<p>It never did and it never will. What it does, career-wise, is put you in a different classification of employee where your odds are better. The only thing a degree directly “confers” is the fact that you won’t be held back from that promotion or job for not having one. </p>
<p>Assuming you are not in a position to inherit a lot of wealth, the rest of your financial security is going to come from some combination of hard work, intelligence, technical job skills, social and economic astuteness, and often a dose of just plain old good luck.</p>
<p>Miami: it is not an incorrect statement for my region. My kids used college textbooks for about half of their high school classes and learned things in AP Chem, AP Physics, AP Calc BC, etc. that my DH (a chem engineer), and our well-educated technical friends (in IT and sciences) from India didn’t learn until college.</p>
<p>However, their preparedness in math was not up to what it should have been, IMO.</p>
<p>Not incorrect for our region either, although weeder courses at elite schools can be rough for some students, and not because they were not adequately prepared. Sometimes students have taken on too much in their schedules and with EC’s, or have not gotten assigned to a capable TA, etc. It is not unusual for students who struggled to match the curve in gen chem at an elite school to find a summer course in organic chemistry at another school (including the higher-ranked state schools)to be a breeze in comparison, and not just because it is a summer course.</p>
<p>I am generally blown over by the levels of accomplishment among our most talented high school seniors, compared to where we were at a similar stage of life.</p>
<p>I know a lot of professors, a huge number, at a wide swath of schools. Everyone laments that “kids these days” (ha), at least speaking of the average (not the top students), look MUCH better on paper than we ever did, but they are simply not as strong as they were a generation ago or a decade ago. Everyone does AP now, because everyone does AP now. But the pace, rigor, density of a college level course is typically much higher than what kids are used to in highschool, regardless of which concepts were covered or textbook used. IB programs are the exception, and hands down they are invariably on par with the rigor of a university program. But throw in way too many “AP” courses, along with serious grade inflation, hand holding, and the like, and it seems many aren’t prepared in other ways as well to flourish in a university setting.</p>
<p>“Several economists, including Paul Krugman, have begun to argue that post-industrial societies will be characterised not by a relentless rise in demand for the educated but by a great hollowing out, as mid-level jobs are destroyed by smart machines and high-level job growth slows”</p>
<p>I bet we could even get a computer to learn how not to quote Paul Krugman out of context.</p>
<p>AFAICT Krugman has not suggested folks not go to college, or that things were great for non college grads. He has said that increasing the numbers who attend college will not resolve the income inequality issues in our society - compared to restoring the social safety net, trade unionism, etc, etc.</p>
<p>Interesting discussion. 20 years ago my Econ. professor stressed that the U.S. was rapidly moving toward a service economy. NewHope (#17), your post is right on. There will always be innovators out there willing and able to use their talents to “build a better mouse trap”. The law of supply and demand will always come into play—can’t get away from it. The trick is to find out what society is demanding, then get training/education to fill that demand. This takes YEARS, if not decades, but there’s no sense in whining that nobody wants to buy your wagon wheels…Oh, and we need to restore a sense of pride in our products and services. The folks that put out quality are doing well.</p>
<p>It doesn’t help that there has been a proliferation of low rigor AP tests (which are less likely to be accepted for subject credit, or represent only a semester or less of university level work but are usually given a whole year in high schools), and that it seems common these days for high schools to slow pace things like calculus (i.e. forcing the top math students to take calculus BC over two years instead of one). So the longer list of AP courses/tests may look more impressive than the shorter list of AP courses/tests taken by a student a few decades ago, but may not really be more rigorous (e.g. the student a few decades ago may have taken calculus BC over one year after completing precalculus).</p>
<p>Actually, there are no contradictions between the two statements:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>With the repeated efforts to separate bright kids (read easier to educate) from the “rest” by building Shangri-La schools in wealthier suburbs and restricting access through insidious economical (and mostly racial) discrimination, the system had created separate classes of schools … a enormous slight to a system that PRETENDS to be for the common good.</p></li>
<li><p>When the restrictions cease to work on a geographical basis (meaning some undesirable find the way to emigrate from the rotten urban districts) the second wave of effective discrimination takes places by creating a school-within-a-school and implement “advanced” programs that will again allow to separate the wheat from the proverbial chaff. Those measures are particularly attractive to teachers who can address a less unruly and challenging class, and to parents who understand that there is a lot more behind the simple acronyms such as IB and AP. It is the closest an education paid by the public coffers will come to the fancier attributes of a private school, but without the EXTRA burden faced by families who pay for private tuitions. </p></li>
