As I’ve said, it may be that at YOUR college, everything was peachy and there were no hurt feelings, no binge drinking, no hazing, etc. But if you would simply accept that not every college is so wonderful, then maybe we wouldn’t have to talk only about the extremes all the time. Why should it be a personal attack on you if some mean girls at some other college snubbed a fat girl? Surely you don’t think this can’t happen.</p>
<p>As to how to do the research, it’s not easy. Looking at the college-specific forums on CC is a place to start–the question gets asked in most of them, and the answers do vary from school to school. You can ask a lot of questions about the social scene if you do a campus visit–try to talk to a number of different students.</p>
<p>I agree with you, Hunt. The campus culture CAN be “snub the fat girls, and what does daddy make” or the campus culture CAN be “let’s just make some new friends and see where it leads us.” Just like the campus culture CAN be “if you’re not Greek, you’ll feel excluded from social events” or the culture CAN be “hey, if you’re Greek, great, if not, there’s plenty to do.” I just find that you can’t talk about this question in the absence of a specific campus to discuss, which is why these discussions go round and round.</p>
<p>I was absolutely doing a satire on non Greeks who disdain or hate people because of a fraternal affiliation. </p>
<p>Hunt: I believe that there is such a thing as “party schools.” The binge drinking and snubbing doesn’t begin (if your child is at such a school) or end at the Row. And if your child chooses to involve themselves in that behavior they will do so whether they are Greek or non Greek. </p>
<p>And no, not every college is so “wonderful” Greek system or no Greek system. That is why people CHOOSE their university. They choose what is important in their dream school. And even after selection there is a thing called the freshman class, who was accepted and how they mesh. And, as far as I know NO college,charity group, Rotary club, city or state is peachy. It’s called life sweetie, and life (and I’m not talking Greek here) ain’t always fair.</p>
<p>Hunt, I have now advised 5 colleges in 4 states over 15 years. They range from ultra-competitive to all-are-welcome schools, on West Coast and the Midwest. I work closely with sisters from the South and East and am happy to convey their own experiences. In this very thread I have stated that even great women sometimes don’t get in at competitive environments. Has a “fat” girl ever been placed low on a chapters invitation sheet based solely on her looks? Pobably. Is it the goal of recruitment, even at the most cutthroat school ever? No.
I won’t argue that sororities are always good, but I refuse to let some of the gross stereotypes that often play here to go by unchecked either. That is why the extremes continue. Why shouldn’t those of us share our own experiences, if only to disprove the obviously false impressions that continue to come up? I like to avoid absolutes because in my many years with my organization I have yet to actually find a rule versus an exception. </p>
<p>As to find out if sorority recruitment is competitive, on greekchat there is a thread that labeled “Schools Where Recs are Absolutely Required”. Don’t rely on numbers alone at any school. The majority of students may not be Greek at one school, but the social life could still revolve around fraternity parties.</p>
Sure life isn’t fair. It should be fair, though. I’d like to think that it could be more fair than it is.</p>
<p>MizzBee, you can’t really “disprove” the “obviously false impressions,” because they are based on reality. You can argue that they aren’t typical, that they don’t characterize the schools where you advise, or whatever you like, but there are just too many contrary data.</p>
<p>Amen to that! My son joined a fraternity last fall at a large southern SEC university where the Greeks have a large presence. He went in undecided about doing so but immediately saw the benefits of having a built-in social circle in a 20,000+ university. Like a lot of people here, I didn’t think too highly of fraternities (though hubby belonged to one) but after seeing the positive impact it had on my son this year, I’ve totally changed my mind and feel bad that I was guilty of perpetuating a stereotype.</p>
<p>It’s a free world, but offering your opinion on something you have no first hand experience at is like offering parental advice before you’ve had kids. Good intentions I’m sure but until you experience it yourself… :)</p>
<p>Hunt, I can “disprove” that girls get CUT from invitation lists. They are ranked, not cut. I can disprove that invitations are only based on looks, wealth or connections, because no group would bother to go through the hassle of actually talking if conversation/social skills didn’t matter. I can also disprove cr*p comments about requiring parent’s tax returns. </p>
<p>So, take my experience as a member and advisor and throw it out if it doesn’t fit your reality. After all, we often dismiss others comments here on CC. We, as a community read daily fights on Duke vs Stanford and Michigan vs Berkeley. If it makes you or your child think about the Greek system and its affect on their campus, wonderful. For those that come away from this with a better idea of how sorority recruitment works, that is great. If some people chose to read the wonderful stories about sisters and brothers that saved lives, fed a community ravaged by a hurricane or pulled each other through depression, parent deaths, academic difficulties, even better.</p>
<p>Hunt, I have said OVER and OVER that sometimes great people don’t get matched. I also know of a lot of wonderful women that drop out when left with sororities that they don’t want. I am just a little tired of hearing that those IN the groups are elitist, catty women who are obviously morally inferior because they wanted to join such a flawed system in the first place. So should we just abolish all secret societies, discriminatory eating clubs, Elks lodges, Masons, country clubs, coops, etc? Heck, while we’re at it, lets get rid of ALL groups where character is judged and where people have discretion to choose members.</p>
It would be fine with me if colleges did this. In fact, some have done so.
