<p>Just as a post-script. Now that a few days have passed since the kids learned about their schools, the place is returning to normal. The good kids are focused on where they are going, not where they were rejected. Most are genuinely happy for each other. The one kid that still seems to be attracting resentment is one who known to the other kids as a cheater, and he got into some truly impressive schools.</p>
<p>I think the kids that are most proud of their college admissions are the ones walking around with their UT Austin, Texas A&M, and Oklahoma shirts ;-).......Stanford? When did they last win the national championship?</p>
<p>^Sorry I didn't mean actually TOSS SHOES shoes in the last paragraph...I meant 'do a cartwheel' or 'jump up and down', etc....</p>
<p>rick - These things always pass. But what kids don't realize is you can't take back ugly words and it is hard to forget. Things were said to my d about her acceptances and being a Nat'l Hispanic Scholar (they always ignored the NMF and the rest of the package of course... ;) ) These were good friends who were not happy with themselves and my d realized this. The friendships have endured, but I don't think my d will ever forget. She is much more guarded now about her successes. (That's okay...her grandparents have taken on the 'bragging' duties...lol!)</p>
<p>^National Hispanic Scholarship Program (Scholars) is sponsored by College Board. National Merit (Commended, Finalists and Scholars) and Nat'l Achievement Scholarship Program (Scholars) are sponsored by the National Merit Corporation.</p>
<p>
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Chances are, whether URMs get a tip or not, you're NOT getting into an Ivy League school.
[/quote]
Everyone is well aware of this, IDmom. </p>
<p>
[quote]
And why does the ridiculous idea that URMs are eating up all those coveted 'Ivy spots' gain so much friggin' traction while no one ever seems gets their panties in much of a bunch over all the moronic alumni or connected kids who are admitted to the elite schools. (I'm not exactly overwhelmed by Ivanka's or Donnie, Jr's Ivy-quality intellect ya know...)
[/quote]
Who said URMs are "eating up all those coveted" spots? Not me! I'm just trying to have some understanding for the disappointed 90%. The kids who are all terrific, but are scrambling around, searching for some answer as to why they were shut out.</p>
<p>
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When I was growing up, legacies admits were considered to be fortunate, but certainly weren't asked to justify their presence at universities. I think that most people still probably feel the same way.
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Northstar, I think there is enormous resentment of the leg up a legacy gets. It's just not racially charged, like the URM tip. A rejected kid isn't going to feel any better being rejected in favor of a legacy than a URM. It still stings, regardless of who is welcomed in while you are on the outside looking in. (Yes, yes, we have no way of knowing all the unpublicized qualifications that the legacy kid, URM, athlete, or North Dakota ranch kid brings to the table in addition to their tip.)</p>
<p>Yes goodole me is from the heart of Houston. Rick12 I do apologize, I should not have in any way made your daughter feel she did not deserve to be accepted by Rice because she is Hispanic. Shame on me. My D does not have a higher SAT than yours - I only saw the first number, not the 2300, amazing how disappointment affects sight, seeing only what I wanted to see.</p>
<p>I was disappointed though that #16 and #34 and recently found out #22 also were all accepted by Rice. My D is a first generation college student and is#2in her class of 722 students, much better resume than #16, #22 and #34 - my D was waitlisted, they were all accepted - the only difference I can see was their race.</p>
<p>My D is deciding if it is worth waiting out the waitlist. Apparently Rice had almost 9000 applicants for 740 spots - do not know how many were waitlisted. My D was told at her school that Rice will not offer any merit scholarship if she happens to get moved off the waitlist to the accepted list and if all the financial aid is used up by the time waitlisted students are decided on, there will be no $$ offered by Rice (off course that is hear say). We cannot afford a Rice education without some scholarships, etc. D is now deciding between Baylor and UT.</p>
<p>Rick12 good luck with your daughter, I am sure she will do fine wherever she goes. Congrats!!! I am sure I will look back in a few days and say 'why the disappointment'.</p>
<p>SS - What you said is that if URMs didn't want to be questioned about their 'worthiness', they should give up the tip. And frankly your statement that somehow a kid was 'shutout' because a URM got a spot implies you make the presumption that URMs are unworthy until proven not.</p>
<p>Why should any URM defend or explain themself to someone like you? What's the upside on that one?</p>
<p>goodoleme - I think here in Texas, we have been conditioned into thinking rank is everything. Several kids (many of them minorities) in our district with higher ranks than my d were flat out rejected by Rice. </p>
<p>I think the thing that kept my kid on the table at least to the waitlist with Rice was the dvd of her NHD performance and some other ec items. I think the NMF thing helped, but just a little. In the end, none of it mattered though, even being Hispanic. It was explained to us well at a parent information session during my d's junior year...Rice has so few spots in each freshman class and each spot is carefully designed with the goal of creating a class with diverse interests, career goals and life experiences. Last year may have been the year Rice received a ton of applications that looked identical to my d's...all of them highly qualified, all who could succeed at Rice University. Unfortunately, only a few spots available for a student like my daughter and she wasn't selected. It is disappointing, but it does not equal failure.</p>
<p>I wish your D well in deciding what to do. For the record, ldgirl's friend are having a blast at UT and she still has twinges about opting to go off, all alone, to school in NC. (Only brief twinges...she does love her choice.)</p>
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[quote]
And frankly your statement that somehow a kid was 'shutout' because a URM got a spot implies you make the presumption that URMs are unworthy until proven not.
