All felonies aren’t created equal. Both law clerks I was working with at a firm had DUIs, felonies, and they had to jump through more hoops for the bar applications, but they did and were able to take the bar exam on time after graduation. Some other crimes, like theft, are crimes of dishonesty and may not be overlooked as easily. There are plenty of criminals who have served time and are still able to become licensed attorneys.
Still, best to avoid crimes.
It probably differs on a state-by-state basis, as well, as to what – if any – felonies can be forgiven/overlooked for the purpose of bar admission.
And the standards for a security clearance (worth thinking about for anyone who might be doing military intelligence?) are very different than the standards for bar admissions!
It is definitely a state by state decision, but it is not impossible for someone who has a criminal record to be an attorney. Law school applications ask the question and will counsel the applicant if they foresee a problem. Major things (like murder) may not be while minor things (like theft) may be a problem.
There was an attorney disbarred in Maryland because he used plugs in a parking meter. That’s a crime of dishonesty, so he was disbarred. Crimes of dishonesty may make it hard for an attorney to have a trust account for client’s funds.
I think that in our State, there may be misdemeanors that could be disqualifying if they are crimes of “moral turpitude”; or it used to be that way, at least. I haven’t had a reason to look at the qualfications for bar admission in a long while, thank goodness!
And while there may be some overlap – and I am making assumptions about what “biglaw” means (big firm? big city? both?) – I suspect that many if not most of the graduates from the schools in this list (certainly the top ones) are going to be practicing law in places such as New York, Boston, Los Angeles, Chicago, or Washington, D.C. that have very high costs of living, and where inflated salaries are necessary to offset and/or compensate for that.
BigLaw means giant in terms of number of lawyers, law multi-city/country law firms (usually in big cities). They pay huge salaries compared to what normal entry level lawyers make (about 80K is normal entry level in my state). You can read more about it on the Above The Law blog. Google it. That blog is a fun read!
Yup, “biglaw” basically means major law firms, in any major market. It used to be that only NYC firms paid the highest salary and other cities were adjusted somewhat for cost of living. At some point, to be competitive in hiring, firms started paying the NYC salary in other major markets as well – Chicago, SF, LA etc. Right now, the 1st year salary is $190k, whether you are in NY or Chicago. When there are law students borrowing $300k, they are betting they will work in biglaw for at least 3-5 years to pay off the loans quickly, and then have the flexibility to make a move to another firm, in-house, or government work where the quality of life may be better but the money is not nearly as good. The challenge for students is getting a realistic understanding of their likelihood of getting those biglaw jobs – fairly easy at the t14 law schools, increasingly competitive/difficult as you move lower in the rankings – in order to pay back those monster loans.
“Biglaw” is frequently defined as law firms with at least 500 lawyers in all offices combined.
“Biglaw” usually pays on the Cravath scale lockstep manner.
Cities with the most lawyers:
NYC
Wash DC (highest concentration of lawyers)
Los Angeles
Chicago
Miami
Philadelphia
Boston & San Francisco are almost equal.
Atlanta
Dallas
Houston
Detroit
Minneapolis
Denver
Seattle
Tampa
Phoenix
Baltimore
San Diego
St. Louis
Pittsburgh
Sacramento
Portland, Oregon
San Antonio
Riverside, California
blossom - that’s helpful for that student to share w/her about the realities of being a federal pros. That being said, there are many, many prosecutor jobs that don’t have those same requirements (state, county, municipal)…
A few random notes. Merit aid exists for law school. Top 20 offer $ to get students who might go to the next school up on the rankings. So, sometimes it is worth applying to more schools to see what offers you might get. Also, there are scholarships for individuals who want to pursue public service law.
On the topic of public service, the top law schools are NOT the same in terms of helping students find careers in public service. Some schools that have great support for finding top big law jobs have essentially no support for finding public service jobs. Since OP mentioned being interested in public service law, highly recommend looking at NYU. They have great public service scholarships and they also have a career center focused on public interest careers. Look at the Root Tilden Kern scholarship (full tuition), but also know that there are many other scholarships for public service at NYU.
Another little tidbit that comes to mind: for lawyers entering big law, the salary trajectory is not necessarily a steady rise over the span of a career. This is because such a small percentage of associates in big law become partners in big law. The majority move on to smaller firms, go in-house, or move to a different type of law career entirely. So, those attorneys may have “New York” associate salaries for 4-5 years, but then see a dip in their salary. I mention this just because it comes as a surprise to some, once they are already deep into their law career.
Biglaw salaries on the Cravath scale for one’s first 7 or 8 years are well publicized:
Below are the lockstep salaries during one’s first 8 years if on the Cravath scale. The salaries shown do not include bonus money which can be very substantial.
Year 1) $190,000
Year 2) $200,000
Year 3) $220,000
Year 4) $255,000
Year 5) $280,000
Year 6) $305,000
Year 7) $325,000
Year 8) $340,000
P.S. Normally, biglaw attorneys receive a year end bonus in amounts ranging from $15,000 to over $100,000. In the current market, many biglaw attorneys are receiving 3 bonuses per year = end of year & two separate retention bonuses.
Agree that very few attorneys make it to partner in biglaw, and that many leave before their 4th or 5th year. But, while some leave biglaw, others switch from one biglaw firm to another. Many attorneys are receiving signing bonuses for switching biglaw firms–especially for corporate M&A transactional practice area. The signing bonuses range from $15,000 to $250,000. And there is no need to bring business with you as many biglaw firms are turning down the very lucrative M&A transactional business due to a lack of qualified attorneys to handle more work.
