Advice anyone? Help my D narrow her app list?

Parents Forum
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<p>Alumother: Yes, the safety is the true dilemma. D hates the safety we have now. It's not a state school; it's a local private on LI, but even the honors program isn't up to her academic standard. We chose it because it's most likely a free ride and has a decent psych program. The other schools on her list that are "safeties" are all very expensive, so she has to have a safety that's not just an academic safety, but a financial safety, as well, and we've been hard-pressed to find one. </p>

<p>As far as Grinnell, I don't think Grinnell's a safety anymore. It's very difficult to pinpoint a private LAC that's still considered a safety, with admissions becoming more and more competitive with each year. Some schools will be able to tell by your profile that they're your safety and then reject you, so as a precautionary measure you have to lie and conveniently forget to mention that you're also applying to Amherst and Cornell! "Safeties" that D would like to go to: Bennington and Mt Holyoke, although they're not exactly financial safeties. Oh well. If I were religious, I would pray for a sign, but that seems to be out of the question. Only time will tell.</p>

<p>Thanks for your input.</p>

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<p>padad:</p>

<p>Thank you for your words of encouragement. I have to say all of the Amherst parents on here seem lovely. I'm crossing my fingers.</p>

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<p>I remember reading that U Pittsburgh has a good philosophy program. What about that?</p>

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<p>
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but all of those "naked party" anecdotes threw her a bit!

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<p>Hehe. They do do that to people. Tell her those anecdotes are WAY out of proportion…one naked party happened this year, and while it was well attended (or so I hear), the vast majority of the student body didn't go.</p>

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<p>
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She intends to major in Psych but would like either a double major or minor with Legal Studies or Law & Society type of program. She's also interested in another minor/concentration in Philosophy or Sociology or Journalism depending on the school. She's looking at schools with profs/advisors that might mentor her based on shared interests. Her goal is to become a criminal/appellate attorney (capital cases) and to counsel at-risk youth to help them avoid the juvenile justice system.</p>

<p>She's a very serious, focused, straight-laced type of person/student--doesn't want a huge party scene. She does want a politically active campus and a thriving arts community. She's an accomplished dancer and interested in theater.

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<p>I am a current student at Chicago, and while I am, of course, pleased that your daughter has taken such an interest in the school, I do not think of Chicago as a school for ambitious people, and your daughter sounds to me quite ambitious. At Chicago, student ambition is focused on finishing those 30 pages of Marx and most of us have no idea what we want to do once we finish school. The school is so one-sided academically that other non-nerdy extracurriculars are still lacking. (Our Model UN and Quiz Bowl team are tops, our theater is good, our newspaper excellent considering we don't have anything close to a communications or journalism major, but we still do have a gaping hole in "student activities" part of our campus).</p>

<p>Since your daughter has warmed to the uncommon application and likes whatever promotional material we've thrown at her, perhaps I misjudge her. Feel free to PM me if you or your daughter have any additional questions-- I'd be happy to answer them.</p>

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<p>I know this happened a while ago, but I just have to to say LOL at the person who put Swarthmore and Haverford in the safeties section... I would really question any advice given from that person...</p>

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<p>unalove: </p>

<p>Honestly, D is not a "pre-professional" type. She has known what she has wanted to do for some time, which is to work towards the abolition of the death penalty. She is not at all your typical Law School type, I can promise you. She wants to pursue Law in order to take up the cases of death row inmates. For a while, D simply wanted to be a forensic psychologist in the juvenile justice system while promoting the abolition movement on the side, but she has since come to the conclusion that to fully immerse herself in criminal law would be the most effective path to take. Becoming an attorney would make it financially feasible for her to take on pro bono capital cases while counseling and mentoring at-risk youth. The goal isn't to buy a BMW; the goal is the pursuit of justice. D is passionate, with a keen intellect and moral compass. If this makes her ambitious, then she is ambitious, but I do not think that this is to be looked at as a negative, nor do I understand why it makes her incompatible with a Chicago education.</p>

<p>As far as student activities, I'm surprised to hear about the gaping hole. When we looked at the website, we saw tons of student groups (including an anti-DP group, which we didn't see at many other schools), but I suppose a current student would have a better understanding of the extracurricular climate than a website could convey.</p>

