.5 gpa

Parents Forum
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Why is it when you disagree people always seem to read some sort of “anger” into your post?</p>

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<p>Have you bothered to read any of my posts? Maybe the parts where I specifically stated that I was talking about the exams, and not the classes? You can have a fantastically rigorous AP class, that prepares you extremely well for any advanced college work. Merely getting a 5 on the exam tells you none of that. I can tell this merely by looking at exam topics and sample questions, I don’t need anecdotal evidence.</p>

<p>If I am “angry” at anything it is all these kids who get snookered into skipping introductory classes unnecessarily merely because of a 5 on an AP exam. THere are lots of them posting right here on this website who’ve been harmed by this unnecessary acceleration. It is very relevant to this thread because people never think about it. But I can’t count the number of posts I’ve read frm parents or kids who got 5s on the tests, started in some very hard courses for no real reason, and bombed out.</p>

<p>As far as your concern about our local high school, I’m told my kid’s high school has a good AP program, not that it matters. Since you seem to value the score, 907 kids (grades 9 to 12) took over 2000, with 30% getting 5s, and another 29% getting 4s. So it seems okay if you actually believe the scores. I would probably say that despite the decent scores, very few of those kids would be advised to skip intro classes in their major area.</p>

<p>As far as my high school - when I went to school (HS grad in 74) we had precisely one AP course - US History - which I took. That didn’t stop me from walking in and earning 4 or over on four total exams. And I don’t mean “self study” - I didn’t study at all for them, you really couldn’t self study very effectively in those days- there weren’t the prep books they have troday. I mean walking in and getting the scores on senior year AP Biology and AP Chem based on non-AP Freshman and Sophomore Bio and Chem classes. No way in heck I was ready for advanced college chemistry.</p>

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<p>Bovertine, I think your point is a very valid one. I’m sure that is exactly why so many schools will not accept AP credits for the intro math/sciences for certain fields, like pharmacy. I know from my own kids’ experiences with getting 4/5 on the AP exam, but then taking the class at a university, that AP coursework may help but is no substitute for the real thing…and certainly does not make the intro class an easy A. </p>

<p>My D was surprised to find that doing very well in AP Bio helped so little when she took her first Bio class freshman year and she worked her tail off for a B+. Her roomie was allowed to transfer AP credit for Chem I but was completely lost in Chem II and orgo…ended up with a C- in one and had to drop the other. D says there was no lack of effort/class-cutting involved, she was simply unprepared because she’d taken the AP shortcut, and now is starting over from the beginning! </p>

<p>I think AP credits are a wonderful thing…for fulfilling gen-ed requirements!</p>

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<p>^^^
Thanks sk8rmom.</p>

<p>And just to fully clarify, I am not saying that nobody should advance themselves. But they should only do it after carefully considering everythiing they know about their own abilities and the rigor of the courses the are skipping. Just because they will give you college credit for an AP exam doesn’t mean you have to take it.</p>

<p>Math is a course where it can be appropriate to skip a semester or two. In my own case I did skip the first semester - but only because I had already covered the topics of basic differential calculus twice and thought it would be a complete waste of time. I wasn’t so convinced I had mastered the first semester of integral Calc so I started there. It turned out alright, but in retrospect it would have been nice to just retake the Calc I again for an easy A the first semester of college.</p>

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<p>pacheight,
CMU = Carnegie Mellon University
Their CS program is top notch, and very competitive.</p>

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<p>I’ll add another thing to consider. Our kiddo was the FIRST child at her school who was recommended for accelerated math in 8th grade who did NOT take that track. DH made the call. He said that if she wanted to pursue math, she needed an excellent foundation for math skills. So…she took algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2 and precalc…she never took calculus in high school. DH said she would be better served to have this good foundation AND then take calculus at the college level. This is what she did…and it served her well.</p>

<p>There seems to be a growing emphasis on AP courses and credit, and accelerated programs especially in math. This can be great for some students but for others a stronger foundation is needed to continue into higher level math courses.</p>

<p>And NO…DD was never bored or not challenged.</p>

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<p>There’s been lots of arm-chair pyscho-analysis in the Please Help Thread for which I was the OP and a digression on the merit of various CS/Engineering programs and AP exams in this thread.</p>

<p>yes, clearly both families and the S’s in particular need to be honest with themselves about what may have caused the underlying flop and what they plan to do about it.</p>

<p>The short question however is really whether either student should return to school and under what conditions? It’s a balance, the young men need to become independent-- but if conditions are placed-- this becomes parent micro-managing. In our case, our S has sufficient financial aid and external merit, that he can literally borrow what is necessary to enroll in the spring- so the financial connection to his parents is off. </p>

