<p>Bill0510 -
That is rediculous...whether or not I approve of my son's options (as compared to the others he has...let's not lose perspective here) has very little to do with what he will ultimately choose. I have a very open relationship with my son and I expect him to always make decisions in life based on his desires and knowlege. So why you decide you should bring another thread into this on such a rediculously out of context notion is beyond me</p>
<p>It seems that you are frequently quoted "out of context" by others on these threads. Just an observation.</p>
<p>
[quote]
for him to drop out after 6 weeks for what I consider such a LAME excuse as 'not having a rigorous engineering program' blew my mind.
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</p>
<p>That's a blatant lie. Nothing, and I do mean NOTHING, that occurs during Plebe Summer has ANYTHING to do with academics in general, or engineering in particular.</p>
<p>I'd be willing to bet good money that he simply didn't have what it took to complete Plebe Year and knew it, and now wraps his failure in that lame excuse.</p>
<p>Be a man about it! No, it's not for everyone, but at least be HONEST about it!</p>
<p>Idiot.</p>
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A biotech company finally hired my husband, and he just completed 11 years there. His boss told him that any USNA degree means the person if bright, talented and flexible for job training. God bless that boss!!! He gets it right!!!
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<p>And what company might that be? I'm always looking for opportunities, and I'm already in that industry. ;)</p>
<p>How I'd love to get into the Defense industry, though.... :/</p>
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But not impossible. . .it could be argued that graduates of the Academy are not well adjusted for civilian life.
The U.S. is a civilian-based society [thankfully] and midshipmen lead a very narrow, isolated existence; thus, "overall" Academy graduates are not the best prepared.
[/quote]
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<p>That is the most obnoxiously elitist and steaming pile of horse manure I have ever heard. You haven't a single solitary clue as to what you're talking about.</p>
<p>Not one.</p>
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I am not sure, in any event, how one might define "best" prepared.
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<p>Then you bloody well don't have a single toe to stand one while making your opening declaration, do you?</p>
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Most 23-year olds are not very well prepared for what life throws at you.
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<p>Yeah, I'm sure that a 23-year-old who has just graduated from one of the toughest colleges in the country, driven ships, supervised work groups, and is now being put in charge of 30+ men and millions of dollars worth of equipment (as well as being taught to lead those men in COMBAT) are far less prepared to deal with what life throws at you than some snotty kid who spent for years chugging beer and chasing tail at one of the TRULY great bastions of academia.</p>
<p>Spare me.</p>
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Whether or not a graduate that decides to leave the military ever adjusts to civilian life is also arguable.
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<p>Another crock.</p>
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A one-dimensional outlook on undsiciplined civilians; a superiority complex; an inability to relate to others can be problematic for some.
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<p>No, the problem is the civilian's inability to operate under pressure, make a decision, and stand up for what they believe. They'd much rather let HR or their lawyers handle it for them. </p>
<p>We're not metrosexual. We don't sip tea and converse about the wonderful art collection at the local museum. We don't wax eloquently on the latest stupidity to emmanate from whatever poet is blowing up the skirts of the intelligencia this week.</p>
<p>We think. We move. We ACT. Some people consider that threatening because it exposes them as the ineffectual idiots they are.</p>
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I have been in and out of governmental, para-military employment for many years. I have personal experience with many ex-military, ex-law enforcement types that question the civilian world.
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<p>So what's wrong with questioning the civilian world? Is it perfect?</p>
<p>Also, if you met so many former military, there is no way you can have the opinions you posted above.</p>
<p>I certainly hope you're not filling your kid's head with this claptrap. They need to know you're behind them 100%, not thinking that when they come out they're going to be nothing but some brainwashed robot.</p>
<p>Mamasparrow -</p>
<p>"Congrats to your son being accepted to MIT" - Thanks, we're quite excited.</p>
<p>"He asks on what basis are you making your rankings?" - Well, all college rankings are subjective after all. It is just my opinion and Ill try to explain some of my basis.</p>
<p>We need to separate the other positives that USNA brings to the table if you want to evaluate it on engineering alone. And that includes separating the leadership and hands on experience they will experience after they graduate. We must talk only of the 4-year undergraduate engineering degree to be somewhat objective.</p>
<p>First of all, when my son went on his candidate visit weekend, he was shocked that a whole class of calculus students were stumped on several of the professors questions and in the end, my son answered three of them correctly. My son's high school only teaches AB calc and he just started the course. OK this is ridiculous I know, so lets look more...</p>
<p>University of Massachusetts at Amherst: Usnews ranked #57 in engineering, #104 overall top national universities. A 4-year mechanical engineering student in the top 5-10% of his class will command $60K plus on his first job after 4-years of college, and he will have multiple companies competing at this range. You are just not going to get that with someone out of the Naval Academy after only 4-years, except MAYBE the top 1% of its mechanical engineering grads. Of course this is also meaningless because no one out of the academy after 4-years gets to look for a job! UMASS resources available to the mechanical engineering student are almost limitless as compared to USNA.</p>
<p>Lets now brings in the whole issue of student versus school..
