Advantage disadvantage

Colleges and Universities A-Z Binghamton University - SUNY
1

Do Advantage students pay Binghamton’s roorm and board fees to get Broome Community College academics. Looks very expensive for community college. Binghamton can fill their expensive dorms without having to provide an education to students for 2 years. What? Binghamton probably does not include the SAT or ACT scores of Advantage students in their published information about the incoming class or the transfers. They can give the appearance of still being competitive because they have excluded the low scores completely. The actual average for the incoming class could be hundreds of points below what they publish. A student would save a ton by simply enrolling in community college.

From newspaper article by Sara Tracey " Students pay SUNY Broome tuition, at about $4,070 for in-state students compared to BU’s $6,170 tuition for the 2014-15 year. Students also pay a $2,224 Advantage Program fee, but do not pay the extra fees required of students accepted at each institution under traditional programs. Financial aid is available. Costs are structured with a similarly hybrid approach. Students can live in the BU residence halls, where they pay about $15,000 for room and board.
"

Could it be possible that total fees for students getting Broome Community college academics are the same as those getting Binghamton University academics? If it is not the same, does anyone know how much is saved?

2

“Binghamton probably does not include the SAT or ACT scores of Advantage students in their published information about the incoming class or the transfers. They can give the appearance of still being competitive because they have excluded the low scores completely. The actual average for the incoming class could be hundreds of points below what they publish”.

Hundreds of points lower than what they publish? Ridiculous. Let’s try a little math. In the fall of 2014, there were 2,528 full-time and 74 part-time freshman, for a total of 2.602. Their mean SAT scores were 629 CR, 660 M and 622 W There were 200 Binghamton Advantage students, up for 40 four years ago. If those 200 students scored 100 points lower on each test (and I’d guess it’s less than 100 per test), it would lower the mean for the group by about 8 points per test. Binghamton Advantage students are considered transfer students when enter Binghamton as sophomores or juniors and not included in the reported SAT scores, but even with 200 Binghamton Advantage students included in last year’s freshman class, they would represent less than 8% of the total. In a similar manner, the 139 EOP students included in the reported scores with a mid-range CR/M of 1010-1110 do not significantly lower the reported scores.

Conspiracy theories aside, I wonder if the Binghamton Advantage program has grown because juniors and seniors did not chose to live on campus in the new dorms in the numbers anticipated by the university. This year, returning students were asked to make their housing preferences for next year in the fall, which will give the university a better idea of available dorm space.

I don’t think I’d recommend Binghamton Advantage to a student, given that the cost is comparable to attending a SUNY school that they have been admitted to and they could always apply to transfer to Binghamton after a year or two if they still wanted to go to Binghamton. Binghamton Advantage students also have to live in break housing, deal with transportation issues to and from Broome, and their meal plan does not include food at Broome, but the program is obviously popular as it guarantees a transfer to Binghamton is GPA requirements are met.

3

dcalb1, it is not a conspiracy theory any more than BU’s admissions games are reasonable and honest to applicants. . Some colleges place inordinate value on “pubic Ivy” stats. Adding those scores would lower Binghamton’s rank on US NEW rating. And of course it isn’t the mean that is the concern. It is the 25%-75% spread. And that would change appreciably.

If Binghamton published the scores for the Advantage program that might discredit the idea that including the scores would lower the overall scores and reduce the perception of the school as competitive. But they don’t. And I suspect they don’t include scores from an appreciable number of students beyond those in the Advantage program. They probably don’t include scores from international students and from EOP students. And they don’t for a reason. My understanding is that Bob Morse from USNEWS has confirmed that they don’t include all their scores. The question is why. It is a public university so the data should be public.

Why would you guess that Advantage scores are only 100 points lower. If the scores were not appreciably lower the students would have been accepted to the university as full fledged members. If you add the EOP and Advantage students together, you now have over 10% of the entering class. And no matter what games BU plays with numbers, they can’t have it both ways-Advantage students were either accepted or they were rejected. If accepted they count, live in the dorms and interact with other students. If rejected they don’t.

Adding those scores would shift the entire (25-57%) range downward.

