Absolute disgrace

College Confidential Community
41

<p>1337noh4k4,</p>

<p>Funny how you assume things you don't know. I'm not Japanese. I'm Jewish American. </p>

<p>
[quote]
YOu cover up Japanese atrocities by stating that CHINESE KILLED MORE OF THEIR PEOPLE. YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. DON'T YOU GET IT, they WERE KILLING THEMSELVES, not BEING KILLED BY FOREIGNERS.

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</p>

<p>I never said that I'm covering up. I made the point that the Chinese killed more of their own people (if this is a numbers game) and yet it's not brought up in textbooks. I was showing that Western texts tend to ignore most of the atrocities in East Asia because of the "backyard" issue. That's all. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Look at history books throughout the US. I've looked at my old world history book and they never said ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT THE JAPANESE DID TO THE PEOPLE.

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</p>

<p>Not mentioning it is not necessarily agreeing with it, is it? Does the text outright say, "The Japanese did good in Asia?" No? Then shush.</p>

<p>
[quote]
seriously, you sound just like the japanese government. Trying to cover up the actions against Asian countries. You would not believe how much Korean people hate your people. The only reason why we have any association with you guys are because of money

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I didn't know that the Koreans hate Jews. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Why am I furious? Your people basically destroyed by mom's side of the family including my grandafather. My grandma had to basically ran away to America. Wow, isn't this something. Go defend that. Wait, YOU WON'T UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOUR PEOPLE WERE NEVER INVADED (Well Mongols were close but dam wind got in their way) nor were they every occupied by a ultra-nationalistic society who thought they were the best.

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<p>They were never occupied by the US? Huh.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Oh don't you deny that sir, you know what I am talking about. If you don't think that believing your culture and country is the best, that my friend is printed in chapters in history books that deal with nationalism.

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</p>

<p>Yeah, I tend to think that Jews are the best. But that's 'cause God says so. :-/</p>

<p>Man, are you a special case.</p>

42

<p>I mean, with stuff like what 1337noh is saying, is it any wonder that I tend to find most of these arguments baseless?</p>

<p>Seriously, 1337noh, do you think your family is the only one to have ever suffered? My family was killed in the Holocaust. Do I hate Germans? NO. I hate human cruelty and human inaction against cruelty.</p>

<p>More hate isn't what the world needs, and you just go to prove that.</p>

43

<p>"Seriously, 1337noh, do you think your family is the only one to have ever suffered? My family was killed in the Holocaust. Do I hate Germans? NO. I hate human cruelty and human inaction against cruelty."</p>

<p>whoa whoa whoa. your family got killed in the holocaust? really and seems like in your profile it says," Location: Hizen-cho, Japan". So how did your family get affected by the Holocaust? I am assuming you are of Japanese origin</p>

44

<p>Did you read my whole profile, or did you just ASSume crap?</p>

<p>Honestly, did you even think before you started on your rant?</p>

45

<p>"Quote:
it seems to make the statements in the least publicizing way, and in the most subtle ways. </p>

<p>First off, the apologies were BIG news here. Trust me, I lived here during the last one. It was a big news deal, and in all the major outlets (NHK, Asahi).</p>

<p>As far as subtle goes... that's just the way these people are. They don't like strong statements either way. Plus, the last time they made a very strong apology, Beijing shot it down as another "Japanese lie."</p>

<p>To be fair to these people, imagine if you wronged a friend. You apologized, and he said, "Not good enough, do it again." So you apologize again. Only this time, he says, "You've never apologized before, so why start now? Oh, and not good enough." Repeat ad nauseam, and you get to see how the Japanese feel when it comes to China."</p>

<p>I think that is thee quote that make 1337noh4k4 believe you were japanese.</p>

<p>1337noh4k4,
chill out and have a beer. You make good points, but kinda... you know... I think you know what i mean.</p>

<p>UCLAri,
good points, but can't you guys just get along. How about just ending your arguments. UCLAri, I think 1337noh4k4 just got ****ed because of your arguments and believed that you were trying to cover up Japanese atrocities by saying Chinese people killed more of their peopel than the Japanese people did. But UCLAri, even thought I started this thread and am Korean, I have to agree on some points you make. </p>

<p>I think we should just all acknowledge this event and hope it never happens again and try to look forward, not backwards</p>

46

<p>
[quote]
I think that is thee quote that make 1337noh4k4 believe you were japanese.

