Given that a student loves everything about a school:
Small LAC
Good location
Small classes, discussion based, available and interesting professors
Has the desired major and a relatively uncommon minor of interest
Offers other programs student finds desirable
Acceptance rate over 50%
Affordable
How much should said student take into consideration that his GPA and SAT are a good bit above the reported average for admitted students?
I realize these being averages there will be outliers and some will have even higher stats than student but some will also then have lower.
How important are those incoming GPA and SAT statistics in the larger scheme of things given all else seems a good fit? Or do they have nothing to do with the potential rigor or quality of the education offered at a particular college?
That sounds like a wonderful safety. We just visited a college like that this weekend and I am so happy to have it on the list. DS19 filled out an application on the spot.
When your kid is making the final decision it is not bad to have an option where he knows he/she will be the big fish in a small pond. It’s often a good confidence building experience.
But some kids need competition to do their best. You know your kid better than we do. Do they do well when they’re not being challenged or do they get lazy?
I don’t see anything wrong with having GPA and SAT that are higher than the average for incoming students. Particularly for public schools or for relatively affordable schools, there will be some very strong students pretty much anywhere. Also, faculty positions are hard to come by for strong PhD recipients, which implies that many universities will have many professors who really know their stuff and would be very happy to work with their stronger students.
Also, many LACs and small schools will regularly send their strongest students off to graduate schools at some very famous highly ranked universities. When I was in grad school at a highly ranked top university there were students there who had done their undergrad at a very wide range of schools.
Your list looks a lot like the school where my youngest is currently attending. She is doing very well (as a first year student) and loves it. I think that it is a great choice.
I think that this school might be a great safety, but it sounds like more than a safety – it might be the best fit for your child even if they get in everywhere they apply. We don’t all have to attend reach schools for undergrad.
I am recommending to both my children to go to schools where they are in the top percent 30-25% of enrolled students. My reasoning is two-fold; first being in the upper percentages of the school’s range means a better chance for merit and two, both of my children want to pursue degrees beyond thier undergrad (Law & Medicine). So being in the top of admitted students means that they will likely be in the top of the class when it comes time to apply for grad schools. Most schools will have programs for thier top students to keep them competitive and motivated.
It’s hard to say without knowing the particulars. I’m thinking of two schools that’s I wont name but school 1 has an acceptance rate of 47 percent with 3.4 gpa/1100 sat average and school 2 has a 57 percent acceptance but with an average SAT 1320/gpa 3.6 average. I would argue that school 2, whose stats are modest compared to elite schools, would still get a reasonable population of brilliant kids whose record was marred by having a single bad year or who weren’t the best game players or just didn’t catch their stride in time to be really stellar applicants. I would say school 2 could be a good choice (especially with excellent merit) for a stronger applicant who finds particulars about the school attractive. While I’m sure school 1 has excellent students and opportunities as well, I would personally be hesitant to send a kid whose stats are way over average. Of course, that’s just me and I’m by no means an expert.
For our #2, GPA and class rank meant nothing much. She wanted a school with an outstanding reputation, great teachers, talented ARTISTS (and aspiring ones). She had good numbers but more importantly she had artistic talent. Because of the location and curriculum of the college, she also discovered some things in her NON-art classes that helped her to refine her career interests.
Our #1 sought a college “where it’s safe to be a thinker.” His numbers were important factors in his admission, but his own selection criteria had to do with the learning atmosphere in the classroom and the attitudes of the students, plus the location of the college. This was and is a university that is highly ranked, but it was important to him to have a lot of students and faculty who were reflective, interesting – and not grade grubbers or social/career climbers.
In sum: for both kids the college’s learning culture was the most critical consideration, not the average GPA or SAT profile. Nearly as important was the college’s location.