In 2013, the school reported 25.2% CR scores were 500-600 and 5% were 400-500. If the Advantage scores were split between those categories, and that is optimistic, you now have 10% 400-500 and 30% at 500-600. But that isn’t all. You had 14.6% at 700-800 and 54.6% at 600-700. When you added to the bottom, you now have a smaller percentage of scores at the top. So your 75% is going to be a lower figure too. Instead of 583-675 (mean ot 625) you are probably at 550-610. (I’ll bet they are a good deal lower than that when all are included). That would pull them down from the ranking and compares unfavorably to other schools they are now ranked above.

If adding these scores did not pull BU scores and rankings down significantly, the school would be transparent about the scores. They go a long way to keep the scores from counting. There is a reason they are willing to risk criticism like this. Don’t forget that there are international students who have submitted SAT and ACT scores and those scores are probably even lower and probably not included. So when Binghamton lists that 95% submitted the SAT scores they are not being entirely honest. The SAT data does not include data from 95% of the students who consider themselves to be 1st year students at Binghamton. That is deceptive. Regardless, this is just math not a conspiracy. It is common sense.

4

"Why would you guess that Advantage scores are only 100 points lower?’

Because it only makes sense that Binghamton is going to offer this program to the strongest applicants that it doesn’t accept. I scrolled through last year’s threads about the program and found a student with a 1320/1870 SAT score but an 88 GPA and another who was offered the Advantage program and had also been accepted to Fordham and Buffalo. My guess is that most students offered the Advantage program are like these two students-good SAT’s but lower GPA or vice versa (or just a bit below accepted students stats). I think it’s presumptuous to assume that the Advantage students are below the 25% on all three sections of the SAT’s. Why would you think that Binghamton would need to offer this program to students whose qualifications are not even close to admitted students? Also, I would think that EOP students are included in a school’s reported SAT numbers as they are first-time, first-year students.

“Advantage students were either accepted or they were rejected. If accepted they count, live in the dorms and interact with other students. If rejected they don’t.”

The Binghamton Advantage students were rejected but are offered a path to transfer to the school. I’d guess the program has expanded as new dorm space has come on-line and supply exceeds demand. Hence, my earlier comment about the school perhaps overestimating the appeal that the new dorms would have with juniors and seniors who typically move off-campus (just a guess). In my opinion, the expansion of the program is driven by economics, rather than an underhanded way to misrepresent the quality of the student body as you believe.

5

Those that enroll in the Advantage program are not the strongest students that Binghamton did not accept.

It is interesting to consider the many factors this Advantage program impacts. Are those in the program counted as having been rejected from BU in their tallies. If so, that is another way Binghamton U is far less competitive than it appears. Sure we’ll reject you, count you as a reject in our tallies, and then invite you to stay at and pay for our dorms, hang out with Binghamton students, graduate with them but we won’t count your scores.

Nearly 80% of those accepted (to actually attend classes at BU) turn Binghamton down. How many do you think decline the Advantage program? Adcons know that there is a sweet spot, a level of credentials below those that would allow student to gain admission at a competitor, that increases the liklihood they will come to Binghamton. And those scores have to be pretty low. Most applicants who apply to 4 year schools and are told they can attend a community college instead will decline that invitation unless their other options are pretty poor. So which students are left with options that are pretty poor? It is clearly not driven by finances since cost for Advantage stduents are just about the same as cost of the other 4 year SUNYs.

6

And don’t forget that those on this site are going to be the cream of the crop. So credentials for those who post are going to overestimate those of the general population, probably by alot.

7

" It is clearly not driven by finances since cost for Advantage students are just about the same as cost of the other 4 year SUNYs"

My point was that the program is driven by the school’s economics (need to fill the new dorm space), not the students’ finances.

“And those scores have to be pretty low.”

There’s a self-selection aspect to applying to college and students with scores as low as you’ve suggested generally don’t bother applying to Binghamton without special circumstances that might give them a chance of getting accepted. Scrolling back through last year’s posts, I also found a student with a 3.2 GPA, 6 AP’s and a 28 ACT and another student with a 26 ACT and a 92 average who were offered Binghamton Advantage. At least one of these students was enthusiastic about the program.