<p>I view D is an intellectual. She has more fun with books than she's ever managed to have at a party, and existentialism makes her squeal with delight. She doesn't look like a nerd, but she most certainly is one and she's at peace with that. When Chicago sent a search letter offering Life of the Mind to its students, she was reading Hannah Arendt's "Life of the Mind"--not for school. Her self-selected summer reading list includes Kafka and Nabokov and Camus and John Rawls' "Theory of Justice." Chicago has an extremely nerdy rep and seems to be just the sort of place where people like D flourish.</p>

<p>D loves Chicago! Reading through the "viewbook" made her want to pursue ten differnet majors there. She finds Chicago is inspiring. I appreciate your input, but I think you may have misjudged her. It's difficult to get a sense of someone by just reading a thread, and if I've presented her in an ambiguous way, the fault is mine. It's okay, no hard feelings.</p>

<p>Thank you for the offer to PM with questions and if we have any, we may just take you up on your offer!</p>

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<p>My eldest 2 attended Amherst and Oberlin. The Amherst kid went off planning to double-major in LJST (you're right, it's not pre-law) and Theater. That morphed into a double major in Theater and Music. If he ever wants to apply to law school still, an Amherst degree with any major will stand him in good stead for that future. Of the LJST professors, one has a grand name and might be too busy, but not the others. Also don't react to the whole LJST faculty based on the grand name. All are worthy.</p>

<p>Your D's interests and Amherst are a perfect fit, so just be like everyone else and put it on the list but don't dwell too much on a place that selective. They don't fill up their class with ED's, either; reserve many for the RD round. Ask admissions for stats on that; they'll be honest. They don't interview because they prefer to spend all the time of AdComs on a careful reading of every essay and application. They look for writer's voice to know the "real you" in the essay; if it fits together with everything else in the app (rec letters, EC's and time distribution, stats) then it's a strong application and has a chance. Straight A's and triple 800's guarantee nothing. It is a humane, intelligent, personal environment. It's an LAC with professors who love to teach undergraduates.</p>

<p>If that's her template, where she thinks she'd thrive, then perhaps she could look at her list based on those criteria. If so, keep Oberlin on her list as a place that treasures intellectual curiosity, focuses exclusively on undergraduates, and respects social justice (incredible history there; see the website). </p>

<p>Some students find it helpful to determine if they want an LAC list only; a big city list only; or a mixture of attributes. </p>

<p>Swarthmore and Oberlin are considered academic peers in many ways, but "some" (not sure who they are) say Swarthmore is more pressure-filled while Oberlin has the ability to kick back and laugh. Oberlin's Conservatory is incredibly enriching to the College students. I'm SO biased having never set foot on Swarthmore's campus, and am also an Oberlin alumnmnmn (H is, too). I recommend stopping in at OBerlin on your way to or from Chicago. </p>

<p>Here's a hint about the women's colleges. My D was very unsure and went to visit Smith early on. After concluding it was the most beautiful campus in the world (uh, oh, that's an old hot thread around here...), she looked up a friend who'd shared some time with her at a Bard College summer writing workshop. The friend gave her this gem, "FIgure out if your circle of close friends in h.s. was single gender or mixed gender. If mixed gender, you might miss the presence of men on campus; if single gender, you won't." </p>

<p>Good luck on your journey! It's great that your D has given herself opportunities by excelling in h.s. This country is full of many great institutions; she will find hers!</p>

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<p>BA, Well you started out with too many names and got even more suggestions. So much for narrowing. :)</p>

<p>My son considered many of the schools on your daughter’s list and recently graduated from Williams, so that’s the one that I know most about. I think that for someone with an interest in pursuing the intellectual side of law who espouses liberal causes, but from a personally conservative vantage point, Williams (like Amherst) would be an excellent choice. </p>

<p>Williams also has a vibrant arts community – wonderful museums and a profoundly good art history department, a widely diverse music scene and a serious commitment to the support of theater and dance. The new performing arts center will take your breath away and there are ample performance opportunities even for non-majors. Creative writing is also very good.</p>

<p>The best way to get a feel for the character of a college is to visit. This isn’t foolproof, but it’s a start and first impressions can be valid. After visiting her list will self-edit, most likely in ways that you (and she) might not have anticipated. I guarantee it.</p>

<p>If she is seriously open to the idea of all women’s schools, then I think Smith and Holyoke could be considered reasonable safeties.</p>

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<p>
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As a Catholic school it censors material that it deems inappropriate. Hard to read lit with so many ...'s because sections are excised. Most people don't know this about BC--Censorship--it's a well guarded secret.

