Admission has been a bittersweet experience

Parents Forum
101

<p>Oh puhleeze....if the minority tip were all that, then why didn't my d get into Harvard? What more could Harvard ask for than an Hispanic NMF with killer ecs and a bunch of national awards? How much anecdotal evidence do ya need before the reality finally sinks in? It's just delusional to fall back on the idea that 'if not for that black kid over there or the Hispanic kid around the corner, I would have been accepted at Harvard'. And I don't think it's a question that most non-URMs are pondering, unless they are stupid. Chances are, whether URMs get a tip or not, you're NOT getting into an Ivy League school.</p>

<p>And why does the ridiculous idea that URMs are eating up all those coveted 'Ivy spots' gain so much friggin' traction while no one ever seems gets their panties in much of a bunch over all the moronic alumni or connected kids who are admitted to the elite schools. (I'm not exactly overwhelmed by Ivanka's or Donnie, Jr's Ivy-quality intellect ya know...)</p>

102

<p>"I disagree! If AA did not exist, then no URM's success would be questioned. So it's not "inherent prejudices," but rather AA that puts URMs in the defensive position & makes non-URMs question whether they'd get in without the tip. "</p>

<p>It is fascinating to me that we had decades of legacy tips in the U.S. -- legacy tips that basically went to well off white people, especially white males, the gender and race that until recently comprised the majority of college students.</p>

<p>When I was growing up, legacies admits were considered to be fortunate, but certainly weren't asked to justify their presence at universities. I think that most people still probably feel the same way.</p>

<p>The reason that URMs get targeted by people who wonder if they deserve admission is that URMs are not fungible due to the way they look. Because of their appearance, they stand out. And, they stand out due to their race -- and in our society, there are a lot of negative assumptions made in general due to people's having black, brown or red skin color.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, however, males -- including white males -- are getting admissions tips at many colleges including top ones because males -- including white males are in increasingly short supply when it comes to being excellent candidates for colleges. This particularly is true when it comes to LACs, which have a hard time attracting male applicants. </p>

<p>Historically, too, well off white males were the people who got to go to college over applicants and potential applicants who were much more qualified, but happened to be nonwhite or happened to be female. When I went to Harvard, 3 out of 4 Harvard students were male. This was deliberately done by admissions. Everyone knew that the women at Harvard were smarter than the guys. However, i've never seen a guy who seemed to be ashamed who went to Harvard during the couple of hundred years in which males got clear preference to more qualified women.</p>

103

<p>Is this the spot where someone writes that it's not the minorities eating up the coveted Ivy spots, but the athletes?</p>

<p>...she said, ducking...</p>

<p>(mother of an athlete, here, so just kidding!!!)</p>

104

<p>Sybbie--post #70</p>

<p>Not to belabor this point but some colleges DO ask for parents' place of birth and citizenship information along with college attended etc. Since I recall providing this information to my daughter, I checked the application for Columbia (not common app) that is still available online. There must be other colleges too which ask this, though I am not inclined to check them all out and some apps are no longer available--I tried looking for Stanford.
<a href="http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/applications/firstyear.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/applications/firstyear.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The original poster may have recollected giving out such an information to his daughter.</p>

105

<p>I really had no idea what I was stirring up, but I guess I should fill in the picture of my D. Something I did not do because I thought it would be bragging ;-) Let me clarify one thing; I never saw any of my daughter's applications or essays, she did them on her own and did not show them to her parents or counselor. I did see an empty application where they asked for information about the parents. My advice to her on filling out the application was to keep it to herself and follow her conscience. Just don't be ashamed to be hispanic like I was at her age.</p>

<p>SAT 1570, overall 2300+
Top 10% of her class
13 AP courses with no grade less than a 5
Girl Scout Gold Award
Master Musician on the flute
Captain of the drum line
Multiple awards for her artwork, and a terrific body of work in her portfolio (required at Rice, Cornell and Wash U.)
All the expected community service activities
Legacy at Rice and UVA</p>

<p>She also attends an affluent public school, both parents have masters degrees, she does not qualify for any aid, and Cuban Americans are hardly the most disenfranchised minority. As a biased parent I thought she was a pretty good candidate, but so were several of her classmates, though I do not have specifics about their scores. I based my comments on how highly she thought of them, and how upset she was that they did not get their schools of choice.</p>