Again, I personally don’t like the program, but that’s not the point. I’ve responded to your posts because I disagree with your general description of Binghamton in all of your posts as average public school with a mid-range, unintellectual student body, headed by a corrupt administration who successfully dupes tens of thousands of students each year into believing that they are applying to one of the best public universities in the country, as Binghamton’s inclusion on various lists of top public schools would lead them to believe. I’ll be sure to ask them about this when I take my kid to Accepted Students Day next weekend!

8

dcalb1, that is quite the description of Binghamton. Yours not mine. My point is actually the oposite of what you are portraying. Binghamton’s PR has never been content with what it is and has tried to inflate it. There is nothing wrong with being a medium sized public institution that primarily serves graduates of NY public schools, many of whom would otherwise not be able to attend college. That was precisely what it was designed to do. It was designed to NOT compete with the Northeast private colleges. Instead of trying to portray it as something it is not, why not be proud of the things it does do? And why not be straight forward about the admissions numbers.

My beef with this school is its longstanding lack of transparency. Playing games with numbers and hiding facts results in an inaccurate perception, a special skill of this school. Students should have complete and accurate information. It is a public school and it needs to keep things public. Its long history of hiding information and dishonesty does not serve it or students well. A change of administration does not seem to have changed that any.

I doubt that the Advantage program is filled with many students with a 26 (roughly equal to an SAT of 1190). If it were, they’d make that information public. I don’t think many people think that Binghamton is “one of the best universities in the country”. Those who do should spend some time at the flagship universities. They are a world apart from Binghamton. Binghamton is a solid university but it is not Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, Gainesville, and on.

The common app allows students to check one more school to add it to their list. That hardly qualifies as “self selection”. What is self selection is the information you find on CC, with the strongest applicants frequenting this site. I suppose that the data about the students enrolled in the Advantage program should be easy enough to get. It is a public university. They are obligated to provide information if asked for it. Hopefully those considering the school will ask the school for the data about the Advantage program before committing to it. If it is not given to them, they can alway submit a freedom of information request which should not be necessary.

9

" that is quite the description of Binghamton. Yours not mine"

Hardly. I’ve read enough of your posts, and there’s nothing in the description that you have not stated.

" a medium sized public institution that primarily serves graduates of NY public schools, many of whom would otherwise not be able to attend college."

Seriously, not otherwise be able to attend college? Not sure how to even respond to that one.

"That hardly qualifies as “self selection”.

Self-selection is that students who see a school’s admission standards and realize that they do not have a reasonable chance of being admitted do not even apply. I know many students who applied to SUNY schools but did not apply to Binghamton (or Geneseo for that matter) because they recognize that their grades and SAT/ACT scores are too low. I also know 10 or 12 students who have applied and been admitted to Binghamton this year. They are all very strong students- SAT’s from the 1200’s to the 1400’s, at least top 10-15% of their class. Some have already submitted their deposits to Binghamton, others are weighing financial aid offers from other schools.

“I don’t think many people think that Binghamton is “one of the best universities in the country”. Those who do should spend some time at the flagship universities. They are a world apart from Binghamton. Binghamton is a solid university but it is not Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, Gainesville, and on.”

I noticed that you left out the word “public” in quoting me. You may not think it belongs on lists of top public universities, but it is. As far, as out-of-state “flagships” their student profile is quite similar to Binghamton’s. They may have access to resources that Binghamton and other SUNY’s don’t, but given their out-of-state tuition rates they’re not affordable options for many New York State families.

“I doubt that the Advantage program is filled with many students with a 26 (roughly equal to an SAT of 1190).”

Here’s a link to an article where not only Binghamton officials but the President of Broome CC state otherwise: http://www.bupipedream.com/news/9061/binghamton-advantage/. Do you have any evidence that what they state is false?

Incidentally, it’s not only Binghamton who is offering deferred admission/ guaranteed transfer admission. Here’s a link to a NY Times article that interestingly quotes a Geneseo official discussing the beneficial effects of Geneseo’s delayed admissions policy on the school’s student profile: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/11/education/11accept.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&ref=education.

10

Lostaccount, dcalb1’s portrayal of your description of Binghamton is accurate. His words, but accurate succinct summary of your writings on Binghamton.

