4.05 GPA - 1600 SAT/24 ACT: What's A Parent to Do?

<p>Ya know, I believe there are two types of people in the world: people who believe you can divide people up into arbitrary "types", and people who don't. I'm among the latter :).</p>

<p>Myers Briggs has about as much science behind it as astrology does. But, of course, everyone always thinks--wow, I am such a Cancer--I love water and I'm moody. Here's some comments on MB and those types of "methodologies" (using the term loosely)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Once, for fun, a friend and I devised our own personality test. Like the M.B.T.I., it has four dimensions. The first is Canine/Feline. In romantic relationships, are you the pursuer, who runs happily to the door, tail wagging? Or are you the pursued? The second is More/Different. Is it your intellectual style to gather and master as much information as you can or to make imaginative use of a discrete amount of information? The third is Insider/Outsider. Do you get along with your parents or do you define yourself outside your relationship with your mother and father? And, finally, there is Nibbler/Gobbler. Do you work steadily, in small increments, or do everything at once, in a big gulp? I'm quite pleased with the personality inventory we devised. It directly touches on four aspects of life and temperament-romance, cognition, family, and work style—that are only hinted at by Myers-Briggs. And it can be completed in under a minute, nineteen minutes faster than Myers-Briggs, an advantage not to be dismissed in today's fast-paced business environment. Of course, the four traits it measures are utterly arbitrary, based on what my friend and I came up with over the course of a phone call. But then again surely all universal dichotomous typing systems are arbitrary.</p>

<p>Where did the Myers-Briggs come from, after all? As Paul tells us, it began with a housewife from Washington, D.C., named Katharine Briggs, at the turn of the last century. Briggs had a daughter, Isabel, an only child for whom (as one relative put it) she did "everything but breathe." When Isabel was still in her teens, Katharine wrote a book-length manuscript about her daughter's remarkable childhood, calling her a "genius" and "a little Shakespeare." When Isabel went off to Swarthmore College, in 1915, the two exchanged letters nearly every day. Then, one day, Isabel brought home her college boyfriend and announced that they were to be married. His name was Clarence (Chief) Myers. He was tall and handsome and studying to be a lawyer, and he could not have been more different from the Briggs women. Katharine and Isabel were bold and imaginative and intuitive. Myers was practical and logical and detail-oriented. Katharine could not understand her future son-in-law. "When the blissful young couple returned to Swarthmore," Paul writes, "Katharine retreated to her study, intent on 'figuring out Chief.' "She began to read widely in psychology and philosophy. Then, in 1923, she came across the first English translation of Carl Jung's "Psychological Types." "This is it!" Katharine told her daughter. Paul recounts, "In a dramatic display of conviction she burned all her own research and adopted Jung's book as her 'Bible,' as she gushed in a letter to the man himself. His system explained it all: Lyman [Katharine's husband], Katharine, Isabel, and Chief were introverts; the two men were thinkers, while the women were feelers; and of course the Briggses were intuitives, while Chief was a senser." Encouraged by her mother, Isabel—who was living in Swarthmore and writing mystery novels—devised a paper-and-pencil test to help people identify which of the Jungian categories they belonged to, and then spent the rest of her life tirelessly and brilliantly promoting her creation.</p>

<p>The problem, as Paul points out, is that Myers and her mother did not actually understand Jung at all. Jung didn't believe that types were easily identifiable, and he didn't believe that people could be permanently slotted into one category or another. "Every individual is an exception to the rule," he wrote; to "stick labels on people at first sight," in his view, was "nothing but a childish parlor game." Why is a parlor game based on my desire to entertain my friends any less valid than a parlor game based on Katharine Briggs's obsession with her son-in-law?

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<p><a href="http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_09_20_a_personality.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_09_20_a_personality.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Why indeed? Straitjacketing people (even oneself) into types seems like a really misguided process to me. It short circuits real observation of each person's individuality. I dunno, maybe some people find it comforting to join a type (kinda like a club?) but I don't see the science behind it.</p>

<p>Garland, </p>

<p>With a little bit of googling - you could have accessed some true scholarly articles - even posted a couple.. And, guess what? Some, to your surprise, may have been critical of the MBTI - although those mostly involve poor usage of the instrument. </p>

<p>But then, I guess you wouldn't want to do a thorough investigation on the topic - your mind is already made up - and you're not going to let any independent research change your mind. So you post from a blog that reads more like a rant. </p>

<p>Hmmmm. What about the MBTI is so threatening to you? It's just one of many tools available for self-reflection. It's not meant to limit one's knowledge of self - it simply helps one see how one's preferences guide one's choices/behaviors.</p>

<p>A. I didn't google i t; I've read it before.</p>

<p>B. AS soon as something is defended by "why is it so threatening to you?" it's time to head for the doors--it's pod people time. :)</p>

<p>Well, at least, by your posts, you've given everyone a clear example of your type!</p>