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<p>ASSumption makes an ass out of u and some guy called "mption." Bad news. </p>

<p>
[quote]
good points, but can't you guys just get along. How about just ending your arguments. UCLAri, I think 1337noh4k4 just got ****ed because of your arguments and believed that you were trying to cover up Japanese atrocities by saying Chinese people killed more of their peopel than the Japanese people did.

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<p>I get along fine with people who base their arguments on facts and logic, not emotion and fallacies. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I think we should just all acknowledge this event and hope it never happens again and try to look forward, not backwards

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</p>

<p>Too bad most people on both sides aren't as magnanimous as you.</p>

47

<p>This is a problem we all have to work out, as one.</p>

<p>UCLAri, you would understand, wouldn't you?
If your grandparents were affected by the Holocaust, and the government told you TODAY (close in time frame of the occupation of Korea), after 50 years of denial, would your anger be eased oh-so-easily? Could you simply accept the apology and say it's all right?</p>

<p>In my humble opinion, I believe the magnitude of sorrow and anger felt by the Chinese and Korean population is far more greater than the Jews. The Jews have been offered apologies since the Geneva Conference. Hell, the VATICAN offered you apologies. (I am not trying to defend the Holocaust--it was indeed as cruel as humanity can get)</p>

<p>What do we get? We're sorry, what we did was wrong. When? After fifty years. </p>

<p>Afterall, though, I think this is an issue only time can resolve--as generations pass, the magnitude of atrocities still felt by the population will gradually fade away.</p>

48

<p>Actually, the Japanese made apologies as early as 1985, less than 40 years after the war. The Germans didn't really start making strong overtures until around the same time.</p>

<p>Look, apologies ARE just a bunch of hot air, I agree. But the other Asian nations, as far as I'm concerned, are wrong for not giving the Japanese credit where credit's due. You push the Japanese enough into thinking that nothing will atone for their sins, and they'll start thinking that it's just not worth it. </p>

<p>Honestly, how much do the Japanese need to self-flagellate until they're okay again? 50 years? 100 years? Until the end of time? </p>

<p>The Japanese have also offered reparations, but China turned them down. What should have happened, the Japanese keep offering them every year? Honestly, that's not how politics works.</p>

49

<p>I've just scanned this thread real quickly so sorry in advance if I repeat anything that has already been said, but... </p>

<p>First of all, I'd highly suggest that anybody interested in the study of history in the past read "The Problem from Hell" By Samatha Powers. My holocaust class teacher recommended it and it's a fascinating book. Explains the problem with US Foreign policy regarding genocide.</p>

<p>Also, since this thread is kinda about genocide I thought I'd offer my opinion. I think that the problem with the US foreign policy is that we look for a bunch of quick fixes instead of a long-term solution. After the Holocaust, we built holocaust museums to remind us of the tragedy. We also vowed to "never again" let a tragedy of this type and size take place in another town at another time. However, we have failed at stopping genocides because the US kind of waits until after it's over to agree on how horrible an event it was. Really, the only motivations for stopping genocide are morals. We believe it is morally wrong and must stop it. However, there are many excuses that other countries make to avoid stepping in and stopping genocide. They cite political reasons, economic reasons, etc.</p>

<p>I don't know, it's like 5 in the morning here so I'm kinda rambling...</p>

50

<p>zpmqxonw (that's a handfull...man),</p>

<p>There is also the problem of mobilization and lack of intelligence. In the case of Rwanda, for example, by the time we were able to figure out the magnitude of what was going on, most of the killing had already taken place. Despite the fact that we live in a fully electronic, instant information age, delays in intelligence can lead to situation where otherwise willing regimes are left without a clear reason to intervene.</p>

51

<p>What about the coverup attempt by distorting history textbooks?</p>

<p>I haven't read all of your posts but you, UCLAri, seem to be drinking too much of the Japanese Kool-Aid, or whatever the hell they have there.....err.. Sake?</p>