<p>Regards,
rick</p>

106

<p>rick12, you stirred up quite a discussion! If you do not think your daughter went 6/6 including backups cornell, rice, etc. because she was hispanic, then look at my daughter's stats and tell me why she was waitlisted at rice.
SAT 2110 (highter than your daughter)
Top 1% of her class (not top 10%)
9 AP courses with no grade less than a 5
Team Captain - Tennis
Champ in Tennis
Four year elected student council
President of largest service club in her high school
Tons of community service - featured in several newspapers for volunteer work, Girls State, multiple awards at state level, great recommendation letters yada yada yada
Waitlisted at Rice and rejected by Cornell/Princeton. I will not discuss her race but it was NOT hispanic or african/american
Students who were #16 and #34 in her class, no leadership, some community service - higher SAT (not much) both ACCEPTED by Rice, both African/American
what do you think was the selling point for your D?</p>

107

<p>
[quote]
How do you think her other apps were different?

[/quote]
Her latter apps spoke directly and honestly about herself and why she does what she does. The Harvard app just said stuff she thought an admissions officer wanted her to say. This was due to a lot of reasons, some of which were my fault. It was my first time going through the process, and I just didn't know what my role was supposed to be. Experience has shown me that I was much too involved in the process initially, trying to influence school choices while the poor girl was actually developing her app. After some reading here on CC, I figured it out pretty quick. Also, the admissions gods had everything under control. She ended up exactly where she belongs, and today is very happy.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If people suggested to you or your daughter that she got into a school only because she was black, how did you handle it?

[/quote]
Well, I handle it by taking the hit, and after being very honest with myself about why it hurts, I move on without any response at all. My kids just nod and move on. You know, when a guy gets to the point of telling you you don't rate because of AA, there is just no point in trying to deal with him. And it is not because of AA that URMs are put in the "defensive position", StickerShock. Blacks have been on the defense ever since we were forced to these cursed shores and forced to stay here so that now, even if we wished to leave we have no place to call home. Because of that history, and all the intense and supremely degrading horrors that came with it, our whole society is still virulently prejudiced against blacks - especially against blacks. When people overlook this fifty-'leven ton elephant to whine against my kids because of the little mouse that is AA, you know without any doubt at all that these people can't be reasoned with. No use arguing. Just keep going.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Did you tell them her scores or ignore them?

[/quote]
Ignore them. I have found it very difficult to tell scores in these circumstances without sounding like I am bragging. I have done it, mostly because I allowed my pride to overtake me. But these days I try not to do it. They're not my scores anyway.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I also did not get the impression the OP was bragging.

[/quote]
I don't think he was bragging at all.</p>

108

<p>
[quote]
what do you think was the selling point for your D?

[/quote]
Well, if I understand rick12, his kid nailed a 2300+, including an 800 and 770 on the math and critical reading. If so, then that is more than a 2110. Add to that her flute talent, which could be used in an orchestra, her artistic talents, superior academics, and all that other stuff, including being a legacy, and I am seeing so many hooks on this kid you can't even think about her without getting stuck. And I haven't even thrown in the URM thing yet. Now, if she can also express who she is, and I suspect she can being a musician and artist, well, her selection just makes sense. I think your kid looks good too, but when it comes to the raw figures, both are very highly attractive candidates. I can see why a school would accept one over the other, especially a school that wants a flute-playing artist.</p>

109

<p>to the new poster,
Your D was waitlisted, not rejected. W/listed means evaluated as on a par with accepted students. This week there are hundreds of such waitlisted students all across the land, because the quality and quantity of high school accomplishment is truly awesome. </p>

<p>It is too complex to compare mere lists with each other. Lists do not tell the story, other than obviously the Rice admissions committee was quite inspired by your D, and there have to be far fewer w/listed than rejected.</p>

<p>If there was a tip that put the OP's D from the waitlist to the acceptance pile, it could have been the art, as that is not something that the majority of otherwise accomplished students bring to their applications.</p>

<p>Other than that, you are asking questions that neither the OP nor anyone else NOT on the Rice Admissions committtee would be in a position to answer. It is incomplete information.</p>

110

<p>NSM...you are so right about the tipping factor for white males. That is happening. Absolutely. My theory is that girls have become super- diligent--a feat rarely achievable for your average hormone addled boy--of any race.</p>

<p>Dross...I know what you're talking about. I think I made the same constricting mistakes as the editor of S1's apps (no GC here).. He is a dandelion kid though, blooming wildly where he was planted. Luckily, I learned my lessons.</p>

