<p>Heavens, payingfor3tuitions, I wasn't EVEN replying to your comments about Oberlin! Of course it is a wonderful, enriching place for non-conservatory undergrads! My comment was merely for clarification about what is and what is not available to LAC vs. conservatory students there. Now I remember why I quit posting on this site over a year ago.</p>
<p>I'm sorry to have offended you, but your information about Oberlin simply wasn't accurate, for example: private music lessons reserved for Conservatory students. You implied the Oberlin website wasn't forthcoming about "crossover" and that rankled me a lot because I felt it made them sound dishonest. The OP is considering many schools at once. Sorry if I was over-the-top however, and didn't mean to be nasty and scare you off. Really sorry about that part.</p>
<p>Considering Swat's acceptance rate is about 18% and Haverford's is about 24%, I don't know how one can be a "reach for anyone" while the other a "safety". Wasn't there some Newsweek ranking out that listed both SC and HC somewhere between #15-20 in selectivity out of all colleges and universities? Parsing out minute differences in colleges seems to be a popular activity here on CC, but I think it can be very misleading...</p>
<p>HC Alum, the relative "safety" part comes in when specifics about an applicant "match" specifics about some school needs/wants. It is, in no way, to "parse" out small differences in % admittance rates. E.g., for an in-state applicant with UW GPA 4.0, SAT equivalent 2300, multiple APs, U of Michigan becomes a "safety". For an out-of-state applicant with GPA 3.9, SAT 2150, no APs, U of M is a clear reach.</p>
<p>The issue, I think, for non-conservatory Oberlin students is access to faculty as private teachers and to parts in Conservatory groups or plays. At non-conservatory LACs, the very good/excellent performers from high school can still participate in the top level groups fairly easily. My D's voice teacher this year (non-credit major lessons) was a member of the faculty (she's at an Ivy). At Oberlin, her teacher would have been a student...possibly a very good student....but possibly not a very good teacher. If an applicant is looking for faculty level involvement in a LAC setting, they should specifically ask about this at the school they wish to apply to. On the flip side, their may be faculty in the area at a LAC, but there may not be a "critical mass" of students to assure a high performance level that a non-music/theater/performance/whatever major may desire. My D was in love with one particular top 25 LAC, until, at the end of the tour, she discovered that there had only been one vocal performance concentrated major in the previous 3 years. This also might not be an issue if the LAC has access to excellent non-faculty private lesson teachers. A colleague of mine's son, who graduated U Penn as an English major, took his private lessons from a cellist at a conservatory in Philadelphia. </p>
<p>If the OP wants top level performance/learning opportunities as a non-music major, I encourage her to explore what's available at each of the schools at which she plans to apply to know what is available and what is not. If this is not an issue for her, the point is moot.</p>
<p>Vive La Difference!</p>
<p>No need to quarrel...</p>
<p>I am fully aware that perspective on these schools is relative to personal experiences and preferences. I believe that hearing from a variety of perspectives is helpful in viewing a college as a whole.</p>
<p>Hearing someone gush about what a specific school has to offer is both enlightening and encouraging whether or not it is specifically pertinent to D's situation.</p>
<p>Perhaps I should clarify her arts background and intent...</p>
<p>D is not a musical or vocal “superstar.” She has slightly more than a modicum of talent in this arena. She sings a little, acts a bit, and plays the flute. These pursuits feed her soul, and are, more or less, second nature because of her upbringing. She comes from a musically and artistically inclined family—many professional artists and musicians. My father was an opera singer and D's father a professional musician...once upon a time played with SF opera. She loves and appreciates all kinds of music but is more of a dabbler than anything else. Currently, her iPod is mostly loaded with showtunes. Our proximity to NYC enables her to indulge her passion for the arts. (Many, many trips to the theater and subscriptions to all manner of dramatic, musical and dance companies, as well as museums and galleries. Also, the opportunity to participate in professional level workshops.) She would very much like to participate in theater to the extent that she is able in college. She is an enthusiastic audience member and would miss the enrichment these programs provide if they were not available.</p>