I really believe it is 90% important what the student makes of the opportunities presented and only 10% important as to the resources of the school. Of course if you get the best student in the best school
now youve got some potential.</p>
<p>I also believe that the rigor of the schools core math and science curriculum is key to the success of any engineering programs they may offer. That is why, even though Harvard, Yale and Brown are not the highest rated overall engineering schools, they are tops in the areas they do offer because their core math and science curriculum is top notch. USNA is simply not in the position to have the same level of rigor requirement in their core courses. But that will not prevent a top student from seeking out expansion of their mind and overcoming the academic limitations of one of the finest whole-person institutions in the entire world! That brings back the whole institute theme. USNA just offers so much more than any other civilian institute period. You cant try to single out engineering academia because it is just part of a complete package that each student MUST swallow.</p>
<p>As I and many others have said before Go to USNA for the right reasons .maybe one of them is their excellent engineering program. But make sure the overriding reason is to become a career military officer. We dont need the folks who only want to use the academies as stepping stones and ring knocker providers. That is not why the academy is there. Of course it is not a perfect world, and that is why they only require 5-year commitments after graduation .its not for everyone and not everyone can be the best military officer USNA graduate or not.</p>
<p>Bill0510 -</p>
<p>"It seems that you are frequently quoted "out of context" by others on these threads. Just an observation."</p>
<p>only by you and your "read only what you want to read into it" CC buddy :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
As I and many others have said before
Go to USNA for the right reasons
.maybe one of them is their excellent engineering program. But make sure the overriding reason is to become a career military officer. We dont need the folks who only want to use the academies as stepping stones and ring knocker providers. That is not why the academy is there. Of course it is not a perfect world, and that is why they only require 5-year commitments after graduation
.its not for everyone and not everyone can be the best military officer
USNA graduate or not.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Amen. </p>
<p>Each student must sit down and THINK what they want to do with their lives. USNA is not for everyone. It requires that FIRST and FOREMOST, your desire is to be a NAVAL OFFICER. Not a pilot, not a SEAL, not the next incarnation of Ross Perot. A NAVAL OFFICER. PERIOD.</p>
<p>If that is NOT what they want, go somewhere else.</p>
<p>Would I rank the engineering program at MIT against USNA's? No. MIT is obviously superior. However, if I had to choose between a USNA grad and an MIT grad for an engineering leadership position, now the MIT guy is at a distinct disadvantage. The USNA grad has leadership training and EXPERIENCE that the MIT kid could only dream about.</p>
<p>USNA generates LEADERS, not GEEKS. Both are needed in society, but I'd rather be IN CHARGE any day.</p>
<p>I'll remind everyone to review my thread where I offer advice to the parents. There is entirely too much of the parental chest-pounding that ticks us midshipmen off going on in here. We've even got one yahoo hinting (hell, he SAID it!) that graduates from the Academies aren't all that well adjustable to civilian life.</p>
<p>Get over yourselves! Your kids are fighting to get into one of the finest institutions on earth. YOUR job is to ensure they choose wisely based upon what THEY want to do long-term! They DON'T need to hear how deficient one place is over another or how screwed up they'll be when they get out.</p>
<p>NOW GET WITH THE FRIGGIN' PROGRAM, PEOPLE!</p>
<p>Zaphod -
Can my son come visit you? ;)</p>
<p>Any time.</p>
<p>If he wants to IM me, I can be reached at <a href="mailto:LuisMulet91@Hotmail.com">LuisMulet91@Hotmail.com</a>. He can call me too, if he'd like. That number I can give off-line.</p>
<p>I think you prove my points well enough . . .
