<p>I think it’s nice that UA offers the university honors classes and they are limited to 15, but they are just extra classes. They do not satisfy any requirements for your major. They can satisfy a few of the core curriculum requirements. The departmental honors classes can satisfy core curriculum and some of your major requirements. Those classes are not limited to 15. When comparing UA and Auburn for departmental honors classes, UA classes are the same size or bigger. When I compare Honors Calc 1, UA class limit is 56 and Auburn is 27 or 30. Auburn’s regular Calc 1 class is smaller than UA Honors Calc 1. When I compare Honors Bio 1, UA class limit is 120 with lab limit of 36 and Auburn is 72 or 48 with lab limit of 24. When looking at a Honors departmental classes my daughter would be taking, I did not find any where UA would be smaller. The majority of classes taken by a student at either school will not be honors classes. Because of this, I think you need to compare the academic caliber of the whole student population. Looking at the common data set for both schools shows that clearly favors Auburn.
In visiting and researching both schools, there is nothing to make me believe you have more flexibility in tailoring a personalized college experience at UA over Auburn. And as for being with the same students in the same classes for junior and senior years at Auburn, it will be the same at UA as it is at most universities. During junior and senior years students are taking a lot of classes in their major. Neither honor’s college replaces those classes.</p>
<p>Yes, AU does have higher avg. stats in terms of ACT/SAT/GPA. But it also receives far fewer applications, and has a much lower yield rate than UA, meaning that fewer students with lower stats, who are accepted by AU, choose to go there . Plus, UA’s freshman class size is much larger. Thus, UA probably has a greater number, though not percentage, of the more top scoring students. Actually, AU rejects far fewer applicants than UA does, 79 per cent vs. 54 per cent as of this last fall, but has still managed to outpace AU in terms of growth. That speaks to the greater attractiveness of UA to thousands of parents and students. </p>
<p>Also, when I was in UA Honor’s Program, my departmental classes were very small, unlike those at schools like FSU, in which Honors students are mixed in with huge lecture hall classes. </p>
<p>So not sure what your issue is. It is becoming increasingly difficult to get accepted into UA, so I predict you will see that difference in avg. states disappear.</p>
<p>*Because of this, I think you need to compare the academic caliber of the whole student population. Looking at the common data set for both schools shows that clearly favors Auburn.
*</p>
<p>looking at the “academic caliber” of the whole student population is irrelevant. </p>
<p>Who cares if some kids in some easy majors across campus have lower stats? I don’t give a rat’s patootie that some kids in light majors have low scores. How does that affect my kids in Chem E and Math? It doesn’t. Because…those kids aren’t in my kids’ classes. </p>
<p>Bama is going to have a lower data set because Bama is more open to diversity. For Bama to have the same academic set as Auburn, it would mean closing its doors to more URMs and have the lower diversity numbers that Auburn has. Is that a good idea? I don’t think so.</p>
<p>I think it’s nice that UA offers the university honors classes and they are limited to 15, but they are just extra classes. They do not satisfy any requirements for your major. They can satisfy a few of the core curriculum requirements.</p>
<p>this is a bit misleading. They are not “extra classes”. Nearly every UHP class satisfies a core req’t, so they don’t satisfy a “few”. </p>
<p>Very few, if any, honors students have to take an “extra classes” in order to fulfill their honors req’ts. With core classes, honors dept classes, and 300 level honors courses that fulfil the “W” designation, a student can easily take 18 credits of honors designated classes without taking “extra classes”. </p>
<p>My kids will have easily more than fulfilled their honors req’ts without taking any “extra classes.” </p>
<p>Back to post #61…the fact that many of a student’s classes are not in honors is not a justification to look at the academic stats of the school as a whole. Students don’t have everyone in their classes. Do you really think that lowish stats kids are in Cal II, Physics with Cal I, or Differential Equations? Do you think that all students take General Chemistry or Orgo I and II? LOL</p>
<p>If your child took an AP Cal class in high school, were there kids in that class from all academic levels of the high school? I doubt it. Did the fact that there are low stats kids at your child’s high school in any way affect the quality of the AP Cal class? I doubt it. So, is the existence of low stats kids at the high school in any way relevant? No.</p>
<p>I do not think Auburn recruits as heavily as UA and that explains the difference in number of applications. I have a sister in law in a South Carolina high school who works as a college coordinator and when we mentioned my daughter was looking at UA, one of the first things she told us was they were very heavy recruiters. UA does have a greater yield rate.But I also see their freshman return rate has been dropping and as of last report was 83.5%.