<p>Why do the Japanese still worship the war criminals as heroes?
And by apologized, didn't they say something like "we deeply regret..."
Hey guess what, nobody ****ing cares if you regret it, come out and fully apologize like men. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me, from what I've been hearing so far, that the Japanese still kind of glorify those days.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Not mentioning it is not necessarily agreeing with it, is it? Does the text outright say, "The Japanese did good in Asia?" No? Then shush.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So..... not mentioning a major massacre.......
Obviously, they are trying to hide something. Obviously they are not going to say the Japanese did more good in Asia than bad. However, why omit such an event?</p>

<p>Why don't they omit the nuclear bombs too?
Actually, I think the nukes wcan kind of be justified. Was the Massacre in China ever justified? Nope. There is a reason why they omit it from the textbook and soft-word other atrocities that they had committed in Asia.</p>

52

<p>UCLAri,</p>

<p>You are kidding yourself if you think you know much. </p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-war_Germany_vs_post-war_Japan%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-war_Germany_vs_post-war_Japan&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Japanese officials have offered official and personal apologies or "regret" for the aggressive and bloody war it unleashed in Asia and the Pacific. Unlike Germany or Italy, where there is overwhelming national consensus, Japan has not come to a single conclusion actions of its military during and leading up to the war. Instead, the debate still brews, often among members of its ruling Liberal Democratic Party. Conservative, pro-nationalist members have thus far prevailed in this debate and control textbooks though they are denounced by a vocal minority of more liberal thinkers, intellectuals and teachers. In recent years, Prime Minister Koizumi has re-ignited the domestic and international controversy by paid homage to Yasukuni Shrine.

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</p>

<p>Asians aren't fundamentally very different from Jews or other Europeans. Other Asians wouldn't make a fuss if Japan behaves like Germany. Don't try to act like you are some scholar on this subject when you only have very superficial knowledge about it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I also think it's funny that everyone says they don't teach about it when they do. In order to pass the high school and college entrance exams, you have to know about the atrocities. The revisionist textbooks are not used. They're printed, but I think only .1% of schools actually have bought them.

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</p>

<p>Perhaps you can enlighten us by translating to us words for words here what the major textbooks that most schools use say. As far as I know from what I read (based on fallacies according to you; I guess you are suggesting Iris Chang is a liar also?), they are all "revisionist" to some degree. Some are just more extreme than others.</p>

53

<p>Sam Lee and jrcho88,</p>

<p>Since you've only offered ad hominems and logical fallacies, I'll take a pass. I know where this conversation is going already.</p>

<p>Cheers.</p>

54

<p>GG</p>

<p>I guess if you just want to avoid debate, I guess you're surrendering, kind of like what your beloved Japan did after they got screwed with 2 nukes.</p>

<p>Anybody with logic will say that omitting an atrocity from a history textbook is an attempt at hiding it. Yet, they overplay them getting nuked. Care to explain that? Oh wait, no you can just conveniently excuse yourself because all of the people's statements who don't agree with you are ad hominems and logical fallacies.</p>

<p>Care to explain how exactly people's points are logical fallacies? Oh, I guess not, because you already "know where this is going". </p>

<p>Cheers,</p>

55

<p>I am from Nanjing and you would not believe the animosity we have for this incident. I remember visiting the war museums in kindergarten and looking at those black and white pictures hanging on the walls; listening to my grandfather's story of friend being steamed alive. Then I moved to Singapore, walking the beaches of Sentosa - an offcoast island that is now an amusement park but was called Execution Island as the Japs lined people up on the beaches and machine gunned them because the Chinese people won't surrender. I too am disgusted by the Japanese government today, especially with the whole shrine thing and recent efforts to further revise the textbooks. I'd like to see the world reaction if the German Chancellor started visiting Hitler's tomb (if he even has one). If you go onto amazon.com for that book, you'll see a few adamant Japanese reviewers who even proposed that the Kuomindang were the ones who looted and burned the city and blamed the Japanese for it!</p>