<p>How does the student/parent decide whether to return?
It’s easy to say - yes, I want to go back- b/c that avoids the serious conversation that should occur.</p>

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<p>Other than not studying as much as he should, he doesn’t really know what he was doing that caused his failure.</p>

<p>This is what he’s telling you…but it’s really can’t be true. He knows if he ditched classes, didn’t do his homework, wasn’t paying attention in class, partied too much, etc. Unless he doesn’t have the intelligence to go to college (which I doubt), it’s impossible for him to do that badly in that many classes and not know why it happened.</p>

<p>And, that earlier poster was right…if he can’t honestly and concretely tell you what he did wrong and how it will be different in the future, I’d shut my checkbook. What reason could you have to keep writing checks if he seriously “has no idea”??</p>

<p>My guesses…partying, hanging out with friends, sleeping thru classes, video gaming…and spending little to no time with his books.</p>

<p>I didnt’ see this earlier…</p>

<p>*In HS he was not a great student either. High test scores but didn’t turn in assignments, waste time, etc… *</p>

<p>Sounds like he may need to be tested for ADD.</p>

<p>If he went to a rather “not demanding” high school, then he learned some really bad habits…that you can not turn in assignments and yet still skate thru and pass. It sounds like he never learned any study skills.</p>

<p>You mentioned that he studied about 10 hours per week, instead of 30. That suggests he’s unorganized. Some kids find that by “building in” empty slots in the schedule (instead of having classes back to back), it creates “study times” during the day.</p>

<p>your son needs to understand that high school was a “right,” but college is not. If he went to a public high, then it was free, and that’s no longer so for college. It doesn’t sound like while he was in high school he “earned” the privilege of having money spent on college.</p>

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Maybe a slight digression from the specific thread, but very relevant to the issue of preventing this from happening to other students in the future.</p>

<p>also may be relevant to answering this question -

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<p>As in, accelerating too fast into extremely difficult courses when one should be adjusting to the new way of life in college. </p>

<p>In some cases, even for students already enrolled, the question may not merely be whether to return, but whether to return to the same major, or whether to retunr to the same major but modify the schedule slightly to a slightly more realistic pace.</p>

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<p>OAM - not real helpful I’m sure, but I had a friend in college who had done very poorly in his intro math and science courses (lots of D’s and F’s) and was, when I knew him, trying to retake courses for better grades. He wasn’t doing any better the second time around because he really didn’t want to be sitting there studying. </p>

<p>There was always something better/more fun to do - have lunch, bomb around in the truck, visit friends, have dinner, work on the truck engine, have some beer, etc. I really think he just had this personality that was not suited to sitting still and focusing on calculus and physics problems. It wasn’t that he was not intelligent, and he knew a lot more hands-on things about physics than the rest of us, having been a plane mechanic in the air force for 4 years.</p>

<p>He thought he wanted to be an engineer but he was much happier up to his elbows in grease and motorcycle parts than he was at a desk. </p>

<p>I don’t know what ever became of him in the long term, but I had heard once that he was working in Detroit, so I imagine he figured it out eventually.</p>

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<p>If my child failed THREE courses, they would not be returning to THAT college for the next term. Yes…a hard discussion…but we had that one before the kids LEFT for college.</p>

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<p>Thumper-- my S can return on his own dime. He can borrow a few thousand dollars as his internal and external scholarships give him the luxury of one term probation to turn it around.
It’s not on my dime.</p>

<p>As to APs and acceleration-- there isn’t much choice. If you enter with 5s on Calc, CS and required Sciences, as a CS major, you go to Calc 3 and the next CS class. Your required sciences are done-- so you take enjoyable Gen Ed electives. My S decided to take more math-- and he still didn’t do the work. The course choice was appropriate and consistent with the advisor’s recommendation and that of the peers at Stanford with the same experience in HS /AP results. There was no error in the course selection. His high school was exceedingly rigorous. So that was not the problem.</p>

<p>I have no legal right to “stop” my S from continuing. He should not do so without academic counseling and very likely some form of stress management/pyschological counseling. At this point, he’s too immature, arrogant (as another poster noted) or reluctant to seek the appropriate help.
It’s a heartache to watch someone so gifted be so stubborn, so shortsighted and very likely waste a great opportunity. If he fails out, he will find himself in another life path - maybe a better one? Time will tell.</p>

<p>So I’ll update you all in a few weeks on whether he returns.</p>

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<p>“This is what he’s telling you…but it’s really can’t be true.”</p>

