Advice After Speaking to a Cornell Admissions Officer...

Colleges and Universities A-Z Cornell University
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<p>Agreed. The transfer rate should be lower (by a significant amount too), but it’s actually higher. That makes no sense. 1 year of community college should by no means cover for 4 years of high school.</p>

<p>Also, the rates for CAS and Engineering are good enough (around 9-10% combined)…it’s some of the contract colleges that have rates of 30-45% that really shock me. A school like Cornell should NOT be accepting nearly half of its applicants, not to mention the majority of them are from CC’s and not peer institutions.</p>

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<p>But, we don’t know the transfers’ 4 years of hs data or their scores- at least, I don’t think we do. We don’t know why those kids sent off for a year at another school (contingent admissions) fell into that category. Conceivably, some porportion were kids who made it to the final admissions decisions rounds. All we know is the minimums the U sets for GT. </p>

<p>I suspect the 22% transfer admit rate is a corner Cornell is backed into- they had 36,000+ freshman apps, a relatively lower yield and only 3184 transfer apps (for 2014.) If they really need 5-600 transfers, what’s a college to do? Frankly, filling empty seats is about keeping programs in place, filling classes, keeping dorms full- all sorts of considerations, large and small. Cornell could raise the freshman admit rate, hope the yield holds- and look even less selective. Then, could they fit all those kids into living spaces and intro classes?
[Cornell</a> Administrators Dispute New York Times Transfer Article | The Cornell Daily Sun](<a href=“http://www.cornellsun.com/section/news/content/2011/05/05/cornell-administrators-dispute-new-york-times-transfer-article]Cornell”>Cornell Administrators Dispute New York Times Transfer Article | The Cornell Daily Sun)</p>

<p>This is really about what Cornell thinks it needs and how to navigate through a challenge. I suspect they’ve got institutional research to support their decisions.</p>

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<p>We don’t have the HS data on transfers. When we don’t have the best level of evidence, we look at the next level of evidence. If you look at the chance threads for potential transfers to Cornell, some of their stats are so embarrassingly low that they don’t even list their high school SAT scores (since Cornell doesn’t require you to send them, which I think is a mistake). It’s very clear a lot of these transfers are from CC and a lot of these transfers didn’t have spectacular HS records. Very few are transferring from undergrads with competitive admissions.</p>

<p>Cornell already has a problem with overpopulation. There are issues with classes being full and juniors/seniors and transfers having trouble finding on campus housing. I fail to see why they need hundreds of transfers at all. It’s certainly not just to fill in vacant spots. </p>

<p>And my last critique: if you are going to have the GT program, for the love of God, please make these students get halfway decent GPA’s at halfway decent colleges. The only stipulation is a 3.0 from any college (including community colleges) in order to retain your GT. Ridiculous. 3.5 from a 4-year college should be the bare minimum requirements.</p>

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<p>Admissions can only be made as close to perfect as possible, but never perfect. There are all these indicators of who can do what, but regardless of all those it’s almost impossible to get every qualified applicant into the school. There are going to be all sorts of opinions on this and for all I know, none of them may be fully valid since all different types of folks are commenting. This analysis is just too subjective.</p>

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<p>Norcalguy - those GT transfers have been vetted out during RD already, using the same barometers for freshman admission, the only reason they were not offered a spot was due to lack of space. Presumably they would be just as qualified as other admitted students. If that’s the case, why would it matter where they go the first year while they are waiting for their admission. How would you propose Cornell come up with a list of schools which would be acceptable for those GTs to go to the first year? By USNews ranking(I never get the name right)? Would you say U.Fl biology course wouldn’t be just as good as Cornell’s? What if schools GTs got accepted to weren’t on Cornell’s list of acceptable schools. I think it would be a nightmare for Cornell to administer in such a way. For goodness sakes, we are talking about few hundred kids out of 3000, I am sure even their subpar ability didn’t cramp your high level learning ability while at Cornell.</p>

<p>I would like to know what’s percentage of freshmen at Cornell got above 3.0 GPA. By your standard, they should all have their admission rescinded. I would also bet that most of those students GPA go up after the first year. </p>