<p>However, that is not to say I hate the Japanese people (unless they did deny it to my face and refused to hear reason, like many of the older generations will do I'm sure). I do agree that China has a bit of fault too - Mao and his isolationism did cancel the Japanese reparations - and for not doing enough to stand up for righteous justice and letting them walk all over us. However I've learned to separate the sin and sinners. When I was in my boycott phase a few years ago and saw a "sumi-e" brushpainting kit, I got really mad and was thinking "dude that is SOOO our art!!" but my father told me that the rice paper, the bamboo brushes, the ink with the kanji on them - they are identical to Chinese brushpainting. Ironically, while Vietnam and Korea has rejected using Chinese characters, Japan is still using them despite all the unpleasantness of the past century - I guess ultra-nationalism isn't strong enough to make them go all Kana, huh. There are a few things I really admire about the Japanese people, such the unity, reverence and sacrifice for the country - ones that disappeared from China along with religion and Confucianism and ethics since the Cultural Revolution. Nowadays few Chinese people know their history: when Mulan came out, wearing traditional Chinese robes from the Tang dynasty, there were outcries that it looked like a kimono. Hello?! The Manchu dress of Cheong-sam has become so embedded in Chinese and Western minds alike that we've literally forgotten our own history.</p>

<p>I see I have rambled off topic. I plan to become a missionary for peace in East Asia. Nothing can come from angry Nationalists from either side yelling and blaming each other. As Christ said, love is the most powerful and permanent force that can create change. I pray that things will be back to where they were, ages ago, where we were like brothers sharing a similar culture, such as the times described in a poem by a great Tang dynasty poet Wang Wei, a goodbye ode to his Japanese friend who came during one of those cultural exchange trips and lived here for 40 years.</p>

<p>送祕書晁監還日本國
　　 王維
積水不可極，
安知滄海東。
九州何處遠，
萬里若乘空。
向國惟看日，
歸帆但信風。
鰲身映天黑，
魚眼射波紅。
鄕樹扶桑外，
主人孤島中。
別離方異域，
音信若爲通。</p>

<p>ps) irony, the first site that popped up on google for this poem was a Japanese site, lol.</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
Hell, the Chinese killed more of their own than the Japanese could've hoped to kill, and VERY FEW Americans know about that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I just read UCLAri's posts carefully and I just realize this guy DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING. </p>

<p>UCLAri, first of all, many people did die during Great Leap Forward but they died from famine as a result of failed economic policy, NOT from having their heads chopped off or being attacked by biological/chemcial weapons! The Cultural Revolution derived from a vision to get China out of poverty as a result of the Great Leap Forward. During the Cultural Revolution, many people were tortured by the Red Guards, the overzealous youngsters who were blindly lea by Mao and believed themselves as revolutionists that could turn China around and speed up the pace of industrialization and argricultural production. Because they believed themselves in bringing a brighter future for China, they did anything they could for that cause which unfortunately included torturing those who they thought as antirevolutionists. Putting this together with atrocities done by Japanese military is ridiculous and shows that you probably had never even read a paragraph about it. I suggest you do some research before embarassing yourself here.</p>

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<p>To anybody that claims the Japs are regretful of their wartime atrocities, read this:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/international/asia/19comics.html?ex=1133154000&en=0e44cf5bd5c208f2&ei=5070&emc=eta1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/international/asia/19comics.html?ex=1133154000&amp;en=0e44cf5bd5c208f2&amp;ei=5070&amp;emc=eta1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The article says that the author claims "Japan built the South Korea of today".</p>

<p>Umm... idiot, China and Korea built the Japan of today. They have no inventions of their own. All they do is copy others and slightly adapt it to make it their own.</p>

<p>Thankfully, the Japanese proved my points for me. If you read the article, it will be blatantly obvious.</p>

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<p>i've already talked on AIM with this guy and i'm korean. he understands the political stuffs but i think really doesn't understand the significance of the historical context here. ALthough UCLAri says Japan made formal apologies i still don't know when at least to korea. He however, did admit that Koizumi visiting and bowing down to war criminals was wrong and the Dokdo(island) incident was wrong. Anyways he's kind of moderate i guess but I still believe in a strong Japanese right-ultra-nationalist influence in Japanese government and thus i question many things the japanese government does naturally.</p>