<p>Welcome to your world, hmmm? Tautology R Us.</p>

<p>I actually don't find it any more threatening then, say, phrenology.</p>

<p>Garland wrote: "I didn't google i t; I've read it before." Aah - as in reading that which supports your previously held views - or should I say "rereading" that which confirms your previously held views. </p>

<p>Have you ever really tried to learn about the topic?</p>

<p>Actually, I bought into it until I read the article. New facts and insights led me to change my outlook. </p>

<p>What type does that make me?</p>

<p>Hmmm. That depends - if the article you posted was an example of "new facts and insights" it's a pretty narrow thinking "gullible" type. The fact that you reread it and then posted it - what do you think that implies?</p>

<p>Are its facts wrong about how MB was developed?</p>

<p>I find when I've taken this in the past, I've always gotten indeterminant results and/or varied ones. And that was before I decided that the scientific underpinnings are weak.</p>

<p>Why is typing people so important to you? (is that a "type"?) </p>

<p>Anyway, this is pretty much academic to me; if it works for you, it's a way of keeping things in order, I guess. So I'll let you continue on with the discussion...</p>

<p>I really like this book: </p>

<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Personality-Testing-Miseducate-Misunderstand/dp/0743280725/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Personality-Testing-Miseducate-Misunderstand/dp/0743280725/&lt;/a> </p>

<p>It includes great bibliographic references to research literature, from which I learned about a famous experiment </p>

<p><a href="http://skepdic.com/forer.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://skepdic.com/forer.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>which shows that some people (some types of people? ;) ) are very gullible about the results of sham personality tests.</p>

<p>Interesting sounding book, Token. Comes with blurbs from some of my favorite thoughtful writers, Barbara Ehrenreich and Robert Coles. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.</p>

<p>And the Forer Effect is fascinating!</p>

<p>Thanks for the links.</p>

<p>On the College Board web site there used to be, I am not sure if there is now, a version of the MBTI for kids to take to help guide them in the process of thinking about colleges/careers. One year I was helping to organize the 'career day' at our school and we used this to help guide the kids as to which speakers they should see. It was called 'college my way' or something like that. We were looking for way s for the kids to sort themselves and came accross it, this was a few years ago so I don't know if it is there. </p>

<p>I think it is interesting that there are people quickly sharing that they are INTJ's, but not other types. I wonder what else this says about INTJ's.</p>

<p>I think that for kids to understand their style/personality/temperament as yet another element of who they are which might make one college environment more suitable than another is good enough. On this level it makes perfect sense to me- but in fact, most colleges probably have a fair mixture of types, unless they are a technically orieinted school in which case it is likely skewed.</p>

<p>lol when i first read this i thought it was a 1600 for M+V...</p>

<p>a wee anecdote</p>

<p>last year my D and I went to a seminar, and the kids were all very serious about school, very smart, and most were the science oriented types</p>

<p>we did an abreviated version of the meyersbrigg test, and the results were astounding, it was basically the oppostite of how the 'rest of the nation" breaks down, with introvert, and extrovert, and the like</p>

<p>no one was offended and we all actually found the process fascinating</p>

<p>of course you can't categorize people so simply, but sometimes learning a bit about people that don't react or act the same as you is really helpful in communnications, styles for projects etc</p>

<p>when you have a certain style that is just polar opposites with someone you have to work with, knowing a bit about different approaches others may take can make working together easier</p>

<p>Tokenadult, </p>

<p>Each time personality type is mentioned - you drag out your same tired reference to the same book disputing its worth. Have you ever really kept an open mind and researched the potential usefulness of the topic?</p>

<p>I really don't understand such close-minded posturing. Over one million people take the MBTI each year - the vast majority of organizations and individuals find the results extrememly beneficial. Those that do not generally critique "faulty" administrations. </p>

<p>There have been numerous studies linking the application of type to learning styles, selection of college majors, career choice, etc. With the advent of MRI, there are numerous academic studies showing the link between type and brain development. Others actually show different types utilizing different areas of the brain when engaging in the same task. </p>

<p>Why don't you give Jungian theory a chance? Learn more about it. Your children may thank you!</p>

<p>Whether or not one holds hard and fast to the edict of the Myers Briggs or not, you only need to look at your own children, and at yourself, to see that different people have different personality types. </p>

<p>Reading and understanding more about the MBTI (after a cursory overview when I was much younger) has been both extremely revealing and helpful in understanding and appreciating these differences in my own children (and in myself). It makes sense to see that those of us who plan and organize a lot can become frustrated by those who demand more spontanity, and yet those people cannot force themselves to be more rigid and planful. It goes against their natural personality. Likewise, there are those who are enlivened by extremely social existences, vs those that need time alone to think and reflect. I have seen this often, when very social parents have trouble with quiet and shy children and vice versa; these kinds of personality differences often cause conflict if parents try to impose their own way, which conflicts with the natural personality of the child.</p>