<p>I don’t think adcom at Cornell or any college are really that clueless.</p>

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<p>I’d call “the next level” of evidence: figures or summaries from peer institutions- if any have published this. Just for reference, schools with the highest transfer admit rates [Transfer</a> Acceptance Rates at US News Top 50 2009 & 2008 – The Transfer Book](<a href=“http://thetransferbook.com/stats/transfer-acceptance-rates/]Transfer”>Transfer Acceptance Rates at US News Top 50 - Transferweb) Though it’s a secondary source, it compares %.</p>

<p>I agree you and others have noticed a problem. But, anecdotes can’t, by themselves, define. (Forgive me, but have you ever looked at some of the forums where non-professionals quote anecdotes to diagnose an ailment?) Likewise, what shows up on chance me threads can’t be taken as representative, though I agree, it’s painful to see. </p>

<p>We can’t ignore that the contingent admit kids could be high performers, who somehow just don’t make the final cut. I do agree the bar should be higher than 3.0. And, I do agree Cornell is a great school.</p>

<p>ps. Cornell’s not alone in this GT issue.</p>

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<p>Interesting thread. If I have anyone come up to me because I am a transfer student, they will be sorry to approach me. I believe that it’s not appropriate to call most people that are transfers “inferior.” You do not personally know the transfer or why adcoms accepted them. If applicants were accepted to Cornell, it’s for a reason. In fact, the first graduate of Cornell was a transfer. The data on college confidential may not even be accurate for one. Secondly, why ridicule incoming community college transfers? Not everyone is fortunate to afford an education in this type of economy so I’m sick of people ranting about transfers be not intelligent enough. I never took my SAT, so I’m automatically going to be judged for it? I find it funny. I hope the population at Cornell is not like this. I do not want to be stuck with ignorant and judgmental people. Truth is, you don’t know everyone and what goes on in their lives so I would stop assuming, because you may be dead wrong. If transfers are so “inferior” how come my professors would rate me top 1% in their class, not just pre-med classes but electives too. This is coming from one of my professors that used to teach at Princeton and has poor ratings on rate my professor because of how difficult he is, but still managed to get almost a 100% in his class. So, I’m stunned to see the personalities that exist at Cornell so far. Like I said, hopefully the majority of the population isn’t like this. I can see how one may say a “3.0” is not competitive enough, but not ALL transfers are “stupid” like you think. Not sure if I’m the only transfer to comment on this thread, but I think that someone should step up the plate. Everyone has their own point of view, but seriously open up your minds a little bit. Closed minded people do not seem as intelligent in my perspective. And I’m not talking about academics since obviously you’re all at Cornell, but having the ability to reason properly. Your viewpoint is not always the “right” way. I’m not claiming mine is either, but one must take into account a divergent amount of viewpoints.</p>

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<p>I think this thread has largely run its course. My opinion is that Cornell’s transfer system is too lenient. Until Cornell releases data on how its transfers perform after entering Cornell, we will never know definitively if transfers are cut out for the job. While there are certainly many excellent transfers (and I am not advocating for Cornell to not take any transfers at all), I have unfortunately seen many transfers struggle with the transition.</p>

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<p>To address the guaranteed transfer issue, I know that for ILR at least, they would rather NOT have GT’s and instead offer those students admission as freshmen-the university overlords (so to speak) restrict the ILR freshman class size, forcing them to accept high numbers of transfers in order to have the graduating class that they want. It goes back to the issue of higher acceptance rate vs higher transfer acceptance rate. Cornell, given that its the largest Ivy League school, will necessarily have a higher acceptance rate than Harvard. Would you rather that these students be accepted as freshmen or as transfers, that were vetted for freshmen admission, then go the extra length of proving their aptitude at a college?</p>

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<p>I’ll insert my own piece into the transfer business…I’m an AEM student, but I was actually one of the few 110 or so people that got accepted as a freshman last year. AEM is notorious for taking a lot of transfers, and as such, the graduating class swells to about 200. I’ll add some more stuff to this: some people transfer to AEM because they feel it would fit their future interests more. These people aren’t necessarily struggling with their present majors, but they want to switch. Now, I’ll shift to a different group of folks. These folks are struggling in something they want to pursue (let’s say…becoming a doctor), and then have a change of heart when they see their grades. Now of course, AEM has a bit of a reputation for having easier courses (not fully valid), and one could theoretically run away with high a GPA assuming they have the “right” schedules. They may be able to get certain jobs in the business world, but does that mean they were academically strong? Certainly not. They still have the distinction of graduating from Cornell, though.</p>