And I get tired of stuff like this:
This is just another version of the common, “Oh, poor me! You criticized me, so you must think I’m a terrible, evil person!”
Perhaps if you would also say that there are bad chapters that don’t live up to the ideals of the organization, your defense would be more credible. If you did say that, and I missed it, I apologize.</p>
<p>Well, you may think I am a terrible, evil person. At this point, I don’t care. </p>
<p>I guess the reason that this particular argument has angered me so much is because this thread was meant to highlight a few positives and you wouldn’t just let it be. You could have started a separate thread to highlight the evils rather than cr*p on the positive stories that were shared here.</p>
<p>MizzBee - I agree with you. One thing D1 did learn was what to say and when to say it to get her point across and not be offensive. It is serving her well at work.</p>
<p>And finally, Hunt, yes there are bad chapters. Why do you think that I have dedicated far too much of my adult life working with various chapters. If the standards were easy to come by, there would be no need for advisors. We would spend all of our time on a porch reliving the old days rather than having “the talk” about matching shirts and acceptable hemlines, and I would hang out with my family rather than argue with a new president about the definition of clear water.</p>
<p>In at least some houses, this was the case as far back as the mid-60s. My house was almost 50% Protestant and almost 50% Jewish. Our president? One of the two Catholics in the house. And at my smallish eastern all-male LAC, there was tremendous competition among half a dozen or so progressive houses (out of 21) to recruit the very few blacks on campus. Times they were a-changing.</p>
<p>Well, I think that’s precisely what Hunt is looking for. He understands that not every system is Animal House or How Blonde, Rich, and Thin Are You. He gets that it’s different, generally speaking, from college to college.</p>
<p>But talking about that without mentioning specific colleges is rather like talking about the importance of fit and how some colleges are nerdy and others are quirky and others are conservative and others are jock-y and others are party schools without mentioning specific examples. So, let’s get down to brass tacks.</p>
<p>What are schools in which the Greek system is down-to-earth and generally welcoming to all comers and the vast majority of girls can find a spot and be happy, versus what are schools in which the system is highly competitive, recs and legacy and knowing what’s up count for a lot, and a relatively large number of girls are left without a spot at all? </p>
<p>I feel like we’re all being coy here because no one wants to call some other school out, so I’ll start.
Indiana’s system is such that the number of girls is limited by the physical size of the house, so there are tons of girls chasing very few spots. Not cool.
From multiple personal anecdotes, getting into the “right” sorority at SMU is so important that if you don’t get in, you drop out of school. Not cool.</p>
<p>There have been other threads in which somebody would ask, “Should I be in marching band in college?” This can be a significant question, but it matters a lot whether you are talking about Ohio State or Rice.</p>
<p>Does anybody disagree with the proposition that any kid who might be interested in joining a fraternity or sorority should take a close look at how the Greek system actually operates at the colleges he or she is considering?</p>
<p>Nope, not at all. And I submit that a college that has one of the over-the-top, worst-stereotype Greek systems we’ve been talking about is probably a college I wouldn’t encourage my children to attend, regardless of whether or not they were interested in going Greek. Because that says there is a significant, critical mass of students on campus who think that way, which is unappealing even if the Greek system went away tomorrow.</p>
<p>Hunt…that I agree with you absolutely. If Greek is one of your defining criteria in choosing a college you should do some research.</p>
<p>My DD currently has Alabama at the top of her list, and she really wants to participate in Greek Life. (she has seen her sisters great experiences at her college) However, she is choosing UA based on the school, and knowing full well that she may not make it into a house as we are OOS and really don’t have many people who we can get rec’s from. Yes we have done the research, we know that it is one of those ‘tough’ schools.</p>
<p>But UA is her top choice as a school first and if she did not make it into the the Greek system she would still be very happy there.</p>