About being pressured to drink/smoke...

Transfer Students
61

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Clearly Citan, jassi, and crew see the picture differently than most. Listening to a list of people tell him "yeah sure, dude, you don't have to do drugs, we'll just do them all for you" is not really helping. His reasons for departing from that lifestyle deserve to buttressed by those who understand his line of thinking.

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<p>We weren’t saying that we would do all of it for him (or his friends would...), we were just saying that usually most people at college, who don’t have intentions to deal with the person, that to offer drugs is generally only a kind gesture (yes, drug users are can be nice people too! wow) and to not accept isn’t a big deal as the offeree pays for the drugs and wouldn’t want you doing it if you’re not going to get pleasure from it, unless he is a jackA. </p>

<p>What we, or at least I, were telling him was that simply saying "no" just like we were taught in school (!) works. No one is going to force you to do drugs, and if you hang out with people that would force you, then get new friends as if someone will force you to do drugs they are likely to force you to do other stuff as well and you should probably stay away from them. </p>

<p>Mr. Evil Pot Head passes the *****
You: No thanks I'm good.
Mr. Evil Pot Head: Oh ok. (Passes it to the next person)
The End
How does it usually play out with you guys? I mean why is this so complicated? And I'm also surprised you never faced such a situation in HS. I'm from NY so it’s everywhere here, but I just assumed that it was like that everywhere else...</p>

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Citan, you've done humanity and probably yourself a huge favor. I respect you big time.

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<p>I agree that a drug free world would be preferable, but at this point, it will never be like that. I also agree that he is doing himself a favor not doing any drugs or drinking, but I don't think that to not do anything is a benefit to humanity. Nor is trying to stop mature and educated people (as I'm assuming some of us college students are) to do this stuff. </p>

<p>I know the consequences of drinking or drugs. I don't do both all the time but it’s my choice to do so. Why do I do it? It’s fun and leads way to very interesting adventures. Is exercising my right or will to do something against humanity? </p>

<p>nm your right, let’s all quit. And while we are at it lets create a list of the perfect world and how everyone should act like and force others to adhere to our rules...after Iraq of course. I know that may have not made sense but whatever.</p>

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I am not judging anyone personally. I am simply judging the culture that we have been introduced to, and that we are blindly perpetuating.

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<p>Yes, you are judging people personally. "Black people are a threat to humanity". Doesn’t saying that attack each black person? The statements you made about people who drink/do drugs go for all of them.
And while we are judging the cultures we are brought into, how about religion? Government? Governments play the biggest roles in drug trafficking. It has gone on so long that to eliminate all the drugs would ruin certain Middle East countries' economies because the US and EU countries (perhaps not necessarily their governments but their people too) have created this situation.</p>

<p>As far as I’m concerned, alcohol/drugs are only as bad as candy. Candy is also bad for your health, but its tasted so good. </p>

<p>Needless to say, I’m high.</p>

62

<p>The truth does hurt? **** you, pretentious *****. Why do poor black people go to jail for drug convictions? This is the example you gave. It's not because college kids buy them, it's because those people SELL THEM. What a deflection of responsibility. Your leftist tripe is not the "truth" or anywhere close to it. We have a responsibility to not buy alcohol, coffee, or any of that? I have a responsibility to my own self-interest and nothing else. Certainly not your self-immolating goals.</p>

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<p>Well said.</p>

<p>.</p>

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<p>"Fallacy of two wrongs make a right. Buying drugs cannot be ethically justified by the fact that other purchases have their negative associations as well. And in the case of drugs, unlike clothes and certain foods, they are far from being necessities; we could easily give them up and be fine -- in fact, we would be better off. And yet we still do not."</p>

<p>I dissagree, clothing from wall-mart (as well as deisgner clothing) is not a necessity. Clothing that does not expolit the third world work force can be had at a higher price by manufactures who practace full disclousre. Because it's convient and cheap most people wave considering the ethical delema.</p>

<p>BTW, just for future reference. Fallacies are errors of reasoning. For example, if I were to think to myself, "eating candy is bad; taking drugs is bad; drugs are as bad as candy" it would be a fallacious arguemnt. Statements, per se, can not be fallacious. Statments can only be true or false.
The statment, "If you don't want to take advantage of third world countrys, then you shouldn't shop at wall mart", can only be true or false. Not valid or invalid.</p>

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<p>"The truth does hurt? **** you, pretentious *****. Why do poor black people go to jail for drug convictions? This is the example you gave. It's not because college kids buy them, it's because those people SELL THEM. What a deflection of responsibility. Your leftist tripe is not the "truth" or anywhere close to it. We have a responsibility to not buy alcohol, coffee, or any of that? I have a responsibility to my own self-interest and nothing else. Certainly not your self-immolating goals."</p>

<p>Thats not true at all.
In a modern society people have interests that extend beyond there own self-interest. Paying taxes is one of many good examples.</p>

<p>And it's also not true that poor black people are the ones who sell drugs. It's the cartels, organized middle eastern drug runners, and mafias around the world who use americas poor (regardless of color) to sell their product.</p>

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In a modern society people have interests that extend beyond there own self-interest. Paying taxes is one of many good examples

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<p>I agree but taxes is not a good example. No one pays taxes simply because it will benefit society. They have to pay taxes, its the law. There are people who donate though. </p>