<p>D spent six summers in intensive, prestigious arts program concentrating in dance and theater. D had more luck with dramatic roles (playing Juliet) than with Musical Theater (more likely to be cast as the Baroness rather than Maria or even Liesl.) The dance, however, was her true calling, artistically speaking. Spending 20+ hours/wk(year round) mastering technique and performance for many years and earning several regional and a few national prizes. Audience members, complete strangers, who saw her perform often remarked on how they enjoyed her dancing, her beauty, her grace; and competition judges often remarked as to how they were mesmerized by her from the moment she stepped on stage. As a dancer, her technique is well above average, but she has a luminous quality that elevates her performance even further. D originally wanted to attend a ballet conservatory, as her ballet mistress was from the Kirov, but alas, her physicality betrayed her--by the age of 12 she had far exceeded the limit of the mandated height restriction of 5'6''. No conservatory would touch her. She was crushed--her dream decimated. That was a difficult moment in time, and her first real disappointment, but she came through it. Participating in dance at this level instills a focus, determination, and work ethic that is matchless. She never wanted to quit. She continued to dance (and to work just as hard) but realized that she needed to envision a different future. (Luckily, a few years later, she found a new calling—though not an artistic one—the abolition of the death penalty.)</p>
<p>Nothing makes D happier than dance. D wants to dance in college. She will not major in dance, but wants to be able to continue with ballet technique, as well as to enjoy other forms of dance. She would like to find a performance group that she can join. D has also been teaching dance classes at a local studio for several years specializing in tap dance for the under 10 set and also gives private remedial lessons. She has been recognized for her unique approach to tap dance and has developed her own style, which is a Broadway/ballet hybrid. She has also worked with functionally autistic girls developing her own form of dance therapy. She wants to continue to work with children, as well.</p>
<p>Access to the Arts is equal in importance to academics for D.
A superior Arts program gives any school added value.
Immersion in the Arts is what bolsters her academic performance.
I hope that clarifies her situation.</p>
<p>Thanks again to all who testified...<br>
Surprisingly enough, D did manage to make a few adjustments to list. She is grateful to all, as well.</p>
<p>From Post 1 She's a very serious, focused, straight-laced type of person/student--doesn't want a huge party scene. She does want a politically active campus and a thriving arts community. She's an accomplished dancer and interested in theater. She's a vegetarian, does meditation/yoga, and is not religious. She's personally very conservative in her conduct--no drinking, smoking, drugs, or indiscriminate hooking-up--doesn't even use vulgar language--ever--I'm serious--not deluded--promise.</p>
<p>With the exception of the dance and theater parts this could have been a description of my D. My D is getting ready to begin her 2nd year at Swarthmore she is very and I mean very happy with and at Swarthmore. My wife and I are also very pleased with Swarthmore; I can not tell you a single thing about the school that has disappointed me in any way. My D complains about the food being too instuitional, boring and bland. Having said that every meal offers a vegetarian alternative.</p>
<p>From post 26 Re: Amherst She has 2 profs she wants to meet but was worried that they wouldn't be accommodating.</p>
<p>I am almost sure they will be accommodating .</p>
<p>Swarthmore and Haverford are not safety schools for anyone no matter what the persons qualifications are ..</p>
<p>When I toured schools with my D I fell in love with Bryn Mawr a very good school and better academically than some seem to think be sure to look at it along with Swarthmore and Haverford .</p>
<p>From Post 47 ..She is not at all your typical Law School type, I can promise you. She wants to pursue Law in order to take up the cases of death row inmates .. I view D is an intellectual. She has more fun with books than she's ever managed to have at a party, and existentialism makes her squeal with delight. She doesn't look like a nerd, but she most certainly is one and she's at peace with that </p>