<p>*So, I’m stunned to see the personalities that exist at Cornell so far. Like I said, hopefully the majority of the population isn’t like this. I can see how one may say a “3.0” is not competitive enough, but not ALL transfers are “stupid” like you think. Not sure if I’m the only transfer to comment on this thread, but I think that someone should step up the plate. Everyone has their own point of view, but seriously open up your minds a little bit. Closed minded people do not seem as intelligent in my perspective. And I’m not talking about academics since obviously you’re all at Cornell, but having the ability to reason properly. Your viewpoint is not always the “right” way. I’m not claiming mine is either, but one must take into account a divergent amount of viewpoints. *</p>

<p>Welcome to America. Unfortunately, this phenomenon isn’t just at Cornell, either. Be careful whom you associate with. :|</p>

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<p>I’m not really sure why we have to admit them at all. With a class size of 3000, Cornell is already one of the bigger elite schools. Moreover, we’re spread pretty thin in terms of resources. Our class sizes are already fairly big. Our housing is already limited. While registering for classes isn’t as big of a problem as at Berkeley, some of our courses are already 100% booked. It seems to me that Cornell is a school that would accommodate 2500-3000 students pretty well. So, why do we have to take so many transfers?</p>

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<p>Maybe it’s time to direct questions to the school.
Eg, why do you need to add students? Can’t you just take the full cohort as freshman, squeeze 'em in somewhere, let 'em take intro and distrib classes from out in the hall (or remote, on their laptops?) If X drop out or temporarily leave, why wouldn’t you just run on the lower final number? After all, it would lessen competition for upper level classes. Tell 'em you think 5-600 is too many and ask why they don’t just take transfers from, say, Syr or Tufts? </p>

<p>Maybe they can also explain why the diff between ^“acceptance rate” and “number accepted.” </p>

<p>You don’t like transfers. Cornell does. Let them explain it.</p>

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<p>ILR is one of the smallest schools at cornell. Is a graduating class of 250-300 REALLY too large?</p>

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<p>My sentiments exactly. Cornell’s already so full that they had to make forced triples (put 3 beds in a double), not to mention they haven’t used the waitlist in the past 3 years.</p>

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<p>It seems like the heads don’t really care. Someone asked a similar question on “Dear Uncle Ezra” this past semester and he gave an unsatisfactory answer. You guys should check it out. It’s Question 3, Feb. 2011 (the 2nd one on the page)</p>

<p>[Dear</a> Uncle Ezra - Search - Cornell University](<a href=“http://ezra.cornell.edu/searched.php?search=transfers&question=&answer=&starttimestamp=0&endtimestamp=0&category_id=0&offset=0&view=expanded]Dear”>http://ezra.cornell.edu/searched.php?search=transfers&question=&answer=&starttimestamp=0&endtimestamp=0&category_id=0&offset=0&view=expanded)</p>

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<p>Tripling up in the dorms? Tough to get certain classes. Wow, this brings me back. It seems that Cornell had exactly the same ‘problems’ when I attended back in the mid '70s (ouch, that makes me feel old).</p>

<p>A thought – although there is no set freshman curriculum. The freshman introductory classes are amongst the largest in the university (raise your hand if you took Psych 101 in Bailey hall). Freshmen all live in the dorms, that’s another restriction. Assuming that Cornell wants to keep most classes manageable there is a limit on the size the freshman class can be.</p>

<p>As a practical matter, the the junior and senior classes can be somewhat larger than the freshman class (people rely on off campus housing more), there are fewer prerequisites that people NEED to take in order to graduate on time, etc. Yes, people do get closed out of classes – and occasionally classes they need to graduate, but this is relatively rare. Many of the higher level classes don’t fill up.</p>

<p>So, let’s assume that Cornell views its mission as educating as many QUALIFIED students as possible given the size of the facility and the quality of education they want to provide.</p>

<p>“I would found an institution where any person can find instruction in any study.” </p>

<p>In this case, tripling up dorms for first semester, large intro courses, and taking upper class transfers makes perfect sense. This, of course, is just a guess.</p>

<p>In any event, I am prepared to accept the proposition that Cornell’s administration knows somewhat more about how to run an elite university than I do. They have been successful at what they do for some time. The complaints raised here are really old news, I suspect that Cornell won’t change and I also suspect that it shouldn’t change.</p>

