<p>JHS--the NYC thing skews it, but I think, because of the Core, Columbia is not as far from Chicago as might be imagined. Yes, the pre-professionals are there, but they're only one part of a big community. My S thought he could be happy at Columbia or Wes, (or Mich). He was looking for life of mind type worlds, in a quirky, lefty way, and thought they were represented by all three of them.</p>
<p>The liberal nature of some schools is certainly open to interpretation. I suppose people interpret liberal differently. </p>
<p>Has anyone heard of FIRE? </p>
<p>(here's the link: <a href="http://www.thefire.org/%5B/url%5D">http://www.thefire.org/</a>)</p>
<p>FIRE tracks free speech issues at colleges, and is definitely an interesting and worthwhile read.</p>
<p>I agree that Columbia and Chicago aren't that far apart at all. Many of the kids I know who applied to one also applied to the other (but certainly not all), just as there are many Swarthmore-Chicago pairs, too. I didn't suggest Chicago and Columbia were in different galaxies. I suggested that the galaxy they are in is different from Bard's.</p>
<p>I do, however, think there are really meaningful differences in the character of Columbia vs. Chicago. While not every student I have known at Columbia is or was pre-professionally oriented, all of them describe it as having that overall cast.</p>
<p>Both my kids are LI kids exactly like yours (not partiers! but into the arts.) I've Each are at schools on your list and accepted into others. I PMed you. and I really did develop a good strategy for us LIers.</p>
<p>PS: My daughter called herself a dork in her admissions essay but she looks half-way between Salma Hayek and Penelope Cruz!</p>
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Williams is likely going to be too "jock-oriented" for D's tastes. Some may quibble with that blanket assessment, but the bottom line is that small schools that are athletic powerhouses on the Division III level - like Williams and Middlebury - don't attain that status without having a significant population of outstanding athletes amongst their 2,000 or so students.
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<p>This is only partly accurate. Williams has a high percentage of athletes and sports oriented kids, not necessarily varsity athletes but kids who consider physical activity and fitness an important part of their lives. They tend to spend their off time running, dancing, hiking, skiing, in short, moving. I would certainly put the OP’s daughter in this category: Dance is a highly physically demanding discipline.</p>
<p>The characterization that I would quibble with is “jock oriented.” If a college has 1500-2000 students and 30-35 teams, it’s going to have a large percentage of varsity athletes. This even more true of those on the smaller end of the population scale, like Amherst. Williams for sure has a strong athletic flavor, but that doesn’t in any way detract from its commitment – financial and emotional -- to the arts. It offers outstanding performance opportunities for non-majors. The OP’s daughter would definitely be able to dance, sing, act with the financial support of the administration and the creative support of a good portion of her classmates. </p>
<p>At the end of the day I’d guess that Williams would not offer enough political activism for the OP’s daughter, but in the LAC arena I’d doubt that she could find as many “civilian” opportunities in art, music, dance, theater as she would in Williamstown.</p>
<p>It sounds to me that Chicago, Swarthmore and Amherst would be wonderful matches for her.
One problem is finding dance opportunities at what are primarily academic institutions. My daughter is a serious ballet dancer who has attended SAB. She tried to schedule ballet classes when she visited some of the schools on your list last fall, and was sucessful at doing this twice. The level of instruction, ability of the teachers and quality of the facilities were poor both times. Williams has a huge, new dance studio with a top-flight floor overlooking the Berkshires. The admissions officer there told my daughter she could teach class there, which was flattering, but not what she wanted to hear if she were interested in progressing with her dancing. Of course if her first choice were a dance career, she would be in a company rather than in college at 19.
I've studied at Chicago and work here now. Chicago (the University) is not a "touchy-feely" place. People are of course "nice" but Amherst or Swarthmore would more likely feel supportive and close-knit. From what I hear, Columbia may be like Chicago in this regard. Of course this might not be an important issue to your daughter at all. And one could develop a cohort almost anywhere.