<p>This is a perfect personality fit for Swarthmore ..go on to the Swarthmore CC and read some or better still a lot of the entries from interesteddad ..</p>
<p>From what I have read I feel sure your D will be very conferable with the Swarthmore community. She should take the train over and spend some time on the campus, I am sure she will love it and that the Swarthmore community will love her ..</p>
<p>If money is an issue Swarthmore in need blind admissions and 100% need met if she gets in the school will see that she can afford to go .</p>
<p>Desire to keep dancing may be an influence in narrowing your list.</p>
<p>This was very important to my D2, and she cut down her list almost too short as a result. Good academic colleges differ quite a bit in their dance offerings.</p>
<p>D2 will be heading to Barnard in a few weeks.</p>
<p>D1 is at Oberlin, and IMO the description of the music situation there is perfectly captured in post #60. D1 is in the college, has had private lessons on her instrument from a Con student who she said is the best teacher she ever had. The teacher was not just someone off the street, she is more accomplished than probably any of D1s prior local teachers and had prior experience teaching her instument. A number of these students are going to be populating the country's orchestras later on; I think D1 is lucky to able to get lessons from them at this point. D1 has friends in the Con, and also some dual majors. the con pervades and enriches the campus there in a way that is not typical of any school I attended, at least.</p>
<p>One of D1s rommates was into theater; she said that performance opportunities at Oberlin were outstanding. D2s assessment of the dance offerings is that they were on the stronger side of typical of college offerings, light or non-existent in ballet (don't recall), and this level was simply not sufficient for her. Like most schools she considered.</p>
<p>To determine relative strengths in particular areas of interest (e.g. psychology), suggest check out Rugg's Recommendations on the Colleges, and also comments on particular strong programs in Fiske's, IIRC. Beyond this, you can look in detail at catalogs, count the courses actually being given each semester in areas of interest, # profs in the relevant departments, etc.</p>
<p>tommybill: Yes, Thank you. </p>
<p>Swattie is held in high esteem by D. </p>
<p>FYI: Some Amherst parents gave encouraging advice (privately.) </p>
<p>She also likes Bryn Mawr. They now accept a charitable contribution in lieu of an app fee--how cool is that? More schools should encourage that practice. Washington Monthly (one of our favorite progressive publications) ranked them #1 among LAC's last year largely based on promoting the philosophy of giving back. A better ranking system than USN&WR's for my D.</p>
<p>Some will probably find these controversial but here are some links to check out anyway:</p>
<p>Williams is likely going to be too "jock-oriented" for D's tastes. Some may quibble with that blanket assessment, but the bottom line is that small schools that are athletic powerhouses on the Division III level - like Williams and Middlebury - don't attain that status without having a significant population of outstanding athletes amongst their 2,000 or so students. Northwestern, F&M and Dickinson also seem like the "odd ducks" her list, in my opinion. </p>
<p>I know this doesn't help in cutting down the list, but if you are going to apply to or visit Grinnell, it would make sense to look at Carleton and Macalester as well, since the three appeal to similar types and share many common applicants.</p>
<p>Post 70...She also likes Bryn Mawr..."</p>
<p>My D had a very hard time choosing between Swarthmore and Bryn Mawr....I kept my mouth shut (very hard to do) in the end she chose Swarthmore...suggest your D look both of them …my D's financial aid offer was very good from both schools… </p>
<p>I can't help with the dance part for either school I just don't know....Oberlin has a great music school and I think (but know) their dance is also highly regarded…..she will like the people there just as she will like them at Swarthmore and Bryn Mawr</p>
<p>BTW, lest I leave a wrong impression: by mentioning dance at one college I didn't mean to imply that it was a particular weakness there. Very few of the colleges named on this thread met D2's standards for dance programs. Your kid's priorities, and assessment, may be different.</p>
<p>I'm late to this party, but will add a few thoughts:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Virtual niece is a Law etc. major at Amherst, also a complete teetotaller, non-jock, non-partier. She could not be happier and could not love it more. She values a feeling of intimacy and cocoon-like atmosphere highly, though.</p></li>