And in case there is any confusion with what portrayal I am referring to (which there tends to be with you) it is the March 22, 515pm posting on this thread, starting

“Again, I personally don’t like the program, but that’s not the point. I’ve responded to your posts because I disagree with your general description of Binghamton in all of your posts as average public school with a mid-range, unintellectual student body, headed by a corrupt administration who successfully dupes tens of thousands of students each year into believing that they are applying to one of the best public universities in the country…”

Incidentally, some of your comments in your last post reinforce that.

11

Nisky1 and dcalb1, well we disagree on many points. Those coming to this thread to get only positive information and one perspective may be dissappointed to see my posts. Those wanting asmuch information as possible to make an informed decision may like seeing my posts.

Suggesting students at flagships are similar to Binghamton students misses the point. When I suggest you spend time at MichiganI am not suggesting you interview students. I’m talking about what the school offers to the students, the resources available to students. I am talking about innovative top notch academic buildings and labs available for classes not just individual researchers. I am talking about top rated college towns. There is a reason those other schools attract students from NY and other states while the SUNY system does not. Each flagship is not superior to Binghamton on every dimension. In general, Binghamton does not compare favorably on most dimensions compared to most flagships This is something SUNY has discussed for a long time, not my idea! SUNY is less expensive for OOS and for instate than most of the flagships. That is a definite advantage. But it is disingenuous to say that places like MIchigan don’t offer an experience that is not matched by Binghamton.

Right dcalb1, the economics favor Binghamton. Binghamton was designed to provide an education to students who otherwise could not afford college. You may not like that but it is not a controversal statement. You can argue that things have changed since the SUNY system was developed but don’t suggest that cost of private schools was not the rationale for the system.

Quotes about student credentials don’t pass as data. What are the scores?

12

Now we’re back to comparing Binghamton to the flagships of other states? Probably why Binghamton is not included on the most selective lists of the best public universities, but on a second list of top public universities as can be seen here:

http://collegeapps.about.com/od/collegerankings/tp/top_public.htm
http://collegeapps.about.com/od/collegerankings/tp/good-public-universities.htm

However, you started this thread to suggest that Binghamton is using the Advantage program to hide a much weaker student profile than they report, with Binghamton Advantage students much less qualified than admitted students, with half or more having SAT scores below 500 on each test, and that Binghamton is unique is having a guaranteed transfer program that you label as “deceptive”.

Links to articles that I have included on posts above indicate that Binghamton Advantage is part of the SUNY Chancellor’s “SUNY Advantage” program and that guaranteed transfer admission programs (as well as deferred admission programs) are not unique to Binghamton. What is unusual is the ability of these students to live in the dorms, most likely as a result of overcapacity with the opening of the new dorms. You dismiss without a shred of evidence statements from Binghamton and Broome officials that students in the Advantage program have stats just below admitted students and that students who posted that they were offered and in some cases accepted entry in the Binghamton Advantage last year are unrepresentative of Advantage students as a whole. If you’re wrong, I’ve seen nothing to indicate that you aren’t, that’s very insulting to those students in the program.

Do Binghamton’s stats benefit from the Advantage program? Only if these students would have otherwise been admitted to the university and then not to the degree that you suggested. The NY Times article that I provided a link to in the post above, indicates that deferred admission/guaranteed transfer admission has become a common practice, and whether the intention is to lift a school’s stats or not, that is often the effect. I see no evidence to single out Binghamton for criticism in that regard.

Surfing on my laptop to find information about the Binghamton Advantage program gave me something to do while my bracket was getting busted on TV yesterday. You clearly have an agenda when it comes to Binghamton. It was interesting to see past threads you have started highlighting what you perceive as crises and cover-ups at Binghamton. Faults of the university are magnified and presented as unique to the school. Unless you have some specific information about the Advantage program to support your claim that the Advantage program is being used by the school to hide the less competitive qualifications of the student body, I’m done posting to this thread. Hopefully, I’ve provided some balance to readers. I’d hate to think that a student or his/her parents are making a decision as to whether to apply or to attend Binghamton based on the picture of the school that you consistently paint in your posts.