I see where UA rejects more applicants. What I do not understand is with them accepting 25% fewer applicants why their incoming class has lower stats than Auburn. I have tried finding on UA site information about percentage of student accepted and rejected based on stats and did not find it. Are their rejections students with low ACT scores and GPA you feel they have a chance to get into UA but would not think so of Auburn. As of the 2009-2010 common data set(the latest one listed on UA site) 45% of incoming freshman had ACT score between 18 - 23 compared to 25.6% for Auburn. For 2010 - 2011 that number is down to 19.7% for Auburn. Auburn only accepted 36% of student with an Act score of 22 or lower, of which 55% attended.
As for student population, Auburn is not trying to grow. They are trying to increase the caliber of students attending. I do not see the difference in avg. stats disappearing anytime soon. UA is still trying to grow( going from 30,000 to 35,000) and the most recent change in avg. Act went from 24.9 to 25.1 for UA compared with 26.1 to 26.9 for Auburn.</p>
<p>I don’t have time at this moment, to answer every thing you posted, but you need to know that that 35, 000 goal is for the entire student body, not freshman classes. Dr. Witt has stated that the freshman classes will not be getting any larger, though he does want to grow the Grad school. So UA will try to grow the student body OVER a TEN YEAR PERIOD, to 35, 000 by recruiting more Grad students, not undergrads. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t call the freshman return rate decline significant. </p>
<p>I think I explained the lower stats. The higher yield rate. But to Mom’s point, look at the total number of top scoring students, and you will see higher numbers, though not percentages, at UA. For example, the latest 25% to 75% percentile for UA ACT scores is 22-29 and AU’s is 24-30. Clearly, with over 1,300 more freshman students each year than AU, UA has more top scoring students than AU.</p>
<p>The only areas that UHP classes satisfy are Humanities, Fine Arts and literature core curriculum.
There is nothing to say that low stats kids will not be taking calc, physics or organic chemistry. Those classes are offered at schools where the whole school is low stats. The low stats kids have to be taking something.</p>
<p>Just as UA may have more overall high stats kids. They have way more overall lower stats kids.
In the articles about growth I have read, no where did it state it was limited to graduate students. As for the time line of 2020, their last goal was 28,000 and they reached that years ahead of what was targeted.</p>
<p>I think you are wrong seeing as how my poli science honors class was held around a small conference table and had at most seven students!</p>
<p>“The only areas that UHP classes satisfy are Humanities, Fine Arts and literature core curriculum.”</p>
<p>I assume Humanities would include History (my son’s proposed major)…? (Just curious. Some schools consider History separately under social sciences.)</p>
<p>I think you are wrong seeing as how my poli science honors class was held around a small conference table and had at most seven students!</p>
<p>*What I do not understand is with them accepting 25% fewer applicants why their incoming class has lower stats than Auburn. *</p>
<p>Because Bama is dedicated to diversity. You may not be aware of this, but sadly the average ACT score for AA’s in the US (not just the state) is only an ACT 16. I’m not saying that most/all AA’s that Bama accepts have an ACT of 16, but certainly Bama must be accepting a good number of low stat URMs. </p>
<p>Dr. Witt is also insistant that Bama continue to accept kids (mainly rural kids) who have had poor K-12 instruction. His philosophy is that Bama can take these kids, bring them up to speed, and provide a college education. One strong path out of poverty and dead ends. </p>
<p>*As for student population, Auburn is not trying to grow. They are trying to increase the caliber of students attending. *</p>
<p>Right…and Bama has made a concerted effort not to do this because to do so would shut the door on too many URMs and others who haven’t had strong K-12 education. Bama could follow Auburn’s path…which will result in a largely Wonder Bread white school. Tigers, you can go for it…the Tide prefers a rainbow.</p>
<p>*The only areas that UHP classes satisfy are Humanities, Fine Arts and literature core curriculum. *</p>
<p>And, that’s a good part of the Core Curriculum. Not sure what your concern is. </p>
<p>*There is nothing to say that low stats kids will not be taking calc, physics or organic chemistry. Those classes are offered at schools where the whole school is low stats. The low stats kids have to be taking something. *</p>