My son got into three “safeties” with some merit money. It was difficult to gauge whether or not he would get merit (or if they were safeties) because he was applying to engineering and stats are usually higher there than for the schools as a whole. The one that has the lowest overall stats (3.4 gpa, 1100 sat) is probably off the list. The other two are more in the 3.6/1320 range and one of those is still on the table due to fit. He has not gotten all his admission results yet, but I am so glad we opted to apply to schools that had a great environment, and that he had a solid chance of getting into EA. Even if he gets into one of his reaches, the merit is very tempting. We have a couple of events coming up with schools he has already been admitted to so he can get a better sense of fit.
So, yes, if your child likes a school, keep it on the list and you might be surprised by a merit offer.
I get the big fish in small pond idea but it’s not for everyone. I would have your child sit in on classes to see how they “fit”. Our S19 has sat in on classes during our visits and they varied widely in level of participation, enthusiasm, and intellectual rigor. He felt much more comfortable at schools where the kids were highly engaged in the classes and excited about the material. All of the schools we’ve visited are LACs. When considering such small schools, we are finding that fit is super important. They all check the boxes for small classes, opportunities for research, lots of options for EC involvement on campus, and plenty of guidance from professors. It’s also important, though, for the prospective student to decide if they want to be a leader in their classes or be surrounded by kids more his peers.
You are describing a school very similar to what my DS chose. He was in the top 25% of admitted students, loved the vibe, location, size, “creed”, etc of the school. He is thriving there. He has shared that knowing he is in the top 25% motivates him to keep his college grades there—even though engineering is rigorous everywhere and he could hide behind that. Also, the merit is great!! Don’t discount a school for one criteria if all the others are what your student is looking for.
There are people who have close friends of wildly varying intelligence and academic intensity. But other people tend to make close friends only with people who are their equals in intelligence and academic intensity. Moreover, some people are quite content to have a few close friends, while others prefer to socialize in larger groups.
IMO people who BOTH make friends with others of roughly the same intelligence AND prefer socializing in large groups tend to be unhappy when they are thrust into a situation in which they are signficantly more intelligent than almost all the other students. I do think that at a large U sheer numbers often enable them to find a group they feel comfortable with. At a LAC–not so much.
I had a brilliant friend in high school who went to what was then a College that changes lives. She was miserable and unhappy for 4 straight years. Yes, she was the favorite student of every faculty member in her department, but she was incredibly lonely. She ended up having an affair with a married professor. She told me she knew it was wrong, but there were literally no male students at the college interested in the same things she was who were her intellectual equals. Frankly, I don’t think she was deluding herself about that.
From what I’ve seen, males are less likely to dislike being the smartest person in the room than females are. However, that’s just in general. There are also men who prefer the company of people who are their intellectual equals.
Social life is an important component of college life–especially at a LAC. So, before deciding, I’d take a look at your kid’s friend group. Is he close friends with all of his teammates from a sport and do those teammates exhibit a big range of intelligence and “academic-ness?” Or are all his friends clustered at the top of the class? Is he going to be happy if he has 1-3 close friends and doesn’t socialize much with anyone else?
Of course, if your kid is at the 75th percentile for gpa/SAT and the school is quite large, there may well be plenty of people to befriend. But if (s)he’s in the top 5%, there may not be.
You aren’t going to find too many slackers in linguistics, Classics, physics. These courses typically attract kids who are serious learners- independent of their scores.
Agree that sitting in some classes would be a good investment of time and energy.
For my son it has nothing to do with the quality of his education. He was well above the average student at his college. He is in the Honors college and with mainly pre-med and pre-vet students. He feels challenged, the professors get to know him, and he loves it (except physics).
That said, it depends on the student, the school and the degree.
@jonri “From what I’ve seen, males are less likely to dislike being the smartest person in the room than females are. However, that’s just in general. There are also men who prefer the company of people who are their intellectual equals.”
My kids must be the exception to that because DS says he’s fine not being the smartest - he likes to be challenged by others - he will be in the top 10-15% of the amitted profile at his University, but is going to participate in one of their honors or LLC programs. This is not a LAC so there are a number of students within his intellectual range.