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<p>Very interesting insider information. Could you give an example of a “banned” text. Something like Portrait of an Artist?</p>

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<p>I've been thinking over what I wrote earlier and I've been trying to whittle it further. If your daughter feels at home at Chicago, by all means, I'll be the first to welcome her here, and if she feels right here, she is right here, it's that simple.</p>

<p>What threw me for a loop, though, was that she seemed to have quite detailed career goals in mind. When I said that your daughter was ambitious, I didn't mean to write her off in any way whatsoever or even indicate that she was in it for money (I applaud her ambitions!) but she seems to have such a specific goal for the future, and I don't know how much she wants her undergraduate education to contribute to those highly specific goals. The U. of C. does indeed have ambitious students (as soon as I posted my last comment I started ticking off students I knew who had set career goals in mind from high school, and I decided my initial comment was false). However, these students are putting their ambitions on hold somewhat to pursue a true liberal arts education, useless in every conceivable way. Even if they do want to enter a very specific career path (heck, I want to enter a specific career path), they tend to put their aspirations aside and become tortured academics for four years, and then resume where they left off. This suspension in academia works better for some than it does for others, but most career-ambitious students get their kicks during summer internships (yes, even the Citibank and Goldman Sachs kind), and maybe one or two meaningful positions during the school year.</p>

<p>For more on career aspiration and undergraduate experience, I encourage you to follow the link to Professor Andrew Abbott's speech, "The Aims of Education." (The Aims of Education is an annual address delivered to first-years during orientation week). While Abbott's speech is intendedly controversial, I think it summarizes the U. of C.'s ideal stance on what education should be:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.ditext.com/abbott/abbott_aims.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ditext.com/abbott/abbott_aims.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Maybe there isn't a gaping hole in terms of EC's, it's hard to tell. I always feel like I have enough to do, but I think if you were to put Chicago next to Harvard and Yale in terms of extracurricular offerings, HY would win, hands down. However, it sounds like EC involvement is not the most important think to your daughter, and that HY would not make as good a fit as Chicago for other reasons. </p>

<p>More good news for her is that the University is looking to expand its arts program: <a href="http://artscenter.uchicago.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://artscenter.uchicago.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Its current offerings:
<a href="http://arts.uchicago.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://arts.uchicago.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Has your daughter also considered Swarthmore? It also sounds like a terrific school for somebody like her.</p>

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<p>paying3tuitions: Thank you very much for all of your input; it was some of the most thoughtful and encouraging we've received throughout this whole process. </p>

<p>There seems to be some dispute as to how conservative Amherst is. Could you kindly offer up your/your son's experiences with the political climate? Student body vs. administration? Also, one of the things we really liked about Amherst was its commitment to providing an education to an ethnically and socioeconomically diverse group of students and then supporting them. Their stats are some of the best that we've seen of any of its peer academic institutions; not many schools boast a 96% graduation rate, which says to me that Amherst supports those students who didn't have the same educational advantages as the majority of the population, which I think is really admirable. They can't possibly be this awful, soulless institution that many attempt to make them out to be. I really don't understand what many seem to have against it. Did your S ever express anything negative about it? Obviously, no school is perfect, but D tends to hold Amherst up as this golden institution of higher learning and uses it as a yardstick for evaluating other schools.</p>

<p>Oberlin was a school that D has a gut reaction to -- she liked it right off the bat. We don't know as much about it as some of the other schools on her list and I'm not sure if I want her to go to school that far away from home, but the activist environment definitely appeals to D and there is a legal program available. It's definitely something to consider.</p>

<p>D has only ever had one male friend and finds dating impractical -- a huge waste of time -- so I don't think she'll miss the presence of the opposite sex very much. She says that she may consider marriage in the future, but it's a "long way off," as she likes to put it. Like I said, she's an odd one. ;)</p>