<p>??? Not sure what you’re saying here. why would you think that low stats kids “have” to take calc, physics, orgo? I’m sure that you’re aware that colleges offer majors that don’t require those classes and they offer easier courses to fulfill math and science req’ts. I’m not concerned with what goes on at schools where everyone is low stats (don’t even know of such a school), because we are discussing 2 particular schools here. </p>
<p>If you’re suggesting that many/most of the kids in hard sciences, engineering, and Cal/beyond math classes at Bama do not possess good stats, then you are very wrong.</p>
<p>Just as UA may have more overall high stats kids. They have way more overall lower stats kids.</p>
<p>Again, who cares? Not relevant when taking/majoring in challenging majors. Those kids aren’t in those classes. Who cares if some kids in easier majors across the campus have lower stats?</p>
<p>In the articles about growth I have read, no where did it state it was limited to graduate students. As for the time line of 2020, their last goal was 28,000 and they reached that years ahead of what was targeted.</p>
<p>You’re right that many articles do not make it clear that the numbers include the grad school and law school and probably even the med school students on campus. The targeted numbers do include those grad-level students. And, since Dr. Witt intends to expand the med school on campus (UA COM - Tuscaloosa campus), those expansion numbers may include those projected gains as well. </p>
<p>*their last goal was 28,000 *</p>
<p>and, that number also included grad students.</p>
<p>Bama currently has about 24,000 undergrads and 4,800 grad/law students.</p>
<p>did you think that the 28,000 number was all undergrads?</p>
<p>the 35,000 projected number reflects undergrads and grad/law students. Bama saw a large % increase in grad enrollment over the last year or two, so Dr. Witt has goal for that trend to continue.</p>
<p>Atlanta68
I went an looked at the common data set for 2009 - 2010. There is only a difference of around 30 high stats students between UA and Auburn. That is with UA having 5116 freshman and Auburn having 3918. For 2010 - 2011, Auburn percentage of freshman who scored a 30 - 36 on the ACT went from 22.9% to 29.6%. The data for UA for this year has not been posted. Last year it was 18%.</p>
<p>I think you can only satisfy 12 of the 53 core requirements through University honors classes.
My point is that the UHP classes with their 15 student limit are small part of the classes you will take at UA. You will most likely get more credits through Departmental Honors classes and they are going to be bigger than 15, possibly much bigger. When you talk to the Honors College and read the comments by poster on here, they stress those classes and their size and not the departmental honors classes and their size. My daughter will take more departmental honors classes than UHP classes and in that case Auburn honors classes are smaller.
There is not a huge percentage difference between UA and Auburn in regards to white students. UA has 83.5% white students and Auburn has 86%.
If UA wants to accept low stats kids because that are URM or come from rural areas that’s fine. But it keeps being suggested that because UA acceptance rate is lower than Auburn, that UA is better. I would expect with lower acceptance rate that the stats for UA would be better than Auburn and they are not. The question then becomes what students is UA denying?.</p>
<p>Well, I think when the stats come out for this year about how many NMF selected UA when AU has an almost identical scholarship you might stop and think why…</p>
<p>Well, I guess it depends on your major. For my daughter at AU, she wouldn’t be formally accepted into the program until her Jr. year that’s why she’d have less flexibilty in junior/senior years since she’d be taking all departmental courses. Whereas at UA, she can start taking departmental classes next Fall and continue to take additional courses for the next three years. Also at UA she has more opportunities to take a wider range of ones that she finds interesting.</p>
<p>Dadto3
I don’t understand what your point is. I don’t have a horse in this race, but couldn’t we argue stats all day, and truly it would make no difference? Just from reading these boards I know there are some VERY high stats kids looking into UA, I am sure there are also high stats kids considering lots of other places, including AU.</p>
<p>Ultimately with the economy still in the doldrums and people realizing taking out tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars worth of loans to pay for their children’s college is not practical, and frankly not prudent. High stats kids that come from middle class and above homes that will not get any assistance are looking at schools with generous merit dollars. It just so happens that UA does a fabulous job of rewarding, and marketing to those kids. </p>
<p>As long as the high performers are rewarded with great scholarships, a challenging curriculum, and great professors everyone wins right?</p>
<p>*I think you can only satisfy 12 of the 53 core requirements through University honors classes.