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It's the cartels, organized middle eastern drug runners, and mafias around the world who use americas poor (regardless of color) to sell their product

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<p>True, but you make it seem as if American's are the only victim here. They aren't.</p>

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<p>Drinkin Smokin straight West Coast'n! Ughhhhhh!! HAHHAH</p>

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<p>Actually, that "2 wrongs don't make a right" is indeed a fallacy. Janel position was that buying drugs is bad. Neverborn's counter argument was that buying from Walmart is bad too, but since it's ok to buy from Walmart, it must be ok to buy drugs. Neverborn used another "wrong" to justify his position against Janel, so it is a fallacy - he made an error in his reasoning.</p>

<p>I don't know the correct term for this fallacy since I am not a liberal arts major. But anyhow, there is an inexhaustible list of fallacies.</p>

69

<p>"No one pays taxes simply because it will benefit society."</p>

<p>Sure, but neverborn said he had obligations only to himself and nonone else. which isn't true. If that were the case he'd never pay taxes. OR get a job.</p>

<p>"True, but you make it seem as if American's are the only victim here. They aren't."</p>

<p>In terms of poor blacks in jail it is a distinctly american phenominon. We are the only racially diverse country that has such as disproportional amount of people in jail.</p>

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<p>"Actually, that "2 wrongs don't make a right" is indeed a fallacy. Janel position was that buying drugs is bad. Neverborn's counter argument was that buying from Walmart is bad too, but since it's ok to buy from Walmart, it must be ok to buy drugs. Neverborn used another "wrong" to justify his position against Janel, so it is a fallacy - he made an error in his reasoning."</p>

<p>It is a real fallacy but it was not applicable in that situation.
Neverborn never made an argument. He never said it was O.K., in fact he said just the opposite. What he said was, if you take position that third world exploitation is bad, not shopping at wall-mart would be consistent in upholding that position.</p>

<p>It's just like the statement, "The grass is green." It can't be vaild (or invalid because it commits a logical fallacy), it can only be true or false.</p>

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<p>Paying taxes is in my self interest. Someone is holding a gun to my head every year saying give me your money or go to jail. </p>

<p>Getting a job is in my self interest. I wish to be productive and have a roof over my head, eat, etc. </p>

<p>I do not have an OBLIGATION to anyone else, I am being FORCED to pay taxes.</p>

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<p>Well I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope if you ever become wealthy your perceptions will change.</p>

<p>Perhaps this is why I don't gripe when I pay my taxes, because I believe it's my obligation to serve my coutrymen.</p>

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<p>And the same thing with a job, I want a job I would be willing to do for free.</p>

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<p>Matt: Thanks for clarifying that I was not committing that fallacy. You are correct in my approach.</p>

<p>I want a job to be as productive as I can, to make as much money as I can, and to make me as happy as I can. Not solely for the money, as some jobs would make me miserable even though they make a lot of money.</p>

<p>Paying taxes is doing nothing but going to a lot of things I don't support (and very little that I do.)</p>

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<p>Well I believe in psychological egoism and enlightened self-interest which are the basic principles of the invisible hand. I dont pay taxes but if I did I wouldnt want to because like neverborn said, the money goes to things I dont support. If they did, of course I wouldnt mind paying them as the money would come back to me somehow. </p>

<p>Matt30: You are a great person and maybe the world needs more people like you. In an ideal world we would all want to work at a job that we love, but unfortunately the need, or often want, for money is just too much. </p>

<p>On a unrelated note: <a href="http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1ldyn/id2.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1ldyn/id2.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

76

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False analogy.

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<p>Oh jeez, no. NOT a false analogy. A question. Get off the defensive, janel.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that, generally speaking, fallacies can only be committed when conclusions are drawn from that sort of reasoning. If someone states "well, you are an idiot," he is not committing the ad hominem attack. Now if he states "well, you are an idiot, therefore everything you say is false," then he is committing the ad hominem attack.</p>

78

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Paying taxes is doing nothing but going to a lot of things I don't support (and very little that I do.)

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<p>This one always confuses me about libertarians. Would they prefer that taxation be elective based on areas? Like, each person checks off where their taxes go? It seems to me that taxation is one of those situations where one cannot really help but lose a little.</p>

<p>But since the majority of the spending, one hopes, is in things like infrastructure, then you're still mostly benefitting on the margin. Well...probably.</p>

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<p>The straight edge thinking still doesn't make sense to me. </p>

<p>For example, the same drug company that made the vicodin that you take after getting your teeth pulled made the vicodin that your crazy Aunt Betty ignores her life on.</p>

<p>The same dopamines that are released from cocaine use are released when you're on a roller coaster.</p>

<p>And if we really want to get down to it, one can alter perception merely by delving into some trance and hypnotic states. What's the difference?</p>

<p>This is not me attacking the position, so I don't want anyone (janel or otherwise) to get all uppity. This is me trying to fill in the gaps.</p>

80

<p>Right -- because when a person wishes to engage in civil debate on a certain issue, it automatically follows that they are a bitter soul on the defensive rampage.</p>

<p>Wait wait! Here's my favorite part! :)</p>

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The truth does hurt? **** you, pretentious *****.

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