Assorted updates – “market rate” just went up, increasing from $190 to $200k and, at least one firm has gone to $202.5 for 1st year associates, with a year 9 salary of $365k. Note that bonuses increase as a percentage of salary as a lawyer moves through the associate ranks. A 1st year associate may be eligible for a $15k bonus, a 2nd year for $20k, and by the time one gets to the last year before partnership, it may be $100k.
If a law student paid for law school entirely with loans, to pay back their loans in 5 years (an accelerated pace), would take almost half their monthly take home pay in NY (I know this bc my law school kid has spreadsheets showing alternate borrowing/pay back scenarios). Many “full loan” students go into “biglaw” with the idea of paying off loans at that hyper accelerated rate so they have the career flexibility to leave biglaw by year 5 or so. Of course, the timing of their departure is not entirely in their control because at a certain point, firms will counsel some associates that they are not “on track” and should start making plans for another job. Although – in this heated market, with a bidding war for laterals etc. – firms are more likely to keep productive bodies on staff to get the work done, and make the cuts later. Of course, in a “cooler” market, that “culling” could be more aggressive. I worked through several recessions in biglaw, and those were scary times.
Not sure, but my impression is that the salary of $202,500 is for current first year associates’ stub year (partial year) making the actual first year pay $205,000 at the only firm which has announced this pay level. “Market pay” is in a state of change at the current time.
Many major law firms are paying additional bonuses (essentially retention bonuses) of up to $64,000 depending upon associate year or non-equity/income partner status. These bonuses are in addition to the normal year-end bonus.
As usual, Milbank was the first to announce & implement the new wage scale:
First Year: $200,000 plus bonus (or bonuses such as signing & retention bonuses)
Second Year: $210,000 plus bonus
Third Year: $230,000 plus bonus
Fourth Year: $270,000 plus bonus
Fifth Year: $295,000 plus bonus
Sixth Year: $320,000 plus bonus
Seventh Year: $340,000 plus bonus
Eighth Year: $355,000 plus bonus
Currently, many firms are paying signing bonus money to lateral hires in corporate–primarily M&A–from $15,000 up to a verified $250,000.
P.S. @Midwestmomofboys: What loan amounts are you aware of for those students who paid for law school entirely by loans ? (Seems like it might be near $300,000 as Columbia Law School–a top 14 private–tuition & fees = $78,415. Room & board & transportation & health insurance would probably raise the annual COA above $100,000.)
@publisher – thanks for the correction about the market rate, I hadn’t caught that nuance in years 1 and 2.
When my law school kid was comparing full loan and merit, “full loan” with accrued interest and fees for NY schools where cost of living is highest would be around $350k at graduation. To pay that off in 5 years would take over $5k month in loan payments – roughly 1/2 take home for a 1st year, but a decreasing percentage of take home as salaries increase. Throwing all of a bonus etc. at loans can make a difference, obviously. Interest rates are low now which is great, and the 0% interest for this past academic year during covid helped too in reducing paying interest on interest. Back in the '80s, my law school loans carried 15% interest rate . . . .
If you are comfortable saying, which path did your kid choose? Meaning did they go the full loan route at a higher ranked school, or did they go for merit? It sounds as though they put much thought into this with spreadsheets etc - just wondering what they felt was the tipping point on this type of decision. Also, if anyone is able to elaborate - what areas of law are in most demand at the “big law” type firms? Is it mostly corporate or tax law, or are other niche fields such as international/patent ? Thank you
Just a word of caution with the interpretation of this line…(yes, taken slightly out of context, on purpose.)
Big Law only hires the best of the best, so “many” law students, in fact most law students, have no chance (at making this BL salary). My point is that one should not be a full-loan student with the intent of being hired by Big Law bcos outside of the top handful of law schools (where the class median can get Big Law), at other, lower-ranked schools, one may have to be top decile or even top 3 students to make bank.
IMO, unless one is wealthy, paying sticker with loans for other than Yale or Stanford is a really bad financial decision.
Yes, at the top (12? 13? 14?) schools, students below median gpa can still get market rate firm jobs in good markets for good firms doing good work, though are probably not getting the jobs at the super elite firms in NY.
As you move below the T14, the gpa band for recruiting becomes tighter and recruiting harder.
Davis Polk law firm:
I could be wrong as law firms decide how & how much to pay associates, but my understanding is:
Class of 2021 (stub year, I believe) new associates are paid at the rate of $202,500 for the partial year (October, November, & December) rather than being paid the same for one’s entire first 15 months.
First Full Year: $205,000 plus bonus or bonuses
Second: $215,000 plus bonus or bonuses
Third: $240,000
Fourth: $275,000
Fifth: $305,000
Sixth: $330,000
Seventh: $350,000
Eighth: $365,000
All of the above are base salaries only (does not include year-end or special retention bonuses which would be in addition to one’s base salary).
Some firms list $375,000 as the base salary for an associate’s ninth full year (plus bonus or bonuses, of course).
Senior Associates at many elite biglaw firms are eligible for $100,000 year-end bonus & up to $64,000 as a special retention bonus = $164,000 total bonus compensation for this year.
New, increased base salary compensation scales are currently being determined so “market rate” is still uncertain. Could go to $210,000 base salary for one’s full first year.