*</p>
<p>No…you can satisfy more than that…see below that are underlined.</p>
<p>And…You can satisfy a good number of core with a mix of Honors College and Dept honors courses.</p>
<p>6 semester hours of written composition (FC). </p>
<p>The above can be satisfied with dept English 103 which counts as honors.</p>
<p>6 semester hours in 300- and 400-level courses, preferably in the students major, approved for the writing (W) designation. The (W) designation indicates that one of the conditions for a passing grade is that students write coherent, logical and carefully edited prose in a minimum of two papers, at least one of which will be graded and returned before mid-semester. All (W) designated courses are taught and graded by instructors who have at least the masters degree and preferably are limited to an enrollment of no more than 35 students. The (W) requirement must be satisfied with courses taken on this campus.</p>
<p>Honors College offers courses to fulfill the above.</p>
<p>6 semester hours of one of the following:
6 semester hours in courses that are approved for the computer (C) designation. These courses either substantially integrate the application of appropriate software or require writing computer programs. Students must make extensive use of the computer as a condition for passing the course. Courses approved for the (C) designation assume that students have a working knowledge of the computer. </p>
<p><a href=“the%20above%20can%20be%20satisfied%20with%20those%20in%20CBHP”>B</a>**</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>2 semesters in one foreign language (FL). A grade of C or better must be earned in the first-semester course of the two-semester sequence that fulfills the requirement before the student will be allowed to enroll in the second semester course. Students with two or more high-school units of a foreign language will be assigned to foreign language courses by the foreign language advisors on the basis of placement test scores. Students placed into FR 103, SP 103, or intermediate courses (FR 201, SP 201) will satisfy this requirement in one semester.
Note: These 6 hours are in addition to the requirements for humanities or mathematics.</p>
<p>12 semester hours of courses approved for the humanities and fine arts (HU, L & FA) designations, to include 3 semester hours of courses approved for the fine arts (FA) designation and 3 semester hours of courses approved for the literature (L) designation. </p>
<p>Honors College offers courses to fulfill the above.</p>
<p>Each student must complete a 6-semester-hour sequence in either literature or history.
12 semester hours of courses approved for the history and social and behavioral sciences (HI & SB) designations, to include 3 semester hours of courses approved for the history (HI) designation. Each student must complete a 6-semester-hour sequence in either literature or history. </p>
<p>**An IHP course satisfies a SB req’t. ** </p>
<p>Several UHP courses satisfy the history requirement…such as: Honors Classics and Western Culture or Honors International War Crimes</p>
<p>11 semester hours of courses approved for the natural sciences and mathematics (N & MA) designations, to include 8 semester hours of courses approved for the natural sciences (N) designation and 3 semester hours of courses approved for the mathematics (MA) designation. This mathematics requirement must be satisfied with MATH 110 or higher.</p>
<p>Dept honors courses can satisfy the above</p>
<p>* UA has 83.5% white students and Auburn has 86%.
*</p>
<p>Auburn</p>
<p>1% American Indian/Alaskan Native
2% Asian/Pacific Islander
7% Black/Non-Hispanic
4% Hispanic
84% White/Non-Hispanic
1% Non-Resident Alien</p>
<p>Alabama</p>
<p>1% American Indian/Alaskan Native
1% Asian/Pacific Islander
11% Black/Non-Hispanic
3% Hispanic
83% White/Non-Hispanic
1% Non-Resident Alien</p>
<p>It’s the number of black students that can really affect score range since their test score averages are often well below average since the average ACT score of an AA student in the US is ACT 16.</p>