<li><p>Nothing you said made me think Chicago would not be a great fit, except for the dance part. My impression is that dance at Chicago is not well developed. My daughter (who is there) was a serious dancer in HS, and another even more serious dancer from her dance school is also a classmate there, but neither of them dance at college. (She has tutored elementary school kids, though.) There's lots of theater and music, and of course the city of Chicago has great dance (another former dance-schoolmate of theirs is a principal with the Joffrey now). My son will also be going to Chicago and has been a tap dancer for years; the opportunities in the city (but not the university) are part of what drew him there.</p></li>
<li><p>Haverford is very small, and doesn't have a whole lot of acceptance letters to hand out. I concur with others who say that it is not a safety for anyone. Just too quirky to be predictable that way.</p></li>
<li><p>Yes, it's hard to imagine a kid who keeps Bard, Chicago, and Columbia on her final list. Bard and Columbia are a hundred miles and a couple of galaxies apart. If you want to narrow things down, I would start by looking at why they are all still on the list, and what she really cares about.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Not sure why you say that, JHS. Quirky, left-wingy, intellectual for its own sake, kids who want to make some change in the world, these seem to be true of Bard from what I've heard, and I know true of many students at Columbia.</p>
<p>(I remember my quirky left-wingy Wes D rolling her eyes when she heard little bro might apply to an Ivy, till she heard it was Columbia, whose students she'd met she'd always felt more at home with than those at other Ivy-type places.)</p>
<p>garland, I hope D2 finds some of these Columbia students when she's across the street starting this year. The students she's met to this point have been quite different than this- much more like those other "ivy-type places" people you described. Posts on the CC Columbia board can also perhaps be interpreted as being a somewhat revealing read. But she will have a larger, and presumably more representative, sample going forward.</p>
<p>My quirky left-wingy daughter is very happy at one of other those Ivy-type places. In fact, many of her friends are active in just those type of organizations. In a larger institution, it's generally not difficult to find your own.</p>
<p>I hope so, monydad. And I'd be fairly bewildered if you or her judged a school by the posts on a CC Board.</p>
<p>My S has always liked the students he's met from "across the street."</p>
<p>garland, your message is a valuable reminder not to generalize so much from the kids that I know. My impression of Columbia is very different from yours: a place characterized by love of NYC, certainly, which can bring with it a certain artiness, but also by ambition, achievement-orientation, preprofessionalism, and an attraction to the core curriculum.</p>
<p>It's not that I really believe Columbia and Bard are in different universes. My daughter applied to both Columbia and Oberlin, and Bard is only one step beyond Oberlin in that direction. But she didn't really mean her Oberlin application -- it was sort of an insurance policy in case she panicked and wanted to be someone completely else in April.</p>
<p>Has Pomona been mentioned as an option?</p>
<p>Your explanation of your D's involvement in dance reminds me of one of my good friends who, though looking like she belongs in a J. Crew catalogue, is happiest in the classroom. It's funny that the this friend is the ONLY person in my high school who actually intimidated me intellectually. Both of her parents are U of C grads, and she inherited the U of C personality, but she felt that there were not enough opportunities to pursue dance. After being rejected ED by the school across the street from Barnard, she applied ED II to Pomona and has found the right place for her.</p>
<p>Pomona sounds like it could be ideal for your D. While all of the students I know at Pomona are scary smart, and while Pomona consistently outperforms Ivies in grad school placement (both in pre-professional and PhD programs), its students are very much engaged with what's going on around them. D can also use the other Claremont schools to take classes and socialize... there are about 5,000 Claremont kids in all, and between the laid-backness of Pitzer, the intensity of Mudd, and the "Barnard of California" Scripps, and the directed Claremont McKenna, your D is bound to find people like herself.</p>
<p>Maybe this is time for D to make a list of what is most and least important to her.</p>