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Idmom, I would suggest that you either have reading comprehension problems or worse, some freaky, sinister, suspicious nature, to find that implication in anything I wrote.</p>
<p>Truth is, URM tips exist. A URM will always be viewed as a beneficiary of a tip, regardless how stellar his achievements are. As long as tips exist, whether you need one or not, your achievements are tainted. If you are too dense to understand that, your D may be blindsided some day. But that's an issue for you & her to handle. I'm merely trying to present the understandable, yet perhaps poorly expressed, frustration of the tipless 90%.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As long as tips exist, whether you need one or not, your achievements are tainted.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not true. Although, true in your mind, obviously.</p>
<p>My white son no doubt had a "tip" in his LAC admission because males are more in demand there. Does that taint his admission, in your mind? Just asking.</p>
<p>Oh I don't think I have a reading comprehension problem at all SS; read over your own posts.</p>
<p>"Shutout" because of a minority student's acceptance implies the shutout student would have rec'd an acceptance if not for the minority student...that the minority student would NOT have been accepted and the shutout student WOULD have been accepted in their stead....because WHY?? Because the shutout student was more qualified (you mean to say)?? NO? You tell me then.</p>
<p>Talk about having it both ways. You want to SAY one thing and mean another...lol!</p>
<p>Btw...I think calling someone 'dense' is a little immature for an adult don't you? (Oh that's right...you didn't CALL me dense, you just said "IF I was too dense". Maybe it's another case of saying one thing and meaning another? Oh my.)</p>
<p>I don't think people believe that spots are being "eaten up" by URMs, or legacies, or whatever.<br>
However...(Gosh I hate to go here)
When looking over the scattergrams for various colleges at our hs, the counselor literally told us to not take them too seriously because the data included athletes, URMs, legacies, and other special cases. She was specifically talking about the green dots at the left side of the graph. Basically saying, "assume it is more difficult to get into this school than it appears on this scattergram." (Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....mwaahh haaa haaa haaa...)</p>
<p>Statements like those give credence to the fallacy that it is easier to get in if you fall into those categories, harder if you don't. Problem is, no one knows how much harder it is, if it really is harder. </p>
<p>There have been any number of discussions about how much better the system would be if there were more transparency. In terms of stats, I'm not really interested in what it takes for a legacy, athlete, URM or anyone else to get into a school (and yes, I recognize there's more to it than grades and scores, but that's a big part of it)- I'm interested in what it takes for MY KID to get in. I wish schools were a little more forthcoming with that information.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A URM will always be viewed as a beneficiary of a tip
[/quote]
Only by people who make racist assumptions about others. </p>
<p>In my entire adult life I have never made that assumption about a black or hispanic professional that I have met or worked with. I suppose if I were to encounter one who was totally inept or incompetent, the thought would come to mind... but that has never happened. I was a lawyer for many years, and some of the most brilliant lawyers who I admired most were URMs -- I was in awe of their skills and went to them for advice or tried to emulate their courtroom techniques.</p>
<p>good-oleme, if your daughter was #2 in a class of 722 and got waitlisted I can understand your pain. You don't get to be ranked that high without an incredible sacrifice. My D's admission to the architecture school at Rice probably had less to do with being a URM than with being a legacy. My wife and I know probably half of the faculty in the school, and her portfolio had the kind of polish you would expect from a kid with two architects for parents. I would love for her to go to Rice, but I am afraid that she wants out of Texas. She also spent a night in a dorm with some other freshmen, and didn't like it. That is hard to overcome.</p>
<p>My acceptance to Harvard was no doubt tainted by the legacy tip. However I like to think that graduating magna cum laude would make up for it. ;) </p>
<p>Once they've put together the pile of qualified applicants - is it so terrible that some get tips and some don't? I think Stanford puts too much emphasis on athletes, that's my problem not theirs.</p>
<p>Doubleplay, I could see why your high school g.c. would caution against placing too much value on the lower end of the scattergram -- but as you said, the belief that it all the lower scores are accounted for by tip factors is a fallacy. </p>
<p>What could be truthfully said is that they all had something special to outweigh their weaker scores -- which could have been one of those tip factors, but could also be something else. Musical talent. A published writer. Just <em>something</em> that makes that applicant special in the eyes of the college. </p>
<p>I can't believe that it was a fluke that my white middle class daughter (with two college-educated parents) -- was admitted to three separate universities where her SATs put her in the bottom quartile. She had something to put in her application that set her apart from the pack. </p>
<p>And I can't believe that she is the only one. I think there are some kids who just stand out because of something they have done that is not reflected in their class rank, GPA, or test scores-- and Naviance doesn't tell the whole story. </p>
<p>High-end colleges do not accept students unless they are reasonably certain that the student is capable of doing well there. They don't want students who are going to flunk out, and they don't want students who are going to have to be tutored every step of the way to stay afloat. They are looking for evidence that the kid will do well. Sometimes that evidence comes in a form that isn't reflected well by the numbers.</p>
<p>And ldgirl said the exact same thing when the female (white) athlete from her high school with no ecs other than her sport and a borderline SAT/rank got into Rice. </p>
<p>But what bothers me are those who would exaggerate one aspect of the admissions process (the minority tip) for the express purpose of condemning it as cause of all problems.</p>