59

<p>Sam Lee and jrcho,</p>

<p>I'll say a few last words before I hit unsubscribe.</p>

<p>First off, I never apologized for what the Japanese did. I think it ranks up there with the German atrocities, the atrocities in Somalia, and the Armenian genocide.</p>

<p>However, I think that you're both very narrow in your worldviews. I sense a sort of apologetic tone for the Chinese atrocities against Chinese. I find that despicable. Killing is killing, and I don't differentiate between civil war and war from outside. Mao, as far as I'm concerned, was as cruel and evil a man as Tojo or Hitler.</p>

<p>But, when you offer me nothing but ad hominems, personal attacks (jrcho in particular) and fallacious reasoning, why should I side with you? You get far more flies with honey than vinegar. I started by trying to show that the hyperbole expressed at the beginning of the thread was wrong, and that at least the Japanese had extended some sort of laurels (if only a small one.) What was I greeted with? Personal attacks, racism, and attacks on me as a Japanese (even though I'm not Japanese.)</p>

<p>Yeah, that's how to make me want to side with you, by attacking me.</p>

<p>Let me list just a few of the wonderful things said directly to me so far:</p>

<p>
[quote]
You would not believe how much Korean people hate your people. The only reason why we have any association with you guys are because of money.

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</p>

<p>I’m not even Japanese and he’s already throwing hate at me. Lovely.</p>

<p>
[quote]

I haven't read all of your posts but you, UCLAri, seem to be drinking too much of the Japanese Kool-Aid, or whatever the hell they have there.....err.. Sake?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, real mature. </p>

<p>
[quote]
You are kidding yourself if you think you know much.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nevermind the fact that I’m going to be getting my MA in the topic, and I happen to speak both Japanese and Mandarin, and have probably read more texts on the topic than you guys have, and I teach in Japan, and I did an internship for the U.S. gov that was based on Japanese affairs…Nah, I know nothing. The first thing someone who doesn’t know about a topic does is resort to ad hominem.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I guess if you just want to avoid debate, I guess you're surrendering, kind of like what your beloved Japan did after they got screwed with 2 nukes.

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</p>

<p>“Beloved Japan?” You gotta be kidding me. I probably could list more things about Japan that I hate than you can (other than your golden calf of WWII). Where to start? They’re generally ignorant, closed-minded about the outside world, there is a deep racist vein in the society, I’m sick of the food, I can’t stand their drivers, their chauvinism makes me sick, I think they’ve ruined their environment, I hate their TV, everything is too small here, I hate my job. Oh yeah, I love Japan through and through. :-/</p>

<p>
[quote]
I just read UCLAri's posts carefully and I just realize this guy DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING.

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</p>

<p>Caps AND ad hominem are usually a bad combo. Care to counter my arguments with facts and not just fallacies?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Umm... idiot, China and Korea built the Japan of today. They have no inventions of their own. All they do is copy others and slightly adapt it to make it their own.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now that’s just plain bigoted. </p>

<p>Then again, someone who would say
[quote]
To anybody that claims the Japs are regretful of their wartime atrocities, read this:

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Clearly doesn’t care much about not being a bigot. So, am I just a Jap-loving kike? Lame.</p>

<p>Now, look, imiracle is a good guy and I’ll gladly talk to him. Purrli seems interested in discourse and discussion. But you two? Bugger off, ‘cause you’re bollocks.</p>

60

<p>Let me summarise my points:</p>

<p>I think that if a discussion came up about German neo-Nazism, Sam Lee and jrcho would ignore it, or they would dismiss it. </p>

<p>I see these sorts of atrocities as INTERNATIONAL crimes. Not crimes against Chinese, not crimes against Koreans, not crimes against anyone but humanity.</p>

<p>But I also see the perpetuation of hate that is so markedly noticeable in jrcho's posts as crimes as well. You think hate is what will make the Japanese look inward? You're kidding yourself. What will fix these problems are reasoning, knowing when good has been made, and a willingness to concede to the notion of humanity.</p>

<p>Nationalism sucks.</p>