A year ago, what did you really expect to pay for college?

<p>garland, I know you are in the trenches with kids who have to make do with less than the middle class. So I'm not going to discount their struggle. I lived it, afterall. But I know of poor kids going for free to schools in our backyard like Montclair State, Kean, Bloomfield, Feliician, Rutgers Newark....</p>

<p>Yes, their families really have to budget to give them carfare or pay a book bill. I know it's tough. But so is a middle class family's struggle to pay a $45,000 tuition/R&B bill. Again, like anxious mom, I always say "There but for the grace of God go I." I expect I'll be blessed in a couple years deciding whether to pay full rate at D's dream school or less at the second choice with some merit $$$. I'm aware that this is a more pleasant choice than the truly poor make every day in a wide variety of financial decisions that I don't even have to think about.</p>

<p>maybe a few kids are on a ride to the private NJ schools mentioned, but I doubt many are, unless they got into Princeton. The chances of being prepared for an Ivy with an endowment to offer a free ride is much, much lower for a kid from Newark, Irvington, Belleville, the endless poor, small S. Jersey schools than it is for a child at Lawrenceville School (private) or from Chatham were (I think this is correct) 95% of the parents in town have a college education.<br>
We've lived most of our married life in a small house in a blue collar and diverse neighborhood, 1 block from a high crime town. MY EFC is only 1000 more than my taxes -which are pretty darn low. You know what..we live like kings compared to the poor here in town. Anyone who thinks medical and dental care is like the easy available services you get when you pay is mistaken. Call up and say you are out of money and have no health insurance. Call clinics, UMDNJ etc. Find out how many months to be seen. Go to a clinic dentist once. Sit in an urban hospital clinic for the day.<br>
btw, if you log onto the Newark Star Ledger or your local urban paper you will see that rent is often as high in a poor urban area as in suburbia. The poor lack the deposits, rental fees etc to get a new place and often they lack transportation from a better area to their work.
To the people who say they understand, but...they feel grateful, but..
Adding but is just another way to say NO.</p>

<p>OldinNJ, I've worked as a RN in clinics. Friends work in Newark ERs. I am far from oblivious. I've seen long waits, but I've seen an equal number of angry parents demanding a full range of immunizations be given at once to a five year old so he can be admitted to kindergarten. Too busy to get free immunizations????? I've seen nurses chip in for a private ambulance for the dad who couldn't afford to pay for his kid's transport. Medicaide patients are not refused that service; just the working poor. I've been told by a patient's mom that a follow-up visit to the free clinic won't be possible because the family is going to Disneyworld next week. I've seen state-of-the-art OB/GYN care discontinued by a respected hospital because they feared lawsuits from advocacy groups if the treatment wasn't offered to medicaide patients. I've seen ward-style hospital rooms abolished because of that lawsuit fear. You make it seem as if the poor face medical care obstacles like the people in Cuba! In reality, there are many public health advocates working successfully for the poor. The abuses and shortcomings come from all sides.</p>

<p>Don't get me started here. H sees it all the time. Happens to work closely with the poor. How many poor do you know that live near central park paying $200/month with some spectacular views of the city! All have cell phones, plasma screen tvs, etc. He gets to see it all. I'm in health care and trust me the working poor have it the worst. There is plenty of emergency medicaid for illegals but a poor working person will get the bill. </p>

<p>We are both fed up. What makes it harder is when you ask the feds for some of your hard working money back to send your kid to school and it spits back an efc of more than starting salaries. Every penny I have I have earned!! </p>

<p>I don't even understand what the feds have to do with higher education anyway.</p>

<p>"mini, the Rojanos can send their kids to an Ivy for free. I'm not envying their hard circumstances, but I think the truly poor are well taken care of in terms of college costs."</p>

<p>There are fewer Pell Grant students at Ivies than 15 years ago, and there is less economic diversity than 25 years ago. But if you have an admissions letter for them, I hope you'll pass it on. ;)</p>

<p>(To be fair, the Ivies are irrelevant to the educational life of the nation, and if they disappeared tomorrow, other than for the 3%ers, hardly anyone would notice.)</p>