<p>S2 let loose and his 'voice' was much clearer without my nervous edit.</p>

111

<p>
[quote]
rick12, you stirred up quite a discussion! If you do not think your daughter went 6/6 including backups cornell, rice, etc. because she was hispanic, then look at my daughter's stats and tell me why she was waitlisted at rice.
SAT 2110 (highter than your daughter)
Top 1% of her class (not top 10%)
9 AP courses with no grade less than a 5
Team Captain - Tennis
Champ in Tennis
Four year elected student council
President of largest service club in her high school
Tons of community service - featured in several newspapers for volunteer work, Girls State, multiple awards at state level, great recommendation letters yada yada yada
Waitlisted at Rice and rejected by Cornell/Princeton. I will not discuss her race but it was NOT hispanic or african/american

[/quote]
Obviously a conspiracy against the Aryan race. What other possible conclusion can be drawn? <cue the="" wagner=""> (Hint. Look at the OP kid's 1570, 2300+ to a 2110. Gee, maybe that had something to do with it. LOL. )</cue></p>

<p>You people slay me.</p>

112

<p>I am new here and I am surprised at the hostile tone of so many posts. I had to double check to see if I was in the Parents forum and to my dismay, I was! </p>

<p>In just one thread I have been exposed to several rotten human emotions including envy, resentment, jealousy, arrogance, and selfishness from parents, who amazingly expect their kids to behave differently!!</p>

<p>Top counselors (private and not) will tell you that admission to the top universities and ivies is just ...crapshoot!!!! If you happen to look at the Ivy acceptances of those CCers that have posted them, you will find that there is no specific pattern. Stats, nor ECs, nor ethnic status alone have any value at the time of predicting an admission. These schools are looking to build a mosaic. The mosaic that THEY choose to have. Your kid may be the perfect piece of the mosaic for Cornell and not for Princeton, because each school may be missing a DIFFERENT piece. Or even worse (and painful) your genius of a child, with no personality or without a passion may not be part of ANY of the TOP schools mosaics. That is just the way it is. The lack of understanding this fact will set us up for a big disappointment.</p>

<p>As far as the question of ethnicity, a lot of the posters are showing their lack of sensitivity and the most ugly ignorance ( most likely fueled by their own frustrations ) Who are any of us to question the OP's feelings about considering himself a minority or not?. Did you know that the term "latino" has very different meanings to different nationalities?
For AA purposes, cubans were never considered "minorities" because their number of professionals, their income, etc was closer to that of the whites anglos. Mexican americans, blacks, puertorricans living in the US ( not those living in the island) and native americans were the minorities. Are some of you suggesting that someone from Nepal is an URM just because there is not enough of them around?? </p>

<p>To appease those of you who feel so threatened by the idea of the unsurmountable advantage of an URM, I will dare to indulge you further with a specific candidate that I happen to know. 1600 SATs ( 2005), SATs 3 subjects all 800. ACT 35. National Merit Scholar. National Hispanic Scholar. Valedictorian. Private school with hardest curriculum. School sends many students to the ivies. She was eventually chosen Presidential Scholar (do u know what that is?...About 2 students per state who meet with the President in the White House as a reward to her academics. Tons of well directed ECs and a flawless community service record. This is what is called the "super latina" in admissions terms. The kid was born in the US of hispanic parents who happen to be affluent and both professionals. The outcome? Wailisted at Harvard, Yale and Princeton. Can anyone explain it ? NO. This kid's standing was among the top 150 students in the country ( out of 1.4 million ) yet, these top universities did not accept her and she never cleared their wailtists. According to some of you her "hispanic" status should have made her a shoo-in. She just was not the piece of the mosaic that these schools were creating that year. May be they did not see her passion, or did not like her personality. In any case, she was crushed because she did not get into her dream school regardless of her awesome academic credentials and her "unsurmountable" hispanic advantage.</p>

<p>I believe that rick12 came to this forum with a sincere question. There is no arrogance nor disdain in his comments. He was just a puzzled and proud parent. People's nastiness even drove him off the forum!. Someone's perceived arrogance may just be the result of the other person's true insecurity. In the words of a well known modernist poet....."Envy has destroyed nations......." It is easy to see what it can do to a rational discussion and to an attempt to the exchange of ideas.</p>

113

<p>
[quote]
These schools are looking to build a mosaic. The mosaic that THEY choose to have. Your kid may be the perfect piece of the mosaic for Cornell and not for Princeton

[/quote]
GASP - or for Princeton and not for Cornell, as my "Supabrotha" kid just discovered.</p>

114

<p>
[quote]
She was eventually chosen Presidential Scholar (do u know what that is?...About 2 students per state who meet with the President in the White House as a reward to her academics.

