get off of my thread.
@GA2012MOM Nice job just taking one part of my post an running with it. Did I say they were my spots? I did have a disclaimer where I said that I by no means deserve or had my spot taken. What I did say is that certain people have their spots taken by others simply on the basis of race. Please read what I wrote. Do you disagree with me? If so, try something a little more valid than what you just did.
@Mayihelp I was just arguing Picktail’s mistaken belief that somehow soft factors like essays and recommendations will outweigh hard factors like achievements after some magical point. The African village example was just used to make a point. To run with what you are saying, it is absolutely true that admissions must take into account the circumstances around an application. That is why income-based affirmative action is a far better alternative to race-based. What race-based ends up doing is benefiting upper-middle class URMs that have no business receiving a boost when they have been privileged their entire lives.
There is a myth out there that somehow race-based affirmative action is justified because it helps the URMs that are working jobs to support their family. Let me be clear, the vast majority of URMs admitted are upper middle class kids who have not felt hardship any more than the typical suburban kid. This is because it tends to be the wealthier URMs that have the time and resources to be competitive in the admissions process.
I am completely in favor of giving a boost to the kids in poverty because they truly do endure hardship, with the caveat that it have nothing to do with race.
@collegebound752 Did you not see this coming when you posted this story? The acceptance shaming story has a direct relation to affirmative action, something many people harbor strong feelings towards. Stop acting as if when you posted this thread you were not aware of the consequences. Get off your high horse. You suggested I find a hobby. Well, I am playing a soccer game tonight. Maybe it’s time you took your own advice.
Suchwow, you posted “No, it’s more like both the privileged AND the URMs are taking our spots”.
It sure sounds like you are included in “our”.
I do agree that collegebound should have seen that this article would push peoples buttons.
@GA2012MOM Alright, my bad. “Our” was meant more like the collective, and it was an offhand remark. As in the spots that “we” should all have an equal shot towards.
Tanner finally just comes out fully as racist, no more beating around the bush. Any credible, peer-reviewed research shows there is no different in inherent intelligence. It is the environment and upbringing that is the contributing factor. Classic “nature vs. nurture.” But obviously this high school student believes many fallacies that have floated around forever. Not the way to approach advanced learning.
If you take SWMC’s argument about the majority of URM admits being from middle - upper middle class families (mine included,) you would not find a statistical difference in IQ level between them and other students. Just because you believe something does not make it so.
[-X - interesting @picktails says she’s ‘upper-middle class’ but yet her child got ‘great’ packages (it was merit right?) from schools like Tufts that don’t award Merit (a measly 2500 for NMF) and Northwestern - (gee amazing they would give out 50K in ‘merit’ bringing your cost down to 14K)- Just saying…
@picktails It isn’t about IQ. IQ is a flawed concept that measures intelligence in a way that is subject to bias. In addition, I am of the belief that intelligence cannot be measured by any test; there are so many different variations that trying to account for all of them is impossible. Your simplistic belief that somehow IQ, or even intelligence should determine who should go to top schools is incorrect.
Nothing frustrates me more than when people mischaracterize my argument because they did not read what I wrote. Note I did not say anything about intelligence or IQ. In fact, I also believe I could not find any statistical difference in IQ level between URM admits and other admits. What I said is that the quality of ACHIEVEMENTS differs between these two types of admits. ACHIEVEMENTS are things that come about largely from effort. That is something you agreed with, and tried to brush aside by saying that URMs get in with somehow better essays or recommendations, or the magical trait “passion” that URMs somehow have more of. I addressed the argument earlier in a post and I advise you read it.
In addition, there is no reason to say “If you take SWMC’s argument about the majority of URM admits being from middle - upper middle class families”. Just say that the majority of URM admits come from middle-upper middle class families. It is the truth. No reason to imply that it somehow has some doubt behind it.
Are African Americans considered URM? You ‘elite’ legacies who are funded by daddy are in luck!!
The under-represented minority students group is probably the hook that gets the most attention. Studies show under-represented minorities have higher chances of being admitted. However, the most recent studies suggests being a legacy does more to increase your chances of admissions at highly selective colleges than being an under-represented minority.