<p>"But so is a middle class family's struggle to pay a $45,000 tuition/R&B bill"</p>

<p>There are NO middle income families struggling to pay $45k tuition bills. Doesn't exist. Not with a national median family income of $53k. I'd even venture to say that there are virtually no upper middle income families below the top 20% ($92k) struggling to pay $45k costs of attendance. (There may be a couple, but only those with assets that go WAY above those usually associated with a $92k income.) The odds of them existing are even lower than those of Rozano's kid attending Harvard.</p>

<p>"(To be fair, the Ivies are irrelevant to the educational life of the nation, and if they disappeared tomorrow, other than for the 3%ers, hardly anyone would notice.)"</p>

<p>mini,</p>

<p>I respectfully disagree. I didn't attend one, but they are certainly the educational benchmark for all other institutions of higher learning. I think they would be severely missed by the entire world in terms of setting an example for excellence in education, as well as progressiveness in diversity and economic opportunity. (Not to mention American history and tradition).</p>

<p>"as well as progressiveness in diversity and economic opportunity"</p>

<p>Huh? Did I miss something? I don't see anything in the data over the past 30 years so indicating. I mean I am glad (very glad) they offer opportunities for some low-income and minority students to attend. I really am. Seriously. But an example???</p>

<p>Anyone who thinks the future of this country is residing in the Ivies (or perhaps even all of the private schools combined) needs to get out a little more. OK, a lot more. Unfortunately, it's not a pretty picture out there, outside our neighborhoods.</p>

<p>mini,</p>

<p>Perhaps you (and maybe weenie, too) have become too cynical. I mean really, "nothing in the data in the last 30 years?" What were you looking for that you didn't find?</p>

<p>weenie,</p>

<p>Not sure I get your point... Is it that since outside your neighborhood "its not a pretty picture," then somehow the Ivies are responsible for that?</p>

<p>It is a shame that the choices for our kids' undergraduate education is based on money. In many parts of the world, the government schools are the best, and the cost for the best is much, much more reasonable than our system. I don't disagree for a moment that those who are on the low end of the economic scale have it much more difficult than those higher up. The fact that a kid from that background could get a free ride to Harvard does not mitagate the many issues and hardships that such families face, and those few kids who do manage to get into a school with a full financial package are very much the exception. Just looking at the numbers of kids who qualify for Pell grants in the top schools show a sobering reality about the likelihood of low income kids having such opportunities as going to a selective college.
But one can still complain about ones' own quality of food, even when working with the starving. The fact that YOUR meal does not meet a certain standard is still valid even if you can see how lucky you are to have food at all. So it is with those who have the high EFCs. They certainly know they are lucky to have the income that generated those numbers. And they certainly are not about to lower their EFCs to get a shot at those free rides to Harvard (that can be done in short order, you know. Quit that job and give away your assets a year or so before your kid applies to college). Where the complaints lie is in the terrible cost of college for one's child to go to what are considered the top schools. </p>

<p>It is natural and right for a family to choose housing in areas that are clean, safe, and in good school districts. This is a home, and it is perfectly understandable that this should be an optimal environment for a family and the way it lives. There are many varying degrees of luxery, but many of can sit down and pretty much tell what is a true luxery, and what is really an amenity that enhances family life. I do not particularly admire families who would squeeze their members in tiny apartments in unsafe areas pinching every penny 50 times so that they have the money to send a kid to Harvard as that is the most important goal for the family. I would not want a parent to sell his kidney or cut off his arm or endanger his health working too many hours at stressful jobs for that purpose either. There is a balance that is important to be met for the welfare of all. For a family making very little money where things like food, health or shelter are threatened, there is a necessity to lower standards of living just to survive. When you have the money, it can become unconciounable to lead a dismal life so that you have the option of sending a kid to a top college. It should not be that important of an issue. </p>

