@bluebayou - couldn’t agree more. Stats on starting salaries + bonuses at the largest, most prestigious firms in the country can create some unrealistic expectations for students hoping to pursue the law - thinking that they have a good shot at such $$ and factoring that into a decision as to how much law school debt to take on. Those salaries out of the gate are unavailable to the vast majority of law school grads.
I can’t remember if I just thought this or actually ever replied, but I whole heartily agree with your post. Former great students are not necessarily top law students. I was mediocre student through high school and college. The kids in my law school thought I was an idiot. Most of my classmates expected A’s because they working harder than ever before in law school. I barely cracked a text book. I killed it in law school grade wise. The grading format worked for me but not for a lot of people. Worst plan ever to plan on getting grades good enough to get you a big law job and therefor taking out huge loans. You can’t necessarily control it. A good number of your classes are year long classes with one graded item, the final. At least at my school, those grades were numbers. To be in the top 10% you needed not just an A, but a near perfect score on the final, which is in a format you have likely encountered. If you don’t get that right on your first try, its over. There are not enough other grades in law school to ever recover your GPA.
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Would students who have been through UK-based systems for high school and university be used to that kind of thing?
Interesting question. Maybe. I thrived because I am the Queen of the cramming. The kids who were intellectually curious seemed to struggle. I just think being the top of your class is unpredictable. The other thing is that the income drop between big law and the next level down is substantial. The next level down pays easily 100k less a year with no bonuses!
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I think cramming is a successful strategy for passing the bar- but being at the top of your law school class at a top tier law school? Not so much.
The successful BigLaw folks I know epitomize intellectually curious. They absorb things, they think and question, they are logical and meticulous when constructing an argument.
Cramming only gets you so far when you are surrounded by other “great test-takers”, hard-working, top grades/ambitious folks.
Being a law clerk to a federal judge is also considered a very prestigious job out of law school and it pays significantly less than $200k per year. Some people who have $200k in loans may not feel they are able to take a clerkship if they need to get working and pay those loans. A friend did that for one year and then felt she had to get back to the Big Law offer she’d received and get on with her life and career. Money wasn’t the main pressure, but it was there.
Prospective law students can assess their chances for biglaw placement as well as the need for biglaw compensation prior to attending law school based on to which law schools one was accepted & on amount–if any–of scholarship offered / total loans needed.
Among many of the T-13 law schools, biglaw dips below median.
Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati released schedule of new annual base salary which clearly shows stub year (Fall Associates) pay:
Fall Associates: $202,500
1st year: $205,000
2nd: $215,000
3rd: $240,000
4th: $275,000
5th: $305,000
6th: $330,000
7th: $350,000
8th: $365,000 (one thousand dollars a day base salary)
Summer Associates (rising 2nd & 3rd year law students) are paid on a pro rata share of the stub year pay ($202,500).
P.S. This law firm has announced that the above salary scale will apply to its offices in the US, UK, Hong Kong, & China.
If you have not done so already, speak with a Marine recruiter - or better yet, a detailer - about the Marine Judge Advocate program. They may be able to help you with funding law school, like the military does with doctors. Also ask about the training program for the Judge Advocate program. The normal training regime for a non-ROTC or academy officer candidate is the following:
- Officer Candidate School (OCS): This is the selection program for officers, and the goal is to weed out candidates who are unfit to be a provisional infantry platoon commander. It lasts about 12 weeks and the object is to see how candidates perform under stressful conditions (sleep deprivation, DIs getting creative, graded leadership tests, etc.). The dropout rate is around 40%.
- The Basic School (TBS). This six month school trains you in the basics to lead an infantry platoon. It covers subjects like first aid, land nav, weapons, admin, UCMJ, indirect fire, and infantry tactics. The goal is no longer to fail out candidates, but there is still attrition.
- Primary Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) school: In your case this would be JAG school.
I think you would go through OCS/TBS and JAG after you have your law degree, but again, there might be a program where the Dept of the Navy helps pay for your law school. They may also have relationships with law schools that can help with admissions.
Employers love hiring military veterans because they are motivated, goal oriented, can deal with bureaucracy, and they take direction well. There is also a strong “alumni network” of veterans. I was recruited by Ford out of grad school largely because I was a Marine veteran. Marines, particularly, have a strong esprit de corps and look out for each other. That said, why do you want to go into the Marines vs the other services? You could go through the Navy or Air Force and have a lot less stress in your training.
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I missed that you were planning to go into the Marines right after college, and then go to law school. I do not know how that would work; when I went through we had JAG candidates go through OCS and TBS with all the other candidates.
The more immediate questions is what do you want to do in the Marines right out of undergrad? Remember, you have some say in your MOS, but ultimately you go where the Marines needs bodies. You could get your preferred MOS, or you could get an MOS you hate in a garden spot like Guam. There are MOS’ that will give you marketable skills for the civilian world like logistics or aircraft maintenance. You may even change your career goals after serving.