You were in the defense industry; why didn't you stay if you loved it so much?</p>
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You were in the defense industry; why didn't you stay if you loved it so much?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe because he simply bloody felt like doing something else. Maybe he got to work closer to home. Maybe because he got paid better.</p>
<p>Either way, what business is it of yours, and what relevance does it have to the subject at hand?</p>
<p>BTW, he got LAID OFF. Reading is fundamental.</p>
<p>Instead of basing opinions of USNA's Engineering Program strictly on rankings in USNews, we went to the Academy and met with the professors in the various Engineering and Science disciplines, and discussed course content; majors in systems engineering, mechanical engin., electrical engin., oceanography, etc. We were reinforced in our belief that they are all first rate. Additionally, our daughter was excited by meeting the actual Engineering professors (not graduate teaching assistants) who would be teaching her at the Academy.</p>
<p>Zaphod: My husband (retired VP of Engineering for a Fortune 50 Defense Contractor) agrees with you in that:</p>
<p>"USNA generates LEADERS, not GEEKS. Both are needed in society, but I'd rather be IN CHARGE any day."</p>
<p>He says that Naval Officers have been some of the best Program Managers with whom he has had the pleasure to work, both in leadership ability and in scientific knowledge.</p>
<p>I think it speaks volumes that every time one of these magazines sticks their noses into the college-ranking story, they are forced to rank the Service Academies off to one side.</p>
<p>We're in a class of our own, and everyone KNOWS it!</p>
<p>Am I proud of my alma mater and her sister Academies? DAMNED STRAIGHT! And with GOOD reason!</p>
<p>USNA's Systems Engineering is up and coming. One of the few of it's type available anywhere! And, an exciting program (according to my son who was exposed to that at NASS and CWV).</p>
<p>MamaSparrow - I totally agree with you on the ranking crap. Someone else started the whole engineering comparison thing. I really don't think there is another school besides MIT that would have a good "chance" of distracting my son from USNA...not one. And that might be only because I've worked there for 20 years and we live only an hour away.</p>
<p>I only used the online rankings to help my son come up with a list of a dozen schools in the geographic area he was interested in. His only exposure beyond normal HS courses is the schools robotics and pre-engineering program, and if it wasn't for that program, he might not have even applied to engineering colleges at all.</p>
<p>One day last winter, he came up to me and asked if the Naval Academy had a good engineering program. I instantly responded...absolutely!...but I also advised him to go there because you want a career as a naval officer followed by a desire to lead in civilian life also. If you just want to be an engineer and invent the next hybrid engine, go to MIT, Stanford....etc. USNA cannot offer the same immediate "engineering" hands on. It is after all, a warrior leadership school!</p>
<p>Once the acceptances are in, absolutely go visit all of the contenders. As long as your daughter chooses from the heart while understanding what she is getting into, she will do fine! She's should have the right heartfelt reason's to get by the tough times, not just a simple can-do motivation.</p>
<p>Would like to comment here: I am a very senior executive at a major financial services company. EVERY service academy grad I know in our company (70k employees) is sought after for their discipline, leadership and capabilities. They are incredibly successful. If I get a resume with any service academy on it, I move it to the top of the pile. It speaks volumes. Thought you would like to know. That my son has chosen this path, makes me incredibly proud but I also know that wherever he ends up, he has an outstanding foundation to build upon. You all do!</p>
<p>Zaphod, could you elaborate on a few things?</p>
<p>When asked if you had the choice between USNA and MIT, you said knowing what you knew now, you would choose MIT. Yet, you say USNA is "impossible" to beat.</p>
<p>Out of context?</p>
<p>
[quote]
When asked if you had the choice between USNA and MIT, you said knowing what you knew now, you would choose MIT. Yet, you say USNA is "impossible" to beat.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It all depends, and I'll admit to being a bit scitzo on this.</p>
<p>If I had had a chance to get into MIT, knowing what I know now, I may very well have grabbed it. I did not do a full Navy career, and I think that the kind of "oompf" an MIT degree in Engineering gives would have had me in a very different place than I am today.</p>
<p>OTOH, the fact I went to USNA has undoubtedly made me a better LEADER, and therefore, that choice was not in error.</p>
<p>It comes down to the same dilemma a high schooler has when choosing between the two: Engineer or Leader? Both have their strengths and weaknesses.</p>
<p>All that said, I still wonder. If I actually was given the chance to do it all over again, would I change anything? I honestly don't know. As I said before, VERY difficult choice. So difficult that it still makes me wonder after all these years.</p>
<p>ETA: Not much of an answer, and if you're looking for a tiebreaker you're asking the wrong person. Only the person who is actually facing the decision can make it, as it affects THEM and no one else. All I can do is give you some insight from one side of the fence.</p>
<p>Well, this thread has been busy today.</p>
<p>I figured I would speak from a kids point of view :)</p>
<p>The Naval Academy (for me) is the best possible college option in the United States. Probably the best option anywhere. It offers everything I want (I understand that this is obvi not the case with everyone, this is where all the tough decisions come in). The fact is that Navy is one of the best schools out there. One can argue exactly WHERE it falls on the list of 100 of 'Best Engineering Programs' but the fact remains that it IS on the list. Thats good! It produced 4 Rhodes Scholars, thats VERY good. It's a good good GOOD school! Not just academically...
Before you can even GET INTO the USNA you need to be well-rounded. The Academy looks at candidates as a whole person....how many other schools (save other military institutions) require you to pass a fitness test or a medical exam. They conduct interviews, require nominations, etc. They take the whole person into account. This being said, the Academy also produces some of the most well rounded people. It's logic- how can you enter as one of the most well-rounded high school students in the country and come out 'narrow-minded' and 'not sociable?' That isn't plausible.
Midshipmen recieve great instruction in academics and leadership. The resources available to them are great. What you get out of your education is what you put into it- same as everywhere else.
Kids go to the Academy because they want to be Officers in America's armed forces. The want to develope leadership skills. </p>
<p>I want to be a leader in our military and if I can get a killer education while I'm at it then that just makes it that much better. :) Just my two cents, take it as you will....</p>
<p>Go NAVY!!! </p>
<p>~Alli</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Naval Academy (for me) is the best possible college option in the United States. </p>
<p><snip></snip></p>
<p>I want to be a leader in our military and if I can get a killer education while I'm at it then that just makes it that much better. Just my two cents, take it as you will....</p>
<p>Go NAVY!!!</p>
<p>~Alli
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Smart kid! ;)</p>