<p>As you move up the income charts, the ante goes up. You are expected to provide health insurance for your kids, your yard should look respectable, your house in good repair. It is a delicate balance to be living comfortably within your means, and yet putting away the recommended amounts for emergencies,expected future expenses (maintenance of house, replacement of cars), retirement and college. When you live in a high housing cost area with adverse possibilities when you cut too much in that department, the balance becomes even more difficult. Though I am not crying any tears for those who have been making 6 figures, I will say that it is not easy. And though it is easy to say to those who have a house that has appreciated, to borrow against the equity, many with lower incomes, many needs, going to find another mandatory payment difficult if not precarious to make. Selling a home may not be a wise move when housing, in general, in that area is high and scarce, and there are still other children at home.<br>
I think a good part of the problem lies in the plethora of articles insisting that YOU, yes, YOU may not only be eligible for financial aid, but a lot of it. I see too much out there suggesting that there is money all abound, when the truth of the matter is that someone making a set amount with so much in assets is likely to have an EFC of $X and a expected IM contribution of $Y when the numbers are run through FAFSA and PROFILE calculators. The average student going to the top X desireable private schools gets $Z in merit money with no merit packages given at Y schools. Forget the, "she's so smart and talented she's going to getta scholarship". Not likely, unless the family casts a wide net and considers schools that are 3rd and 4th tier. I just talked to a Dad today who still is counting on his daughter, a wonderfully bright young lady, starting high school, getting money to go to NYU or Columbia. The fact of the matter is that living here, she is going to have a very slim chance getting into either school, and, as for money, well, I don't think so.<br>
The complaining, the expectations, the hardships makes it a real question whether the pricing of our top colleges is "right". Should cost be such an issue it is these days? With top schools costing into the $55K range, more and more families are going to be hit harder with the cost issue. Those truly wealthy will glide into these cost levels, with getting their kids in being the only focus. Those who cannot afford at all, can only hope that the financial aid packages bring the amount to a point where the kid can borrow and work for the costs. Those in the middle range will be increasingly squeezed in making decisions on whether current lifestyle often including other children can be lowered reasonably and whether it is right to all in the family to lower it to a level to afford college at these costs.</p>

<p>
[quote]
In many parts of the world, the government schools are the best, and the cost for the best is much, much more reasonable than our system.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That would be true of National Taiwan University, certainly. But it's a tough school to get into. You have to do very well on a two-day series of tests on multiple subjects to have a chance to get in. </p>

<p>What voters and taxpayers and parents and college administrators have decided, in the United States non-system of higher education, is to have lots and lots of kinds of colleges (some of which are never, ever discussed here on CC) with lots and lots of levels of quality, selectivity, and cost. And the amazing thing is that in a lot of other countries in the world that is what is happening too: an increasing diversification of postsecondary educational options, with increasing diversity in whether those are funded by parents paying for their kids' studies, or the government providing nearly full rides through tax subsidies. That's the way things are in Taiwan these days too.</p>

<p>C, your post #70 makes perfect sense. I remember the acceptance to NYU with no money, and asking the high school college counselor her opinion of the value of NYU as compared to other acceptances, and if I should consider paying for it. She had 20+ years experience in college counseling in high schools (not a guidance counselor - 100% of her job was getting the seniors through college admissions) - and she told me that the days of the parents "mortgaging the farm" to pay for college were "long over"; this doesn't happen any more. Her reasoning was based on the availability of funds from other schools, but also, the ticket price in her opinion wasn't worth it. </p>

<p>Your post also reminds me of high school decisions - D and I went on a site visit to the two catholic high schools prior to applying; one of them, the parents were generally persons of great, great wealth - very high net worth individuals. Field trips to Europe etc. appeared to be the norm, and, the ECs were things that - well - so very expensive, I simply could not imagine that I could afford, especially not with the mystery of college expenses looming in five years. But of greater concern, I could not imagine how my daughter could possibly be happy and make friends, considering that she would be so far outside of the other student's socioeconomic group. She would surely be an outcast, and miserable, I reasoned. No way could I keep up with two- parent families who own million dollar homes, etc. So instead she went to the other catholic high school, with working class parents and students more like her, and had a wonderful, happy four years. </p>