13

dcalb1 my posts reflect my opinion. Your posts reflect your opinion. Our opinions differ. The topics covered in my last few posts are responses to other posts. The point is that schools should be transparent about their stats. I 'm not the first to suggest that they are not transparent. They ought to be providing students with the SAT and ACT scores for all students who submitted them who will be living on their campus in the fall. If they don’t want to combine them, they can be posted seperately. Binghamton has promoted itself as being an elite institution and as having a stronger student body then certain other schools. If they did not promote their school that way, I would not respond this way. If you strutt around saying you are a Public Ivy, lets see all the scores. Scores should be clearly labled so the reader knows exactly what they are. When the school publishes a range of scores from 25%-75% they don’t indicate that they have not included scrores submittted by Advantage students, EOP students, International students and probably others. This isn’t conspiracy theory, I believe this was confirmed by Bob Morse (NY Times).

14

Last post (I swear):

EOP and international students are included in a school’s freshman profile. Here’s the exact language from section C of the Common Data Set:

  "Freshman Profile:  Provide percentages for ALL enrolled, degree-seeking, full-time and part-time, first-time, first-year (freshman) students enrolled in Fall 2014, including students who began studies during summer, international students/nonresident aliens, and students admitted under special arrangements."

Notice that students who take advantage of a school’s offer of deferred admission in the spring are excluded, as are transfer students, who are profiled in section D of a school’s Common Data Set. Binghamton Advantage students who do ultimately enroll in Binghamton are transfer students. Again, Binghamton is not unique in this regard.

Opinions have validity when they can be presented as logical arguments supported by facts.

15

lostaccount, it appears that you had some kind of negative experience with Bing that influences your posts. No way should scores from a small number of students who live in the dorms at Bing but don’t attend class there be included in their 25-75 range. And your theory about international and EOP students has been debunked.

I know of several friends of my daughter who were admitted for spring semester last year. I also know students who were admitted to many other colleges for spring semester. So what? That’s called enrollment management. They know that a certain number of freshmen won’t come back in January and they fill the beds in dorms and seats in class that way.

What’s your beef?

For what it’s worth, I graduated from Bing (Harpur College) when dinosaurs roamed the earth. My daughter was admitted to Harpur but decided to go to RIT when she got enough need-based and merit aid from RIT to make the net price difference within $3k/year. She’s very happy and doing very well at RIT, but I have no doubt that she would have been fine at Binghamton too. My only regret is that she’s almost twice as far from home in Brooklyn at RIT.

16

This is a school that has had trouble with being honest for quite some time about all kinds of things. Do you think potential students and parents have a right to honest straight forward information? Historically Binghamton has needed some help with honesty. How many students do you think were paying far more tuition then they were obligated to pay when Binghamton wtihheld the fact that they were eligable for in-state tuition? Took a law suit! A law suit to get this school to be honest!

17

I’m with Nisky1 and dcalb1 on this one.

Lostaccount, I’ve been following the Binghamton forums for quite a while now and the entire time you have continually used just about any topic you can to attempt to take potshots at the university. This one might take the cake.

Yes, this program guarantees admission (if certain criteria are met) to its participants all of whom were otherwise rejected by Binghamton. I’m sure your are right that they are not counted towards the freshmen class statistics because they are actually transfer students. But there is no doubt your math is shaky and then you try to justify your conclusion by making assertions such “Those that enroll in the Advantage program are not the strongest students that Binghamton did not accept” and “don’t forget that those on this site are going to be the cream of the crop” which have no substance behind them. As usual, you were over the top in your reaction, taking things out of perspective, making mountains out of molehills again with no basis.

Besides the dorming aspect of this program, this is really no different than what Cornell does with their Guaranteed Transfer program, Penn State does with their 2+2 program, Univ of Michigan with their 2+2 program, Univ of Wisconsin guaranteed transfer program, and many, many other colleges. If the Binghamton program gets you riled up, the Penn State one really should - from their website: “We call it the 2+2 plan and it’s the most common path to a Penn State degree—about 60 percent of our students begin their Penn State experience at a Commonwealth campus”! Just think about it - 60 percent of the graduates are not included in the freshmen stats!!! OMG!! What are they hiding??? How deceitful!!!