Your daughter is lucky to have such a thoughtful "fan" of a mother.</p>
<p>Has Smith come up in this conversation? I recall that dance was a huge priority to TheDad's daughter and she found a happy home at Smith.</p>
<p>Re: Academics + dance (ballet), perhaps time to trot this out again..</p>
<p>Dance is good at Princeton. The modern program is for credit, unusual amongst the top schools. Performances of the dance program are a big deal. The ballet, less good, and have to pay, but only $5 per class. In addition, Princeton has dance groups -Xpressions, Disiac, and Body Hype, that are as popular and as much a center of the campus life as are the a capella singing groups.</p>
<p>My D was a serious ballet dancer. She went to ABT NYC etc. Her dancing was dampened by injury. However, at Princeton she is dancing again and loving it, as well as doing a psych major/neuroscience major. Her junior year advisor is the head of the Computational Neuroscience, studying memory...</p>
<p><a href="http://compmem.princeton.edu/research.html%5B/url%5D">http://compmem.princeton.edu/research.html</a></p>
<p>How cool is that? However, Princeton is a drinking campus. The social mainstream is more prep than not. There is a large strong social minority in the arts and the alternative life style, one the administration is trying to grow. So for alternative lefty edgy black wearing types - if you are glad to be in the minority, Princeton is great. But if you want to be the mainstream, not the place for you.</p>
<p>Coming in late here ... as a Barnard parent, I think that as between Barnard & Columbia, Barnard seems to be a better fit for your daughter -- so one way to narrow things down is to apply to Barnard only. All classes at Columbia with the exception of the core classes are open to Barnard students -- the course enrollment system is fully integrated, so students just sign up for the courses they want. But from what you say about your daughter's inclinations, I think she's probably choose to take many courses at Barnard over their Columbia equivalent. Barnard's lack of a core may make it easier for your daughter to explore her multiple interests -- in other words, she could take the same courses in the long run, but might have more flexibility to structure things the way she wants at Barnard. </p>
<p>I think the thing that strikes me the most is the statement, "She's looking at schools with profs/advisors that might mentor her based on shared interests." Barnard students are assigned faculty advisors their first year - my daughter's advisor is also a department head -- and the Barnard faculty is very accessible to the students. </p>
<p>--
On another note entirely, my d. also applied to Univ. of Chicago. I agree that it's reputation suggests a very different atmosphere -- to this day I don't know why she applied nor why they accepted her. She's not the Chicago "type", and she pretty much broadcast that with an entertaining but quite flippant application. I don't know what the appeal is... but there is no rule saying that every college on the list has to be identical.</p>
<p>Monydad's link finally mentions Goucher, a school that has EA apps, gives merit money to highly qualified students, is very near a city and has a large population of dancers. This might be a great safety school for your daughter.</p>
<p>I agree with bethievt...Goucher seems like it could be a good safety. It definitely has good dance (I know a girl who had a shot at the very top schools but chose Goucher as her first choice, partially because it was close to home, but also a lot because she liked the dance program). It has a really pretty campus that feels isolated/like a community, yet right outside is an area that is, itself, rather urban (Towson is basically a really small city, and Goucher is close to the center of it, where there's a mall, a small concert venue that brings some pretty neat acts, a movie theater, lots of resultants, etc). It's about ½ an hour drive from Baltimore (you can also take classes at JHU, though that doesn't appear to be extremely common because of scheduling issues). It's one of the "Colleges that Changes Lives." Definitely check it out if she's still looking for safeties.</p>
<p>Great list. While posters have been "helpful" with additional suggestions, stick with whittling down the list you have.</p>
<p>Although it isn't a great idea to consider Mt Holyoke and Bryn Mawr safety schools, your daughter is very likely to be admitted based on the limited info. you've provided about class rank, interests/activities and strong pre-college program (which is assumed for a kid from Long Island in the type of high school you described -- with lots of overachievers. ) </p>
<p>Mount Holyoke has a dance major...so...even though your daughter may not major in it...you can be assured the program is good (there is actually a 5-college dance department....so lots of options and opportunities.) Also, an excellent theater department (it's where Wendy Wasserstein and Suzan Lori Parks went to school...both Pulitizer prize winning playwrites.) Many community service opportunities in Holyoke MA...and no lack of other passionate pre-law students.</p>
<p>Please follow the advice of those on this site suggesting a couple of EA applications. (The list doesn't appear to include any rolling admissions schools) An admission will ease the concern about attending (Hofstra? Adelphi?)..if FA is within your range. Also, if the news is not good from EA, your daughter can apply to more of the schools on her list. If she's admitted to an EA school and happy with it, she can whittle down the list further. </p>
<p>Although you indicated that location didn't make a difference, your daughter may find on her visits that location does make a difference. Attending a school in a location like Williams or Middlebury is very different from University of Chicago.<br>
Also...from everything you've written. your daughter seems like one of those "classic" college applicants who will spend some time on a campus and will clearly see (or not see) herself as a student there.</p>