<p>Thanks again for the advice!</p>

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<p>My D's initial list (6 years ago! how time flies) was pretty much the same list. However, once she visited, Amherst and Vassar dropped immediately off the list--"too preppy"--and Bard and Wesleyan moved up. The various schools look very similar on paper but they have very different atmospheres. (My D ended up applying to Lewis and Clark (her safety--EA, admitted with a merit scholarship), Reed (accepted, attended, graduated), Bard (accepted), Swarthmore (rejected), and Wesleyan (waitlisted).) Note that she visited about ten east coast schools (including Haverford, Bryn Mawr, Smith, Holyoke) and some Pacific NW schools (Willamette, Reed, L&C, UPS, some others I can't remember the names of). </p>

<p>I suggest your D think about what she really wants. "Close to a city"? Okay, drop Bard and Williams and keep U Chicago... and so on. It's impossible (IMHO) to visit twenty schools seriously, so an initial cut would help. Are the midwest schools (Oberlin, Grinnell, Chicago, Northwestern...) really appealing to her? What are Rochester and Cornell doing on the list--they aren't LACs, which seem to be the focus of the list?</p>

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<p>momrath:
Re: My Alma Mater</p>

<p>BC is a good school and I wouldn't totally bash it despite its shortcomings. I had some inspirational profs and made solid lasting friendships. I also had a lot of fun.</p>

<p>I was given very little latitude as to where I could apply--My parents limited me to Catholic institutions in the NE corridor. My boyfriend went to Brown and I chose the school closest to his. Very lame--I know. My D was horrified when I told her how I picked my school.</p>

<p>I really wanted to attend Middlebury as a Language major, but was not allowed. </p>

<p>In actuality, BC had more than a decent Romance Language department. My disillusionment came early on as I was reading some French 19th century symbolist poetry (Baudelaire) and noticed many ellipses... The flow of these poems seemed to be disjointed and I couldn't quite figure out what was going on. I approached my prof after class one day to query him and he smiled at me. Evidently, I was the only student who questioned the legitimacy of the texts. He told me off the record that in fact the administration censors many texts and it goes unnoticed. He appreciated my curiosity and outrage and sent me to Harvard to get the "real" texts. I never bought another literary work from the BC bookstore again. </p>

<p>I cannot give you a list of works in English because I never took an English Lit survey course there (AP credit). But, I can tell you that anything the church would consider blasphemous would be expurgated. This includes any references to homosexuality, sexual "perversion," prostitution, abortion, drug use, etc. </p>

<p>If you're a finance major at BC, it's probably not an issue! But for someone who is seriously interested in Literature or the Arts it's not a great choice unless you are ultra-conservative. And, honestly, not that many students or profs at BC are.</p>

<p>Re: Williams
Thanks for your insight; it seems like a really lovely place. D is a bit concerned about the party seen, though--some say that there's not much to do in the winter besides drink. Did your S find this to be true? We'd really like to visit within the next few weeks; we hear there's a superb exhibit of Monet's drawings at the Clark Institute.</p>

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<p>...I believe I meant to type "scene." I think I need to get off of this site and get some sleep!</p>

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D is a bit concerned about the party scene, though--some say that there's not much to do in the winter besides drink. Did your S find this to be true?

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<p>This is a perennial topic of discussion on this board. In a word, no. The “some” who say this are not Williams students or parents. Williams kids are multifaceted, talented and active and find plenty to do. Kids drink, yes, maybe more than at some of the other schools on your daughters list, but I wouldn't consider it a deal-breaker.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t, however, ever say that four years in a remote New England village is a good fit for everyone. The winters are long and it helps to be interested in doing something that involves snow. If your daughter loves Chicago, my bet is she's not going to like Williams. </p>

<p>What may appeal is Williams commitment to the arts which is exceptional among the academically rigorous LACs. I guess you’ll miss the summer theater festival, but be sure to take a tour of the performing arts center. </p>

<p>In addition to the Clark, you should try to see MassMOCA, the contemporary art museum in nearby North Adams and Williams own college art museum. </p>

<p>Among the top LACs Williams is not the most politically active. Having said that, several of my son’s friends have gone into public works and humanitarian fields including the Peace Corps, Teach for America, overseas teaching positions, legal assistantships on class action suits, internships for grass roots political parties, so someone interested in liberal political causes would not be one voice crying in the wilderness.</p>