<p>I used to think of much of this in terms of "temperament", but whatever one calls it, appreciating these innate personality differences certainly can help parents understand their own children better, and not force them into being something that they're not.</p>

<p>Allmusic, and that's what I always thought. Just common sense about trying to "match 'em up" . I didn't know of the use of MB in academic settings. My W has had it administered for years for some positions at her work - management folks, mostly, and D could have had one at Rhodes career office for a far reduced rate . But, interestingly enough, the folks that administer the tests for her work say that these results can change all through a person's life. (Maybe there is splinter group of M-B folks.) My W says she is a "High I " whatever that is. LOL. I just nodded appreciatively. </p>

<p>I will spend some more time pondering.</p>

<p>Curmudgeon - re "switch-hitting" -- not everyone tests as strongly dominant for personality type. For example, I posted earlier that my son and I are is INTP. (This is all from an informal assessment - my son found a M-B test when he was a high school senior, that we did as a family, each answering separately then scoring & comparing results). But the point is -- on that test my score were very close to my son's, EXCEPT for the T part -- he was very strong T, I was kind of on the "cusp", with a very weak preference -- it's very possible that on a differently administered test that I could have come out F. According to the article that I linked to before, this particular element does tend to have a gender biases -- about 2/3 of males are Thinking vs. 1/3 of females, so that may account for the difference -- in other words, I seem to be more "T" than most women, but I still have that strong pull toward "F". </p>

<p>I do think that some inclinations can change over time, due to life experience, but I think that it is more likely to be gradual changes, as opposed to short term changes of circumstances & environment. What you see with the shifting of styles depending on circumstances is more a matter of how the innate personality style reacts to different circumstances, not a change in style or preference. In other words, an extravert can feel intimidated and act shy in certain settings, but that doesn't make the person less of an extravert -- it's just that the threshold for behavioral differences will vary with the personality style. </p>

<p>My daughter is very much an extravert, but when she went off to live in Russia with a Russian-speaking family, she ended up spending a lot of time alone in her room, and essentially developing a level of introspection that didn't exist before -- in fact she wrote a little about that in her college essay. It didn't mean that her personality changed -- if anything she came home more confident and out-going than before -- but it does mean that it's rather scary for a 16 year old to be 6,000 miles away from home, living in the home of strangers who speak a different language.</p>

<p>Garland, it really doesn't matter what the "science" of personality type is -- the point is that humans have an array of different characteristics which we typically call personality type or learning style. Myer's Briggs is one way of describing and categorizing it. The reason that Myers Briggs seems to hold "true" is that it is NOT like astrology, which is completely arbitrary (e.g., my son must be stubborn because he is a Taurus), but is based on observation of the person's characteristics as expressed during the evaluation (e.g., my son is "I" because his answered most questions in the way that introverted people do -- he focuses more on his inner life, my "E" daughter is more focused on her outer life). So M-B is just a framework for describing characteristics that are fairly easy to evaluate through observation or questioning. </p>

<p>There are different frameworks that one could choose. It doesn't whether it is the "S" part of my daughter's profile that is her downfall on standardized tests -- the point is that when we quit defining things in terms of some imagined "g" or "intelligence" and instead look at personality or learning style, we see that equally smart people can respond to certain situations in very different ways. It is very possible that the the SAT is pretty good at getting at "intelligence" for around 80% of the testers -- hence its presumptive validity -- but that it really misses the mark for about 20%. I'm just guessing at these numbers ... but my point is that it is a very big mistake to assume that standardized tests really tell you all that much about how intelligent or capable a person is. If demonstrated performance or achievement in real life tells a very different story, chances are the test is the part that's wrong.</p>

<p>In any case, personality-typing or learning styles inventories are tremendously helpful for career counselors in helping to guide people in their life decisions, helping them to find work environments where they will be comfortable and where they can excel, and of course it could also be used to help find the best "fit" for a college as well.</p>

<p>Calmom - your example of your daughter's time in Russia is an excellent illustration of how one's behavior may change in response to environment but the preference remains constant. </p>

<p>I just want to add one comment to your analysis of your T. The MBTI is designed as a qualitative instrument. It is not designed to discern quantitative differences. In other words, each question is designed to separate the characteristics it was designed to evaluate - nothing more, nothing less (the theoretical and statistical analysis that goes into the selection of each question and test construct is fascinating for those interested in such topics, btw) </p>

<p>Any female who reports a preference of Thinking (T) can be fairly sure that she is indeed a Thinker. In fact, according to theory, if a woman does not indicate a preference for either Thinking or Feeling, the process begins with assuming her to be a Thinker - for to withstand societal pressure to reflect the F, requires a fairly strong Thinking preference!</p>

<p>But, the results of the MBTI, is merely the starting point for the discernment of one's type. The real definition comes when one reads one's type description and identifies with the characteristics described. For some, the MBTI is essential - for others a more holistic process works better. No one ever forces one into a mold. Each person merely identifies their preferences.</p>