DD is tired of feeling one down at our highly competitive school. She will have 11 college level classes by graduation but 1/2 are DC so she is not considered a top student. A top student at our school will have 30 or greater ACT and take over 10 AP’s - our val will take 15-16 AP’s and have straight A’s. She does not want to go to a college like our HS. She wants a collaborative environment and she will more likely find that at a school that has lower stats. She says it would be nice to feel like the smartest person in the room.
What is the upper range of scores and GPAs? If the school has a published common data set, you can see the range of upper SAT scores and GPAs to be sure there is some overlap.
It really depends on the kid and on the school. Some kids that are very bright may not be all that interested in “deep” discussions and are content to be the top student and just hang out in their down time. They may not care if they aren’t learning as much as possible and will be happy for easy work. Others may really want to have fellow students that really want to work hard and tackle challenging material and get frustrated if the professor has to reduce the level of the class. That is not to say that lower SAT and GPAs mean that the students are not “deep” or are not capable of higher level discussion. Just that SOME schools with that profile may attract students that are there more to just get through and less to work as hard as they can.
If your student craves discussion-based classes, he should see if there is a way to gauge student interaction in those classes.
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses. He is looking towards a history major with a possibility for grad school (he may want to work in a museum or archive), and loves a good debate/discussion. He says he enjoys “learning for the sake of learning”. at least in subjects that interest him!
I think he enjoys a good challenge ( APUSH and AP Language are his 2 favorite classes this year) but I also know he doesn’t do well under a lot of stress. He needs his sleep and some downtime for sure. Definitely trying to walk a line here between interesting and challenging but not over the top stressful!
I looked up the common data set :
his SAT R is in the top 10%, his SAT M in the top 25% (this is just based on a practice test but I don’t expect it to change too much; taking in March). This particular school is also test optional.
About 75% of kids are in the top 1/2 of their graduating class (close to 50% in the top quarter). He is currently top 20%.
About 60% have an incoming GPA between 3.0 and 4.0. He would be in the top 15% or so here.
I think sitting in on a class or two in his intended field is a good idea. The classes all seem small and discussion based where you have to have done the reading to participate well and the professors notice if you are absent (according the the students we met). I think he could honestly get a lot out of this style of collaborative learning—if the other students are into it as well.
In addition to sitting on a few classes- can he ask someone in the history department (departmental secretary or chair) to set him up for a lunch with a senior who is majoring in history?
Get the “skinny” from someone with similar interests. At some LAC’s, History and the like are where the brainiacs congregate, but at others-- not so much. Find out from the senior how many of his/her friends are writing honors theses, how many have gotten internships at museums, historical societies, auction houses. Find out how many of his/her friends have applied for fellowships, and how much faculty support they’ve gotten for their applications.
He will either walk away from this with a “oh god, not four years of this” or “Wow, I can see myself here” which will answer your question.
My oldest chose the college that fit him like a glove. He went in within the top quartile. It probably didn’t feel any different than being in high school. Personally I think that is a data point that is over emphasized ( where a prospective students falls on the high school gpa) vs where they land after freshman year of college. Some kids thrive trying to get to be the front of the pack and others don’t mind being in the middle of the pack starting a race.
I think it really depends on the kid and on the school. It sounds like the school you have in mind hits a lot of the qualities to look for when looking for a good fit. I have a kid with stats that were the in the 75th or above percentile for most selective schools. On her list were some very selective schools and also some that were less selective, but seemed like good fits in many other areas including student body, programs offered and part of the country.
One thing we did talk about when looking at schools was that her high ACT score is not a measure of her intelligence, but more a measure of her college readiness. If she were in college classes where the average student was still learning the things she has already had access to in her rigorous high school, she might be bored, and when she is bored, she has a tendency to check out. The private high school she goes to now is very selective, and although there are aspects she has disliked about that such as competitiveness and some stress, she has also appreciated having 4 years surrounded by kids who really value intelligence instead of downplaying or being embarrassed by it, and who can all fully engage in the strong curriculum. The students she goes to school with have really helped her rise as a learner - they all bring so much to the table.