<li><p>Those two elements allow for a system that IS still massively retrograding as it has through the past six decades of hollow excuses and concessions to negative forces. The extent of the abysmal success (or failure) has been obfuscated by appeasing the richer and more vocal constituents who could vote with their feet and practice school choice through social mobility. </p></li>
<li><p>The real story of public education is not told in rich suburban districts that can afford a 500,000 a year cartoonesque superintendent driven around in a limousine! It is told in the urban desolation of Detroit or Flint, in the remote indian reservations, in the gang-infested areas of Los Angeles. That real story is one of failure, corruption, and missed opportunities to do the right thing when we had a lot more means and resources.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Not “everyone” takes AP’s around here. Everyone interested in elite college admissions does, but that is the minority. Tracking for many of these classes begins in 4th-7th grades, so late bloomers and lower-achieving students are excluded. Even so, there simply aren’t enough sections offered to meet the demand, thus students have to submit an application and be accepted to the class. Also, this year the parents in our high school are being charged a fee for each AP class taken (not for the test, for the actual class)–presumably to cover the extra salary that AP teachers get paid for taking on a supposedly heavier workload.</p>
<p>In theory, the coursework for each AP, in each hs, is supposed to be approved by AP “central.” A move toward a semblance of standardization. Fine, but how many college professors are similarly monitored or regulated when desiging a class? Even in the basics.</p>
<p>Yes, the curricula are standardized. But that does not mean that an AP syllabus actually represents a full year of university level work; many of them represent only a semester (e.g. psychology, statistics, environmental science, calculus AB) or even less (computer science A, microeconomics, macroeconomics) but are often taught as full year AP courses in high schools. And the common practice of spreading calculus BC over two years is another case where high schools make AP less rigorous.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Common freshman courses like math, English writing, economics, chemistry, and physics are often prerequisites for more advanced courses. Faculty teaching and designing such courses have to include sufficient material and rigor because students completing those courses are expected to know the material well enough to use it as needed in the more advanced courses. (Note that these courses are commonly called “weeders” for this reason.)</p>
<p>Has there ever in human history lived a generation of middle-aged parents that did NOT bewail the low and lamentable state of the current younger generation? After several hundred consecutive generations of nothing but sad decline you would think we would have hit the rock bottom of total illiteracy and ignorance by now.</p>
<p>"And the 24/7 instant news phenomenon means that there is even more pressure to make political positions into sound bites instead of carefully considered and explained opinions. "</p>
<p>Don’t be fooled - “sound bites” are VERY carefully considered (and tested and focused grouped).</p>
<p>Yes, they are carefully considered to mislead. On the other hand, people are less likely pay attention to a longer explanation of a more complex concept, problem, or solution.</p>
<p>In 2011, I think the average cost of a new car is around $29,500.</p>
<p>Also, for a public 4 year university, the average tuition and fees are $7, 605. So for four years you get around $30,000.</p>
<p>The average amount of student debt is around $22,900.</p>
<p>The average amount financed for a car loan is around $24,000 (in 2007).</p>
<p>So roughly comparable. But then, it may not be exactly comparable because it’s hard to know the average salaries of those who do take out the average amount of loan vs. the average salary of a college graduate who is 22K in debt.</p>
<p>But I agree with you that a lot of this loan stuff has been sensationalized.</p>
<p>ucb- I don’t have the faith in AP- excpet perhaps in STEM. I don’t see the syllabus approval as standardization- more like a semblance of it. Too much variation in how the actual classes are taught. But, of course, that’s true in college, too. As you noted, different hs treat APs differently. I am even aware of some where 2nd semester is the test prep. I highly doubt that an AP in an underesourced hs is anywhere near the quality of one at some elite. I am also in that group that is leery of the associated standardized tests.</p>
<p>Btw, after DH’s college course descriptons (for the catalogue) are approved, no one reviews or approves his syllabus- even for intro level.</p>
<p>Yeah, I forgot to add that it’s hard to know how many people are taking out that much car loan debt versus how many people are taking out student loan debt. I’m sure there is much more student loan debt overall.</p>