<p>So I wonder how that impacts the < $60K students who get accepted to Harvard. I wonder how they fit in, and how they manage to form relationships and friendships with their peers, many of whom are certainly very well off. To my way of thinking, college - in addition to all else - is also the environment where the young person is supposed to form the relationships, bonds and connections that will support and augment adult life and career. What happens when those four years are over, and the general student body of a school like Harvard goes on to - well, wherever it is they go on, and the $< 60K - where do they go? Does that Ivy degree help them steer a course out of poverty?</p>

<p>Bay,
My point is the enormous numbers of uneducated, or undereducated, largely urban minority and rural kids/young adults are the invisible "future" of this country. I believe that the resources that are put into educating them (or not, as the case may be) is much more likely to dictate our future at this point.</p>

<p>I think it's clear from the the apparent track of our world competitive level that simply educating the relatively well-to-do (the status quo) isn't going to cut it.</p>

<p>cpt, your post perfectly sums up the factors that create the middle class squeeze. Very thoughtful.</p>

<p>LTS: My D's all-girl Catholic draws from extremely wealthy areas. I can honestly say wealth has not been a barrier for friendships. When she chose this school, she was reminded that she'd be mixed in with super wealthy girls. That fact didn't worry her at all. I am in awe at some of the homes I've dropped her off at for sweet 16 parties, but she's not been excluded from anything. Neither have girls who are getting financial aid to attend. Some of these parties involve Hummer limo trips to fancy outings. D's will be a casual gathering of girlfriends in the backyard for a bar-b-que. Set up a volleyball net. Toast marshmallows at the fire pit. That's more our style. At her school, the girls seem to have formed the tightest groups based on academic standing. Not intentionally, but because the girls who are in the highest honors courses are thrown together quite often for class. Sports teams are also a bonding opportunity. Neither smarts nor sports are dependant on income.</p>

<p>Last year, very few graduates attended Ivy schools, even though many had been admitted. I'm suspecting that even the very rich are "doing the math" and deciding that the outlandish costs are not returning the value they expect. At least at D's school, top students are seeking & winning merit $$$ elsewhere.</p>

<p>cpt, well said and from a point of view that is very much our family's reality.</p>

<p>
[quote]
A year ago, what did you really expect to pay for college?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How about a different question: </p>

<p>"17 years ago, what did you expect to pay for college?"</p>

<p>"And even addressing the property tax issue--I live in a house, I pay property taxes, I think they're ridiculously high at 5000. Until I see what you all are paying. Which leads me to believe you are probably getting a lot back which I don't, like the socalled competitive schools."</p>

<p>My property taxes are low (NYC), about 3800 per year, but the schools are mostly sewers. My sister lives in Bergen County and pays 22,000 but the schools are fantastic. We make around 200k and live a nice, comfortable life with the things we want and need. We are not, however, rich, because to make that income my husband works two jobs (he's a sanitation worker and stockperson) and I work a lot of overtime at my job as an administrator in a law firm. If we didn't work so hard, we probably wouldn't even have a house. We don't expect anything to be given to us, but we'd like much less taken from us.</p>

<p>
[quote]
How about a different question: </p>

<p>"17 years ago, what did you expect to pay for college?"

[/quote]
Great qusetion, Dad. When we sat with a financial planner 15 years ago, the projected cost for the average four year private college was $100,000. He was way off.</p>

<p>Current tuition and fees at New Jersey Institute of Technology: $10,506</p>

<p>Cost in 1976, when I entered as a freshman: $650. </p>

<p>Quite a jump in 30 years. Probably more dramatic for the privates.</p>

<p>
[quote]
When we sat with a financial planner 15 years ago, the projected cost for the average four year private college was $100,000.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thanks for putting that into the discussion. I hear you in noticing that LIST price for many, many colleges over four years is more like $170,000+, but, really, how many students are paying list price? Don't an awful lot of students either get </p>

<p>a) "need-based" reductions in list price, even for families with incomes above $100,000 per year, </p>

<p>or </p>

<p>b) "merit" scholarships (= discounts on list price) </p>

<p>such that the family doesn't actually pay full list price out of pocket? How many people are really paying full list price at a very pricey school?</p>