You should do some homework on how the DOD or your home state can help you pay for law school. Make sure you sign up for the GI bill. I had them take $1,200 out of my paycheck over 12 months then received $450/month for up to four years for school. Some states help veterans go to state schools. Illinois had a veterans’ grant program that paid for four years tuition for veterans at a state school. I got my MBA from UIUC and did not pay a dime in tuition.
Another wrinkle is that law firm recruiting varies significantly depending on the economy. If it is a down economy, firms hire fewer associates, making it harder to land a spot at one of the top paying firms. In boom times, those firms not only hire more associates, but take those summer associates out for shows, meals, etc. to entice them to sign on full-time. Unfortunately, the state of the economy is not something a law student can control.
Someone asked about the “hot” areas of law. I don’t know the answer to what is hot at the moment. But, in terms of Big Law, I believe litigation tends to be quite stable. When times are bad, companies still sue each other… Also, many of the highest paying firms have at minimum a corporate and a litigation practice. Those tend to balance each other out depending on the state of the economy. When looking at a career where you have to pay back loans, you may want stable rather than hot.
Note that it is a mistake to stay in litigation in Big Law more than 5 years or so unless you are confident you will make it to partner (and want to do that). The reason is that in Big Law, the associates are not bringing in their own litigation clients. And the type of clients that can afford the fees of these firms (think GE, Microsoft, etc) are not leaving the firm to go with any one attorney who hasn’t even made partner. Why does that matter? A typical path out of Big Law is to be a partner at a smaller firm. Well, the smaller firms are going to want attorneys to bring their own book of business with them. If you don’t have your own clients because your firm’s clients are so big that they are loyal to the firm, not to an attorney, then you have a problem. Another common path - in house counsel - is not as available to litigation attorneys as corporate attorneys. That is because not that many companies are large enough to maintain their own in-house litigation team. Instead they hire law firms…
Yet another random law career note - patent attorneys have traditionally done quite well. I don’t know if the recent changes in patent law have altered that fact. Many patent attorney have degrees in fields of science or technology.
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The hottest area of law for major law firms is mergers & acquisitions.
Capital Markets is also healthy.
Tax is a dynamic area, but accounting firms are the major player in this specialty.
I think Theaterforme brings up an important point - law school is different from undergrad - some folks thrive there, others do not. I know a number of extremely smart people who had to leave law school (grades) and one who ended up in the bottom of the class and did not practice. Prior performance is not a guarantee of landing in that upper tier of your class that translates (in some cases) to really big money at the outset of your career.
The chance at big money out of the gate is just not predictable for many many folks. That’s something to think about when considering taking out big loans…
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There are some interesting studies out there on how to predict success in the first year of law school. (There are a number of studies online - it looks like I am not allowed to link to them here but anyone interested can google and find a collection of the studies under “evidence to support validity claims in law school admission.” Although don’t rely on the summary of the research on the LSAC page - it seems a bit heavily weighted toward the LSAT.)
Some interesting tidbits from the Marks, Moss 2016 study - factors that were correlated with higher performance included STEM or finance degrees; work experience; higher lsat score. Yet, “college quality had decreasing returns.” So… if you don’t get into a quality undergraduate program, maybe you will do well in law school! 
Purely from my personal experience with law students, English majors and philosophy majors seemed to struggle more than most. And the category that seem to have the hardest time are the ones whose parents pushed them to go to law school.
to do well in L1, the student must come in with excellent critical thinking/analytical skills, which is not something necessarily required in many college hume and ‘studies’ majors. I had heard that Philosophy majors did well, however.
I am a lawyer and agree with Gandalf’s posts. I am in New Jersey, which has Seton Hall and Rutgers law schools. While I have known partners with degrees from Ivies and out-of-state schools, the overwhelming majority of partners and in-house attorneys got their J.D.s from those two schools.
As for those high six-figure starting salaries, they come at a price. Big law is really focused on your billable hours and you may be expected to work nights, weekends, holidays and vacations. I worked for one big firm where a partner asked me to work on my first week off in a year. Not fun. I have also known partners who walked away from big firms to start their own firms. They are happier, even if there is less prestige.
IMO CC is a good resource but many people are focused on rankings and I am more interested in fit. I went to an unconventional law school, Northeastern, which has a unique co-op program that provides a lot of hands-on experience while in law school.
No one is saying that everyone should aspire to a T14 or Big Law. The point was that one better consider those chances IFF one is gonna pay sticker with full loans. (need high salaries to pay off the debt)
Typical Rutgers Law grads, for example, start at a salary of $50k (50th %), or $69k mean. Difficult to repay ~$200k of debt on that salary. (slightly less if insate, or more is OOS)
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“Typical” may mean clerking for a judge the first year or two after law school. Excellent experience, which many high-paying firms value and seek, but a clerkship is a low-paying initial job. For people who pursue public-interest work there may be loan forgiveness. My law school had that anyway.
Mom270 - agree - and first year low-ish salaries can also include a variety of very substantive govt work that can then translate into high private-sector salaries…
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Marine Corps JAG has two funded legal programs; perhaps one will work for you:
FLEP & ELP.