No, the acceptance threads are a skeleton of what those kids feel is important. It can be misleading. If you have some questions, you can pm me. I’m taking a break from this thread.
@TannerSmith Affirmative Action is a way to assist races that were legally oppressed and brutalized build up some kind of communities. Furthermore, Affirmative Action is no way near an instant admit into any college. The students who get in because of it are normally around every other person who applies and deserve to be there. It isn’t as if colleges go out into the streets to find teenagers that are an URM and say, “You want to come here?”
@lookingforward But typically what these kids feel is important and are on the results thread are the things that kids put on their applications. How can they be misleading?
@gtownhopeful2016 No one said that “colleges go out into the streets to find teenagers that are an URM and say, “You want to come here?”” Stop with the straw man.
No one thinks affirmative action is an instant admit. It is a boost, and one that people that share my beliefs is unjustified. I have issue with what you said about the boosted URMs that get in “deserve to be there” (note I am only talking about those who would not have gotten in if they were not URMs, I am not talking about those who would have gotten in anyway). Do these URMs really deserve to get in over another kid with superior merit just because they were a particular race? Is that fair?
@Suchwowmuchcool It was a purposeful hyperbole…
Anyway, in response to your question I don’t think that it is in anyway shape or form fair. I also don’t think it is fair that legacy applicants get in easier. I really hate the fact that those very good at sports with decent grades and scores can almost walk into any college. I am disgusted by the amount of people who get in from the so-called feeder schools regardless of how prepared they really are. All of these things are unfair, but so is life. Everyone has some advantage over others, and life will favor those who know how to put those advantages to get good use. It is what makes life unfair and since most members are close to coming to college and enter the real world it is a lesson they need to learn.
“Fair” is not in play. After a certain threshold, all students are qualified. It is then up to the adcom to determine acceptance from the ADDITIONAL info that we are not privy to in the CC results threads. We cannot read the subjective portion - essays, letters of rec, additional supplements. SWMC is basing value on quantitative and obvious credentials only. Holistic admissions is looking for the subtle and not-so-obvious, the “special something” to add to campus.
On the topic of unfair advantages…
The kids who are born with silver spoons in their mouths…they are given a leg up on everyone as far as resources. They didn’t earn them. They were born into that 8,000 sq. foot home in the suburbs, the fancy schooling, the fancy tutors(oh yes, they have $200/hour tutors coming out of their a**ses for almost every subject) the expensive music lessons, the uber educated parents, the exclusive clubs etc…and when they make it to elite colleges they want to voice disdain for those who accomplished Herculean feats without the benefit of mommy & daddy’s money?
Let’s face it, there are far more of those kids walking the campuses of elite universities than there are black & Hispanic students. At most schools, they make up far less than %10. Get over it. They aren’t taking your spots! Stop looking for someone to blame!!! Stop bitchin & moanin. So ironic how they never ■■■■■ and moan about the life long indulgences bestowed upon the privileged majority. How can they?
Someone else will probably know the exact percentages of URMs at HYPS etc.
@Suchwowmuchcool are you, @TannerSmith, @streetcred and others going to play victim for all of your lives? This victim mentality must seep into other areas. How can it not?
The admission process is such a hodgepodge but I think it’s relatively clear that there is some compartmentalizations to the process. To a certain degree there’s no boost because an African American student is not in total competition against a Caucasian student or an Asian student. The percentage of enrollment for African American students has not shifted in any substantial manner at the elite schools Some schools are on the lower end of 6 to 8 percent like Cornell or Dartmouth due to location and other factors and then some like Duke, Columbia or this year Harvard will rise to the 10-12 percent range. It sounds like this year Harvard had an exceptional class of not only Black students but also Asian and Latino. Now I’m not advocating that this is the right way to do it or not but with the consistency of the numbers it feels that these schools through history and process have come to conclusions about what is a potentially successful and diverse class. It is probably more likely that if there was a low scoring student he in all likelihood took a spot from someone of the same ethnicity. I also want to again state this argument only aligns with those who believe that the lions share of the admission process should be based on testing. I do not believe this should be the case.
@gtownhopeful2016 Agree with everything you’ve said. Do you think it is our duty to future generations to make the world more fair?
@Suchwowmuchcool Of course that should be the goal and most people will work to make sure that the world is more fair. In terms of colleges I believe that the university should have the final say, with the exception of state colleges in which I think policies about legacy, urm, etc should be wind down if they still have them.
@picktails Completely disagree with you. The hard factors, the things present in results threads, don’t just stop giving benefit after a certain point. It isn’t like “oh, you achieve better than 60% of our applicants, you receive no more benefit”. On the contrary, the hard factors are the definite application builders and the things that get kids into schools.
Why do you think that is, do you ask?
First, the soft factors you mention, like recs and essays, are pretty much the same after a certain quality of student. Essays and recs can only be so good. And at the Ivy applicant level, they are so top-notch from all the revisions and care they receive that they are almost indistinguishable in quality. In addition, it isn’t like URMs somehow have a monopoly on good essays and recs; they mostly likely come in equal proportions among all groups. It cannot be the reason why, on the results threads, there is such a difference in achievement between accepted students of different races.