<a href=“3 Hooks in College Admissions”>http://diycollegerankings.com/college-admissions-hook/2935/</a>
@TannerSmith - you will appreciate this…Article titled “Researchers find drop in affirmative action use for college admissions decisions”
<a href=“http://dailyuw.com/archive/2014/02/13/news/researchers-find-drop-affirmative-action-use-college-admissions-decisions#.U3-yB3brbFI”>http://dailyuw.com/archive/2014/02/13/news/researchers-find-drop-affirmative-action-use-college-admissions-decisions#.U3-yB3brbFI</a>
The year was 1996, and three white students sued the University of Texas for denying them admissions in order to accept Hispanic and black students instead. What followed was a string of policy changes across the nation that banned granting admissions based on race, gender, disability, or sexuality — also known as affirmative action.
Now, UW researchers have found a drop in the use of such practices in college admissions nationwide.
Suchwowmuchcool. I concur that there should be a social-economic piece to the admissions process. But I already believe that that is in play. Ad coms can tell without financial aid info what environment is surrounding a student. And URMs that have had greater opportunity are not looked at in the same breath as those who have greater challenges. I disagree with your theory that the preponderance of URMS come from affluence (students who do not need FA). So many of these students are still first generation or exist in urban or rural areas where the support academically and socially is still a challenge. You’re right kids who exist in academically challenged environment like mine have more opportunity and will have a more Ivy League like portfolio. Thus making them possibly more marketable to elite universities. However entities like Questbridge have really made a difference and are creating opportunities for some outstanding students who never would have heard of a Williams or a Brown. Aberrations aside.
SWMC, if you would take the time to read the posts of others rather than being so self-absorbed to assume I am only speaking to you, you would realize I was directly answering a post by Tanner. HE raised the issue of IQ.<br>
I mentioned you specifically only in reference to something you said, period. You seem to think very highly of yourself, and do not take the time to do what you so passionately implore others to do - read through the posts. This is a discussion thread, with a variety of contributors. What chutzpa it takes to consider all opinions expressed are directed to you.
To streetcred (ugh, so tired of your simplicism.) I am firmly middle class, and never claimed otherwise. I have nothing to hide - our reported income for FA was around $120 K. Many ivies offer full rides to anyone under $100k So it is not at all unusual that we were offered some very generous aid packages.
I have an older son at a more “normal,” college in upstate NY. Our annual aid is only $3k a year - an astounding difference. But if you knew as much as you claim you would be aware of the no-loan, generous aid policies based on income offered in the top tier.
We were quite astounded by the aid that kept coming from Northwestern. My D even received a phone call from a student in the admissions office asking if she could “help with anything.” So again, obviously these schools highly value diversity.
@picktails Is it an accident I thought that the second half of your post was directed to me? Your writing is pretty unfocused and seems to address multiple people at a time. Let me show you what your writing actually says to a reader.
“Tanner finally just comes out fully as racist, no more beating around the bush. Any credible, peer-reviewed research shows there is no different in inherent intelligence. It is the environment and upbringing that is the contributing factor. Classic “nature vs. nurture.” But obviously this high school student believes many fallacies that have floated around forever. Not the way to approach advanced learning.”
You seem to be addressing either the entire forum here. You clearly are not addressing Tanner, because you refer to him in third person. This is about as far away from “directly answering” Tanner as it gets.
“If you take SWMC’s argument about the majority of URM admits being from middle - upper middle class families (mine included,) you would not find a statistical difference in IQ level between them and other students. Just because you believe something does not make it so.”
Who is “you” here? You never even tag Tanner or mention him in second-person until this paragraph. You do mention my name. So to me, it looked like you shifted from addressing the entire forum and then addressed me, because I was the most recent proper pronoun you mentioned.
Don’t call me arrogant for a mistake I made that was largely the result of your unorganized, unclear writing.
@suchwowmuchcool my article deals with the consequences of speculating about why a kid was admitted and thus stripped the kid of their right to joy and pride. it is not about whether or not affirmative action exists or what the impact of it is. this thread has turned into nothing but useless race-bashing, name-calling and mud-slinging. these are not “consequences” anyone would expect after posting a link to an article they wrote ABOUT the effects of doing exactly what you no-lives are doing. get over YOURself.
@collegebound752
You mentioned that this thread turned into name-calling, yet that’s exactly what you are doing yourself. Calling people on this thread “no-lives”.
@mayihelp Correction, admissions officers typically do not see financial aid statements because they go to a different office. The way admissions officers usually learn about hardships is by reading counselor recommendations.