<p>I agree with this, at least in terms of the Fs being a surprise. I’ve never heard of an undergrad STEM course being graded like a law school class (that is, with the whole grade dependent on one high-stakes exam at the end of the course). There are always weekly problem sets, midterm(s), and usually quizzes, too. I’ve also never heard of a student getting consistent passing grades on these and then showing up and bombing the final so badly that the final grade was an F – though skipping the final can do that. So he was either not completing the problem sets/midterms/quizzes or screwing them up. The fact that he ignored smaller failing grades has to be part of the story he tells you, or he’s not ready for more school.</p>

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That’s fine. </p>

<p>But for other students that is obviously not always the case, and in most schools nobody is forced to accept advanced placement. It can cause a lot of problems, I’m not just making this up without any evidence or examples. That’s why I mentioned it. It wasn’t directed at your kid in particular. In fact, I thought this thread started off about another kid.</p>

<p>As far as the specific question of whether a kid (any kid) should go back. I would not pay for it until they figured out the “why” and showed some sign of changing things. If they wanted to pay for it themselves, that’s up to them. I would certainly counsel against major debt in this instance.</p>

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<p>Overachiever…you have a plan for your son that is reasonable. BUT your son didn’t fail THREE courses.</p>

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<p>Required? Not at my kids’ schools. My kids both had AP exam credits PLUS they placed out of courses by taking tests at their schools. In BOTH cases, they OPTED for taking the courses on the college level…not using the AP or placement upgrades. This was a CHOICE they were able to make. In fact, it is a choice for your kids to even SEND the colleges these AP scores.</p>

<p>But that is water over the dam.</p>

<p>The OP to this thread has a kiddo who failed THREE courses supposedly in his high areas of interest and skill. That would not be a return ticket to the college in this family. BUT that is what OUR family would have done.</p>

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This is obviously not science-related, but my D’s school requires placement in an upper level language class if you have a 5 on the AP exam (or 6 on the IB, I think). She felt that the exam grade didn’t reflect her preparation accurately and had no choice of placement in that language, so she choose to begin fresh with a different language for her best chance of real success. So sometimes there are placement requirements.</p>

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<p>Are students forced by Collegeboard to send their AP scores to their final choice college? IF not, how can a college force a student to go forward to the next level?</p>

<p>I really don’t see how a college can really force a student (especially after an appeal) to take the next level, since some med schools won’t accept AP credits.</p>

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<p>I just read this whole thread! Keeping you in my thoughts Stacey, this is a difficult decision that only your family can make. I feel your pain - one in middle school who has the same grades but not from not trying, it makes it even more difficult to understand the disconnect :(</p>

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No, you aren’t required to send the scores. However, ignorant fools like me don’t always realize that credit and placement can be two different steps. In the admission frenzy, we checked out who gave credit for what, but didn’t check further to see what the actual placement would be after credit received. In my D’s specific instance, language is important to her major and she wanted to be completely prepared, so she didn’t feel good about being at the 300 level, but likely would have had to be there based on either the AP scores or the school’s placement test. So for us, the issue was lack of student input and familial ignorance rather, than a real problem with the school.</p>

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<p>OK, more info. My S went to one of the top public HS in the country. Every opportunity given to them. More courses offered than many colleges. He’s lazy but now sufficiently freaked out.
We have had many long talks over the last couple of days. He has gotten a letter from the Dean saying he needs to write a letter of appeal to remain in school. He wrote the letter and it was a good one. One thing he is doing is removing the video games from his computer. I know he can do the work. On a different forum it was suggested that he just had a low IQ. That’s not the case here. Maybe a bit ADD but when he was tested it wasn’t suggested that he be on medication. He has the idea that many of us have-it will all turn out ok in the end. Well he has found there are consequences to his actions. He will have the final decision on the 4th. He would like to go back to the school in order to get the Fs off of his GPA by retaking the classes. We’ll see.</p>

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<p>Stacy…you have done all you can do at this point. Wait and see what the school saye. This is in their hands now…either they will say he can return now, will suggest a leave of absence or they will say no to him returning.</p>

<p>In the meantime, I would explore what this college has to offer in the way of tutorial services for students. Most schools have some kind of tutorial program whereby students needing extra help in a course can request it. If your son is permitted to return, I would seriously discuss his “plan” for managing his time, going to classes and completing the necessary work.</p>

<p>As I mentioned earlier, he is also in jeopardy of losing financial aid by not maintaining Satisfactory Academic Progress (SAP)…if he receives any kind of aid, he could lose it, and I believe this includes the Stafford loans. So check that too.</p>

<p>Good luck to your son…you are being wonderfully supportive in a very difficult situation.</p>