<p>PS – I thought Uncle Ezra’s answer made perfect sense and was wholly satisfactory. This is they way Cornell operates and it doesn’t intend to change.</p>

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<p>Cornell estimates 800-900 student study abroad each year. And, a growing number of kids gradute early. They address the burden and need for transfers- [Surge</a> in Early Graduation Rates Forces Cornell to Make Adjustments | The Cornell Daily Sun](<a href=“http://cornellsun.com/section/news/content/2011/02/01/surge-early-graduation-rates-forces-cornell-make-adjustments]Surge”>http://cornellsun.com/section/news/content/2011/02/01/surge-early-graduation-rates-forces-cornell-make-adjustments)</p>

<p>Think about it. A university is a machine, with many needs and forces driving it. It’s far more complex than some doubles becoming triples or some struggling transfer kid you know.</p>

<p>^ I also thought Ezra’s answer made sense. It’s a beginning, in a short answer venue. One has to step back from “I think” or “I don’t like” and consider the answers suggested. Some would call that"critical thinking."</p>

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<p>The problem here is that the transfer admissions process is way more lax than it should be, at least compared to freshmen admissions. This is a big problem, both to the university and to the general student body. This process is unfair because 1) freshmen admits were held in much higher standards, 2) These transfers get to skip many of weeder/GPA-deflating courses, 3) They deteriorate the school’s and student body’s reputation. </p>

<p>Last month, I attended my friend’s birthday party in Chicago. There were some kids that asked me what I do, and I replied that I recently gradudated from college and am about to head off to law school. They asked me where I went to college, and I replied 'I went to Cornell." One of the kids gave me some kind of sinister look, and replied, “Dude my cousin transferred to Cornell from $hit community college. She didn’t even take SAT’s. She barely graduated from high school. Did you trasnfer from community college, too?” I said ‘No’. He then asked me where I am going to law school. I replied “Columbia Law School”. Then he said, “Damn, dude.”</p>

<p>I think that the big part of the problem with Cornell is its image/perception among some sector of populatoin. Cornell’s gotta step up its game, or it will be held to an inferior perception, one that it doesn’t deserve.</p>

<p>My brother, when I enrolled at Cornell, used to make fun of me for going to Cornell. In his view, Cornell was the ■■■■■■■ child of the Ivy League since it admitted many who didn’t stand a chance at other Ivies. Now, I would argue that the freshmen admits are as strong as any others, yet, the rather large quantity of unqualified transfers really do the student body a great disservice. </p>

<p>Being an alum, I don’t really care too much about Cornell’s repuation/ perception. I am an adult now, I am going to law school, I’ve got tons of work to be done in the future, I’ve got a very nice girl friend, I’ve got much better things to worry about. Yet, I am bringing up this issue out of my opinion that the admissions process is 1) largely lottery and arbitrary at freshmen admissions, 2) way too lax with transfer admissions, 3) Thus, it is an unfair process.</p>

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<p>I’ve met a couple of transfers who confesed that they scored below 1800 on SAT’s. When I asked them how they managed to get into Cornell, they said they didn’t even have to send SAT’s. I am sure the SAT data for transfers is missing - largely because of the fact that many transfer applicants don’t have to send their scores. There are guys with near perfect scores getting rejected at freshmen admissions, and there are those community college types who transfer without even sending their scores? You would think there is something terribly wrong with this system.</p>

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<p>If Cornell needs to bring in so many transfers to fill in the voids left by study abroads and early graduations, then fine. Transfers serve to fulfill a financial need. But, let’s not pretend like these marginal transfers were admitted for their academic acumen or their extracurricular prowess. Again, we’re not talking about all transfers. We’re talking about those with suspect academic records coming from community colleges. I think it’s a sad statement about Cornell that these students need to be brought in solely so we can extract their tuition dollars.</p>

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<p>Arguably, Cornell may be the only Ivy or a school of its caliber that takes on this many transfers. Transfers can’t be as competitive as freshmen admits as a whole. Many attempt to transfer since they aren’t happy with their current schools, and I suspect many of transfers hail from community colleges or second-tier state schools.</p>

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<p>I don’t get this. Financial Aid is available to transfers as well. It is not like Cornell is collecting fresh supply of big bucks via transfer routes.</p>