"I disagree with your theory that the preponderance of URMS come from affluence (students who do not need FA). So many of these students are still first generation or exist in urban or rural areas where the support academically and socially is still a challenge. You’re right kids who exist in academically challenged environment like mine have more opportunity and will have a more Ivy League like portfolio. Thus making them possibly more marketable to elite universities. However entities like Questbridge have really made a difference and are creating opportunities for some outstanding students who never would have heard of a Williams or a Brown. Aberrations aside. "
Well, picktails did seem to agree with me. The “theory” that URM admits are typically affluent is a fact. First, don’t mischaracterize what I said. I said the majority of URMs are those that are middle or upper-middle class. Not those who do not need FA.
Let me explain why this is a fact and not a theory. Of what social status are the majority of Whites that are admitted? Middle class+. Of what social status are the majority of Asians that are admitted? Middle class+. Why is this the case? Well, those who live in relative affluence typically have more time and more resources to dedicate to academics, ECs, and competitions. Those who are in poverty, except for the very few, don’t even have education as their main priority. Their priority, sadly enough, is survival. They have to work shifts, babysit their baby siblings, etc. Thus, few of any race in poverty ever make the steep academic cutoff that is needed to even get into a college, let alone an Ivy.
This is exactly the same with URMs. Those that are in poverty are left to fend for themselves, while those who are relatively affluent feed off a boost they didn’t earn. Except for the very exceptional few that make it out of the slums, the admissions battle is fought on the middle class+ arena, because an overwhelming majority of those qualified to even apply to Ivies are middle class+.
Do you want to know why the income-based affirmative action, which would support those who actually are struggling is such a popular policy among Asians and Whites and a disliked policy among URMs? Because they know the truth that income-based would essentially wipe out a large percentage of URMs in top schools. Those exceptional kids that are able to balance school and supporting their family happen to occur in larger absolute numbers in the White and Asian races. It is not a “theory”, it is a fact that the URMs that are accepted are almost overwhelmingly middle class+.
The poor do indeed get a boost in admissions, but the upper class URM spots could be further given to them instead. I mean, if the reason you believe Affirmative Action should exist is because a lot URMs are disadvantaged, why not just help the disadvantaged directly and just make it income-based? Just get rid of any race-based affirmative action and increase the boost the poor get. Your beliefs sound pretty close to mine. Wouldn’t that be reasonable?
Whew, that was long-winded.
@collegebound752 I don’t know, GA2012MOM seems to agree with what I said. Can you point to any race-bashing, name-calling, or mud-slinging in this thread that aren’t the result of trolls? Can you point to anything that I did? It is your fault for starting this discussion, and if you didn’t want it, then you shouldn’t have posted it. Stop feigning ignorance and own up to your actions.
In addition, why is it those kids’ have a right to joy and pride when they themselves may have stolen that joy and pride from another, more deserving candidate for admission? That is why people “acceptance shame”. Through preferential admissions, deserving candidates are being skipped over in favor of less deserving ones on the basis of race. Explain to me why it is such a sin to you.
Ah but to me ( and yes, to be clear, I am respinding to swmc,) the value of a diverse student body goes well beyond attempting to right past wrongs. There is real academic value in discussing, debating with and learning from people who have to prove themselves daily based on appearance. The experiences of any URM, regardless of class status, is wholly different than the majority.
I think it was stated best at the Yale info session, to paraphrase - "it would be a disservice for us to fill your classes with 20 other people who look as you do, for it would eliminate an important aspect of education. " Granted, some people such as yourself will argue with this value system, but I was bolstered to learn that the philosophy at one of the best schools in the world matched my own.
Omg. Suchwow, you really don’t know. You’re pushing bad info, based solely on your perspective, as a hs kid, yet to go through this process. And you are mighty defensive, asking numerous times, did I say that, when did I mention that- and variants. “Can you point to anything that I did?” Yes, we can.
Have you ever looked at the Common App? Do you know what it asks, how details come through to adcoms and what adcoms look for? Do you know how adcoms work with their regions to understand socio-economics, various schools’ strengths and weaknesses? Or what proportions of applicants request finaid consideration? What a typical LoR actually conveys? That’s just for starters.
What makes you so sure you have special insight? What world experience? You argue your points very much like a hs kid- pushing certainty (the thesis statement and vigorous “proofs” being a goal in high school writing.) But that’s not translatable to the college admissions discussion. It’s a big world out there, do you know hs outside your home town, know them in depth, academic opportunities, cultural exposure, leadership experience? what these kids you knock are really doing with their time? I don’t think so. You cling to stereotypes.
So many top performing kids come to their app seasons with the sort of preconceived notions you hold- and trip over their own feet.
ps. OP should not be a target here. Period. It’s one thing to hijack a thread, another to get aggressive with the folks wanting things back on track.