“What are the scores?” - Seriously, why do you really care? Students have been transferring into Binghamton Univ from BCC in substantial numbers for decades without this stuff being reported. In my opinion even the scores of incoming freshman are almost useless except for understanding ones likelihood of being admitted to the school. Even the US News only weighs it at 8% in its ranking system. I suspect the only reason you really care is to either use it as another factoid to use to take potshot at the university or to be able to say they are “hiding information”.

By the way, did you know that some of the colleges at Cornell don’t even require you to submit your SAT scores at all to transfer in!! You believe that? What’s Cornell trying to hide???

The real issue we have with your posts is your general tone that suggests that you feel it is your responsibility to remind everyone of Binghamton University’s place in the world of universities. Statements such as “If you strutt around saying you are a Public Ivy, lets see all the scores” just highlights what I think your real beef is – you are ticked off that the university is highly thought of and respected in spite of what you think about it. Maybe you are a grad of a “real ivy” who is offended an upstart is using the “ivy” term, or a disgruntled school employee who is looking to pay the school back for some perceived slight…whatever. You arrogantly act that the rest of us have been hoodwinked by the amazing PR the school puts out and are incapable of forming our own opinions of the school based on dealing with students, alumni, faculty and employees there over the years.

Years ago I learned that there is no use to arguing with your type on the internet and I’ll probably regret doing so again. This type of exchange is probably exactly what you were looking for to entertain yourself.

To the rest of the folks, please make your college choices based on discussions with family, friends, teachers, guidance counselors, alumni etc and not on the ramblings of various internet posters, myself included. CC is fine way get information on schools, programs, scholarships and facilities but make sure to take anyone’s opinion here with a huge grain of salt – it’s way too important a decision to do otherwise.

18

The lawsuit - yes I remember that in the news.
An unintended loophole in a state law changed in 2002 allowed students who reside in other states but graduate from NY state high schools to get in state tuition. As it was an unintended loophole, the SUNY Central policy was never updated to reflect that so SUNY Binghamton’s policy was never updated. Years after graduation, a couple of alum found out about the loophole and sued. For good measure they claimed the school deceived them because someone manning the booth at a recruiting fair told them they were not eligible as did someone answering a university email advice hotline.

Mountains out of molehills…

19

Well bear, we agree. Students should make informed decisions based on complete and truthful information. No I’m not a offended “real Ivy” or paying anyone back or anything close. I do like to encourage truth though. Accurate and complete information will help students make informed decisions. This site is not intended merely as PR for schools. PR is available at each school’s web site.

The difference between some of the school programs you mention and Binghamton is that Binghamton has students living in its dorms Fall of their freshman year. There are also problems with some of the other programs too. Binghamton isn’t the only school with some problematic policies.

20

http://www.wsj.com/articles/remedial-courses-in-college-stir-questions-over-cost-effectiveness-1416243572
Post from last year" 12-12-2014 at 2:55 am
Hey guys, I’m currently in the Binghamton Advantage Program, and to be honest, if you’re interested in an Engineering path, don’t do this to yourself. I can’t speak for the other majors in BAP, but the differences in engineering courses between BCC and BU are incredible. For example, BU students work on Arduino projects and reverse engineering home appliances freshman year while BAP students draw 3 dimensional boxes and play with K’Nex. The only other insight is that I have is don’t go CS either. I have some close friends in the program with me who are CS majors and all they tell me is that they hate CS now due to the courses they’re taking. I found out that as an EE major I’m taking a more rigorous computer programming course than they are.

Academics aside, the difference between BAP students and regular BU students is non-existent. I think that the only examples of differences between us is that A) we take classes at BCC, they don’t B) we take a bus to classes, they don’t and C) when people ask you what school you’re in (Watson, Harpur, Decker, etc…), you have to explain that you’re in BAP. And that’s really it to be honest. I have a lot of regular BU friends, BAP friends, and even townie friends who I wouldn’t have met else wise.

And one last difference that I just remembered about BAP students and regular BU students is that for some reason a lot of BAP students pledge Greek life compared to BU students. I know one frat who has more BAP students than regular BU students in their pledge class. I still don’t understand this, but whatever, not my cup of tea.

Please don’t let my post scare you from BAP, do your homework and check out all your options, talk to friends and most importantly talk to current BAP students.

Good luck deciding!