[/quote]
Were they out of ice cream? :)</p>

115

<p>For those who are comparing Rick's daughter's stats with those of other applicants:</p>

<p>This is not a valid comparison and would not be valid regardless of her ethnicity. Rick's daughter applied to several of her schools as a prospective architecture major. Portfolios play a very strong role in the evaluation of architecture students; they are not admitted on the basis of stats alone. </p>

<p>Consider this: at Cornell, the SAT scores of entering architecture students are lower than those of students in any of the other six undergraduate colleges. Yet Cornell's architecture program is widely regarded as the best in the country. The architecture students are certainly not inferior; they are among the best in the nation in their specialty, something that cannot necessarily be said for students in Cornell's other divisions. It's simply that the SAT is not a good predictor of how well students will do in architecture; admissions decisions are based largely on other criteria.</p>

116

<p>Note to parents
My friends and I studied night and day for four years, prepared our EC's and sweated through every test knowing the price of falling short statistically- only to find a lazy B student legacy beside me in class once I arrived at my final destination school. The year I applied to the Ivy League the results proved to be a slaughter too. You don't hear B or B+ students complain only kids who worked to the bone complain. And there is a good reason when you see mediocre, lazy students get in because of Mommy or Daddy or because of heritage. Like it or not parents that hurts. And to those parents who have no idea what it is like at school- the kids discuss openly as does the high school who got in where. There are maps, or BB's and lists mounted outside the office stating who is going where and most schools are proud of who got in where. So when there is a "slaughter" and top hardworking students get rejected and so so students get into the Ivy's obviously the logical question is WHY? Yes there is bitterness and a great deal of disappointment- are you people kidding? It is the first time most of us see the world for what it is- the old saying parents-" it is not what you know but who you know" is expressed when a rich kid gets into your dream school and his or her grades are crappy compared to others who missed the mark. So it would be nice for transparency but that will only happen in schools that do not take legacies or have quota trends to satisfy. I think its sick when I read that some kid who has a perfect average and perfect 800's and EC's didnt get in because "grades and 800's don't matter as much". Does anyone have any idea what that level of achievement represents in time and sweat??
And then some kid whose daddy is a BIG CEO or politico or whatever and his or her lazy b or c+ student glides in- YOU BET KIDS ARE BITTER! walk a mile in their shoes before pontificating- Kids are taking it hard for a good reason! Yes there is a school for everybody but I think the lists of TOP SCHOOLS are fixed anyway. I am not bitter I am trying to set some of the parents straight on what is really going on inside the high schools and colleges. Once you are in though "you" really don't care about the system "you" made it "they" didnt.</p>

117

<p>rick12</p>

<p>I wouldn't worry too much about other people's jealousy. Just help your D make a wise choice and prepare well for the college life to come. It is only a begining. No one could argue about success. I wish your D best outcome four years later.</p>

118

<p>


What is your definition of "bitter"? ;)</p>

119

<p>As an ex-Bitteroholic I speak with authority when I say that bitterness begets underperformance in life.</p>

120

<p>goodoleme - Would you happen to be from Houston? </p>

<p>My d fits the 'superLatina' label I suppose, but was waitlisted at Rice. Rice only enrolls about 1000 kids every year and practically every high performing kid in Houston applies there. They could fill the freshman class with qualified Houstonians, but they are a private institution with a desire to protect their 'national' image, which compels them to seek geographic diversity. Our school in the Houston suburbs never manages to get more than few acceptances to Rice every year and this year our Rice allotment was filled with athletic recruits. (GASP! Athletic TIP trumps Minority TIP at Rice...call the media!)</p>

<p>D wasn't horribly disappointed...she and her other classmates were warned by school counselors about their chances at Rice. She was accepted at more selective schools and honors programs than Rice, so she gets that it was a demographic issue. </p>

<p>As I've said, the URM tip isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I would be surprised if Rick's d rec'd any tip at all for her Cuban heritage. (She might have if she had been an immigrant herself or the child of recent immigrants.) As he mentioned, his d has not known financial hardship, her parents are college-educated and the Cuban-American community is not typically viewed as disfranchised as is, for example, the Mexican American or Puerto Rican-American community.</p>

<p>Rick - your kid is just learning a hard lesson about how people act when they are disappointed. Some people are great and can look past disappointment and feel true happiness for the success of others. Many people aren't built this way, are consumed with jealousy and will lash out. From this, your d will learn to protect herself and she will learn the importance of privacy in certain circumstances. Cold hard truth...most of the rest of world isn't going to throw flipflops over your personal successes. That's what families and loved ones are for... :)</p>