<p>Your comments on BC are quite interesting. I have a close friend who did both undergrad and law school there and he’s about as liberal as they come – but also a serious Catholic.</p>

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<p>collegekid12, you are correct about Swarthmore, but not Haverford for this young woman. I had a total brain f_rt. Somehow, in my mind, I subtituted SKIDMORE for Swarthmore. Skidmore WOULD be a safety, as would Haverford for this student, knowing a bit more about her as I do now. Swarthmore, is, of course, a reach for anyone.</p>

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<p>BA, if your daughter had a "gut" "love it" reaction to Oberlin, my guess is that she would also have the same reaction to Wesleyan. From our visits, the atmospheres are VERY similar for the undergraduate school, but Oberlin has the added conservatory. What I would say about Oberlin, however, is that there is, in fact, very little crossover from the LAC to the Conservatory, despite what it is advertised on the site. Private lessons, performance opportunities in the Conservatory are pretty much reserved for conservatory students unless the LAC student is a superstar.</p>

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<p>Certainly there are some preppy kids at Amherst, but with over 50% (with the percentage increasing each year) receiving FA, there is so much less of that. Certainly D is not preppy and a FA student, and she has made many types of friends there, does not feel left out, and just loves it! What was a few years ago is changing due to Dr. Marx's initiatives for more diversity.</p>

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<p>Re: Oberlin, "in fact, very little crossover from the LAC to the Conservatory, despite what it is advertised on the site. Private lessons, performance opportunities in the Conservatory are pretty much reserved for conservatory students unless the LAC student is a superstar."</p>

<p>That's not the point at all! I said Oberlin was enriching to LAC students. That means that it's the one college where any liberal arts student can attend concerts and recitals every day of the week for free given by students who will populate the orchestras across the country a few years later, along with faculty recitals open to all. Imagine Julliard on the campus of any other top-50 LAC. Socially, it is ONE institution so you might end up dorming (as I did) with an opera singer (didn't need an alarm that year; she sang-woke me up). Walk down the halls and hear every kind of classical, world music, jazz pouring out of the dorm windows, and students who like more than the usual fare. Meet some of the astonishing "double majors" who take both degrees in 5 years. They'll be in your LAC classes, too; and they are so smart.</p>

<p>If an LAC student wants to take private music lessons, they take them for course credit, as given by a Conservatory student. They can also take some of the Music Department courses, or even become a Music major within the College, which is different than being in the Conservatory. Above poster is correct: Conservatory professors are reserved to teach Conservatory students.</p>

<p>That was what I meant by "enriching to an LAC student." I agree, and it's been explored on this site, that the crossover isn't right for the "A" violinist from a high school who wants to play often in a college orchestra. But many LAC students are just interested in music, not musicians themselves. </p>

<p>I can't begin to tell you how mind-bending it is to know a future professional musician socially at age 18, along with all the other LAC students. </p>

<p>At midnight monthyly on Fridays, any LAC can go study on the pews of Finney Chapel at the "Organ Pump" and hear the organ majors have at it with the pipe organ. Or just bring a blanket and enjoy the study break..or dance to the steel drum band of approximately 25 on the steps of Finney Chapel. Nice evening.</p>

<p>There's the Oberlin College Choir, which only admits college students; if they had to compete with the Conservatory vocally, they couldn't; but the College Choir is a performing, traveling unit all its own. Many LAC's have fine choirs, but Oberlin had to protect admission to its own College Choir given the unique situtation. </p>

<p>Finally, Oberlin Conservatory has started the first college jazz studies program at a Conservatory. And concerts are open to all. </p>

<p>These are enriching and unique experiences. Not to take away from any other college in America, but honestly, none can compare for an LAC with even the slightest curiosity about music. The fact that all this is FREE makes it different than, say, living in Manhattan or some other great city for music. As a college student, that's a significant difference for access to great music.</p>

<p>With Oberlin, you have to get over its geographic isolation (near Cleveland) and realize it is a world-class institution with idealistic founders who popped it into the middle of a cornfield. That's a tough bill to fill, I know.</p>