Second, talk is cheap. These schools, first and foremost, are trying to create a student body that will be most successful in the future. All essays and recommendations are just talk. The hard factors, the achievements, the successes, are actions. Admissions officers, like every human being out there, believe actions speak far louder than words. So to get the student that is most likely to succeed at their school, would they rather get a kid that went to the International Mathematics Olympiad, or a kid that wrote a nice essay about how he loves math? Any admissions process that believes in its own integrity would take the IMO kid. Would they take the student that literally went to Africa and helped supply running water to a village or the student that had a nice teacher recommendation on how he loves to help people?
Hard factors are the most important, followed by soft factors which, by necessity, must be a sort of tiebreaker.
URMs that are accepted–as you have noted–will usually have qualifications lower than those of other groups. That can only be because of the one substantial hard factor that is in their favor: the URM status.
Finally, “fair” is always in play. In something so important like college admissions, which can have a significant impact on one’s future, the process had better be fair.
Before you respond to me, please read the whole post and comment accordingly. Nothing frustrates me more than trying to argue with someone that didn’t event read what I wrote.
@Duceandaquarter Don’t worry about me playing the victim. My dream school, until only recently, was the University of Michigan. Only around this year have I thought about reaching for places like Princeton (my dream school now). I have actively pursued getting into Princeton, but I won’t be too bummed if I go to UMich at all. In fact, I’ll probably have a blast. If you want to go through my posts to see my stats, you’ll see I have a pretty good chance of getting in at UMich, so I’m pretty content with the way things have played out.
You see, it isn’t about me. It’s about the injustice of the things I have witnessed pertaining to college admissions. Upper-middle class URM kids are receiving beneficial treatment in admissions even though they didn’t earn it. Legacy kids are admitted into schools because their relatives were smart. Then, the Whites and Asians that haven’t even got a taste of the privilege that people spout are shafted and forced to settle for less than they deserve.
You posted:
“The kids who are born with silver spoons in their mouths…they are given a leg up on everyone as far as resources. They didn’t earn them. They were born into that 8,000 sq. foot home in the suburbs, the fancy schooling, the fancy tutors(oh yes, they have $200/hour tutors coming out of their a**ses for almost every subject) the expensive music lessons, the uber educated parents, the exclusive clubs etc…and when they make it to elite colleges they want to voice disdain for those who accomplished Herculean feats without the benefit of mommy & daddy’s money?”
When did I say I was in favor of helping the rich get a leg up? For the record, I am in favor of income-based affirmative action, the fairest kind there is. Most people who share my beliefs are also in favor of income-based affirmative action. No one mentioned rich people, but there you go. That entire paragraph just went to waste.
Interestingly, the URM kids that do end up benefiting from affirmative action are the privileged kind, the very kids you mention that have a “leg up on everyone”. The URM kids that get into Ivies must by necessity be at the top of the URM category in applications, and, as you noted, “Herculean feats” correlate with wealth. It’s ironic how the kids you defend are also the ones you are so angry against. You contradicted yourself unintentionally.
you posted:
“Let’s face it, there are far more of those kids walking the campuses of elite universities than there are black & Hispanic students. At most schools, they make up far less than %10. Get over it. They aren’t taking your spots! Stop looking for someone to blame!!! Stop bitchin & moanin. So ironic how they never **** and moan about the life long indulgences bestowed upon the privileged majority. How can they?”
No, it’s more like both the privileged AND the URMs are taking our spots. As I have noted before, some privileged legacies and URMs would not have gotten in without their status. These are the ones that occupy spots they didn’t deserve and are the reason why other, more deserving and higher achieving students are rejected. And that is the real injustice. When I see kids that should’ve gotten in rejected and kids that should’ve been rejected admitted just because of their race, it is my duty to “**** and moan” and hope to inspire change in the future.
Sigh, I’ll try this one more time. YOU DON’T HAVE A SPOT! 8-|
A small percentage of URMs may have lower test scores but not qualifications. Ad coms constantly state it’s about making the best of your situation. A 4.0 at a public high school in New York City is not the same as a 4.0 at Harvard Westlake in California but both students are equally qualified in the admission process because they are making the best of their academic situation and in all likelihood the difference in education quality will manifest itself in testing which creates the inherent angst of so many of the concerns on these sites.
Does helping the water supply in Africa outweigh working an after school job in order to support your family there are different actions that represent different things to different people based on opportunity and circumstances
That may sway the admissions process.
Seems we’re arguing with a hs junior.
all of you need to stop. get a damn hobby. go outside. think about what you’re doing…sitting in front of a computer arguing with strangers on an 18 year old’s thread. i repeat, get a hobby. moderator, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD.
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The thing is, y’all assume that the reason why blacks and Hispanics are underrepresented is because of their environment and historical upbringing. However, Asians were historically discriminated against as well, and still manage to do extremely well.
But what if I said, the reason why blacks are responsible for so much crime, and have low SAT scores is because of their genetics? Humans have branched off and evolved in separate environments, so it is unreasonable to assume that there is an equal selection for intelligence. If you’ll google it, you’ll find that just about every study finds that the black-white IQ gap is around 15 points. IQ differences begin as young as age 3, so it’s not because of the school system. There’s a lot of studies on it that shows how the IQ gap is partially because of genetics.
That’s why Affirmative Action will never work. That’s why most of Africa never had a written language, and many didn’t even have agriculture.
Anyways I’m expecting y’all use ad hominem and just say I’m racist or whatever. Y’all are going to say that it’s not true just because it’s offensive. But it is what it is.