<p>Another thought, re: Dance: Another dance (modern and ballet) oriented friend (who also sounds liike your D in other ways) of mine really liked the dance program at Middleburry when she visited (sadley, she didn't get in, so she doesn't have first hand experiance with the whole program. She was very pleased with the classes she took, though, and like Monydad's D, she was NOT very happy with the classes at many LACs. She was also very taken with the head of the department). She also liked Bryn Mawr's program enough to make Swarthmore her top choice (since she could take dance at Bryn Mawr). I don't know how much that will translate to your D's experiance of dance at those schools, but this friend was also a very accomplished dancer who loves ballet, so I'd imagine your D might end up agreeing re: the strength of the dance program.</p>
<p>Also, your D might find the dance at Wesleyan a little too modern/post modern oriented for her tastes (the former being in the student-run groups, the latter in the dance department). That said, there are some ballet classes, and I think you can take each class a couple times for credit, and even more just for fun (however, I haven't taken any of the classes at Wes yet, so I don't know how strong they would be, esp. for a very accomplished dancer).</p>
<p>D2 dismissed Middlebury out of hand because it did not offer so much as a single ballet class, and she likes ballet. Maybe she missed something, YMMV, and all that. Some other places were like that as well. If you like modern instead of ballet things might be different. She didn't think Bryn Mawr had enough, and by most accounts Swarthmore is actually not that convenient to Bryn Mawr due to commuting time.</p>
<p>Thank you to all for your perspectives on dance programs, and thank you to monydad for the link!</p>
<p>D has done a fairly thorough job of investigating arts opportunities at the schools on her list. Some schools remain on the list based upon the undeniable strength of their academics, despite the fact that they are somewhat lacking in the area of dance.</p>
<p>She has, in fact, met with all of the admissions directors at the women's colleges on her list. She liked Wellesley enough to want to apply even though there is no formal dance program--only performance groups. (I said drop it. She said no way. What can I say?) Smith's program is excellent but Modern-oriented, but it doesn't matter since it's part of the consortium. Mount Holyoke offers 5 levels of ballet and additionally many advanced classes (by audition--which is a good sign) in various disciplines. The 5 college dance consortium is one of the largest in the US--it boasts something for everyone. Bryn Mawr offers 3 levels of ballet, pointe barre classes, and supports advanced dancers with placement in programs in Philadelphia. Barnard has a fantastic program even though it is modern-centric. As an added bonus, it offers many interesting dance history courses/workshops on everything from Balanchine to Musical Theater. Plus it's in NYC, so she can continue to take the open classes at Steps, BDC, etc., that she has been taking for years.</p>
<p>monydad: you are mostly correct regarding Middlebury. Ballet is offered once in a blue moon when they have a guest teacher. (It has a great modern program though.) Another negative--freshmen cannot audition for the performance company.</p>
<p>Weskid: thanks for your report re: LAC's--we hear you. She noted some ballet, jazz and ethnic dance classes in addition to modern at Wes, but I have no doubt that your take on it is accurate. She did like Wes' overall commitment to the arts, and got very excited when she saw the new student center was named "Usdan." (She attended Usdan Center for the Creative and Performing Arts here on LI for many years, which is a virtual young arts lover's "paradise.")</p>
<p>calmom: thanks for your take on Barnard. Agree. Chicago seems to be one of those schools that gets under a kid's skin. D loves it unconditionally!</p>
<p>bethievt/Weskid: Not sure we want to add, but...Goucher, a CTCL? Ok, will pass it along to her. We perused CTCL book, not certain it has academic programs she requires.</p>
<p>2boysima: thanks, you're right...D doesn't consider any small LAC a safety or a sure bet in this climate even though she is in top stats quartile.
She does have a rolling admissions EA local honors program safety--she detests it! Her stats put her in top 1%. It was the only school I selected for her, and I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that. Merit/aid would make it a free ride. (Didn't post it on the list, because I figured majority of CC'ers wouldn't have anything to offer there.)</p>
<p>Thanks again, you've all been very helpful!</p>
<p>Just a reminder that a safety is not a true safety unless the student would be relatively happy to attend there. If she detests the LI safety, find another one that is just as safe!</p>
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Just a reminder that a safety is not a true safety unless the student would be relatively happy to attend there. If she detests the LI safety, find another one that is just as safe!
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<p>I agree with this. Because while I certainly hope that your D will get into more than her safety, I do know a few people who only got into their safeties. The ones who had safeties they liked are really happy now; the one who had applied only to nearby collages that he had no real interest as safeties in is not. </p>
<p>Also, I think that your D COULD consider some small LACs safeties…admissions are unpredictable, but not THAT unpredictable. If she's at the real top of the applicant pool, it's very likely she will get in, and with major merit aid, which less "top" schools use to woo the top students. That's why I suggested Goucher: I think she's very likely to get in, and it has EA so she'll know early on, and she will probably get merit money, and while it might not be perfect, she'll probably like it better than the honors program she hates. (That's not to say that she should definitely apply to Goucher, maybe it's not the right safety. But a school like that as safety sounds like a better idea than a program she hates).</p>
<p>Did you daughter decide to keep Vassar on her list or take it off?</p>