Advice from a Professional

College Majors Musical Theater Major
21

<p>Oh don't be coy CoachC. :)</p>

<p>Out of curiosity, is there any way to find out for sure how well attended a school’s showcase is? It seems like that would be important to know. It wouldn’t be so good to get excited about a school having one to find out after you get there that hardly any agents show up for it. It seems you can count on a good turnout with the Ivies. How do you find out about the others? Can you depend on what the schools tell you? The students on the UK drama schools forum I’m on are always bringing that up like they know the turnout. It’s funny. They have such an established pecking order that they don’t argue much about what their top tier is. </p>

<p>Sorry if I seem overzealous since I’m not in MT. However, I think talk of rankings gets all out of hand when schools recruit kids and there has to be a reality check somewhere. A friend of mine visited a BFA drama school last fall where the students told him in all seriousness that they were rated #2 behind Juilliard even though they don’t have a showcase and could not name ANY prominent alumni that didn’t go graduate school first. Some of their alumni go to Juilliard's certificate program to finish their training after they get their BFA from that school! What are they teaching them there for four years? I wonder how many kids fell for that. My friend had been looking at them as a quasi safety and dropped them because of it.</p>

<p>Neighborhood Playhouse? They were big back when Sanford Meisner taught there and before the BFA schools started springing up in the mid 1960s. Nothing personal to whoever chose it but who has come out of there lately? I talked to a British student that was asking about the American 2-year schools and I had to point out that AADA is NOT the American equivalent of RADA and that their alumni list that looks impressive at first glance is mostly screen actors that are as old as Methuseleh or now tread the boards of the great stage in the sky!</p>

22

<p>
[quote]
While there are probably twenty or so firmly established, perenially popular, football programs in the country, the truth is, the NFL is populated with scores upon scores of players who are not from those particular schools that get all the TV coverage and hype.

[/quote]
I don’t claim to personally know this because I don’t follow football closely, but just as another note of semi-relevant randomness, I asked my big bro who is a total football geek (we used to fight over the computer because he was on his sports boards all the time) about this and he agrees that players come from a lot of different schools but there are just a few that have players taken in the first round of the NFL draft year after year after year after year and always have multiple players drafted in the rest of the rounds. The players that come from those schools also tend to be better prepared, "adapt to the speed of the pro game quicker," and are usually able to "contribute as rookies” more often than those who came from others. He says this is especially true at the “offensive skill positions and in the defensive secondary” where the players have “more reads.” With some exceptions, the ones from the other schools more often tend to “sit and learn for at least a year before they get much playing time." Could this be because of the players that surrounded them in college and the level of competition they faced week-in week-out? It’s certainly not just the coaching. I’ll offer that you don’t get to “warm the bench” for a year in this league. ;) You’re ready to play or you’re out and “six point lessons” will get you canned - or never hired in the first place. Just thought I’d throw that in though Wally can probably expound on it a lot more since he represents professional athletes for a living. </p>

<p>Big Bro was more than slightly amazed that I wanted to talk football so I got quite a lecture! He also said he’d love to see somebody turn “The Longest Yard” into a musical. LOL It’d certainly make for some interesting choreography! ;)</p>

<p>Oh yeah ... Here's another shout out to CoachC! :D</p>

23

<p>Fishbowl - </p>

<p>Thanks for the shoutout - and for the great football analogy! Being from "the Burgh," I am a huge football fan myself, and my brother worked as a trainer for the Steelers before moving into health care management. During that time, he often made comments similar to yours: part of his job was attending the NFL combine, where prospective draftees come and show their stuff to coaches, and he said that the conditioning and skill level of those from top football programs (such as Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan, Miami, Wisconsin) was CONSISTENTLY good and also COMPARATIVELY better than the majority of players from other schools. However, the conditioning and skill level of players from top D-II and D-III schools (such as Mount Union in Ohio) was also consistently excellent and sometimes compared directly with those from the bigger schools. I don't know how completely this analogy applied to MT programs, but my observation is that the overall idea is very applicable - the level of peer excellence and OVERALL "conditioning" at top MT schools gives grads a consistent edge in competing against other top performers once they get to NYC and also at knowing what that top competition will look like. But of course there are always exceptions - look at Ben Roethlisberger, the Steelers amazing young quarterback, who came from a small and lesser-known college program (Miami of Ohio). One of the most frequent comments made about him is that he possesses a calm and skill beyond his years in most situations on the field...and he developed that without playing in a football hothouse, so to speak.</p>

<p>TheatreJock - any contributions here? :)</p>

24

<p>Reading this suddenly-about-football thread, I keep hearing the song "Pass That Football" from "Wonderful Town." :)</p>

25

<p>Actressfosho - Why the AADA bashing? </p>

<p>For the record, my son just completed his first year at AADA and is very happy there - it is the perfect fit for him and he has had wonderful training.</p>

<p>Regarding their alumni - you would probably also categorize the parents and professionals posting here as being as "old as Methuseleh!" But I think you are a bit misinformed. Granted Danny DeVito and Robert Redford are getting up there in years, but would you categorize Adrien Brody, Paul Rudd and Kim Cattrell as "old?" And yes, while their alumni list includes some screen stars - many have also appeared on Broadway. Check out their website - or better yet, visit AADA yourself.</p>

26

<p>MTMama, just wanted to comment on AADA. I've heard many very positive things about the program there. One very talented Broadway actor, who happens to be a friend, has been in The Producers for a few years now (as well as the movie) is a grad of AADA, as is her husband, who also has Broadway credits. Another very talented grad is Lisa Brescia, who, this fall, will be in her fourth Broadway show. Lastly, an extremely talented young man who was in Rent last year, Jay Wilkison. So, they're not all as "old as Methuseleh", nor are they all screen stars. :)</p>

27

<p>
[quote]
We didn't look at AADA but a friend's son went there and was very disappointed at the quality of the program. Yes, it effectively is a cut system after the first year if you're not invited back. I can tell you from what I hear from friends and family members who are in the business side of theatre in the city, that AADA and AMDA are not very well respected in the theatre community.

[/quote]
Here is a link if you want to see it for yourself. <a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?4/88650%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?4/88650&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Does the advice you always give about schools with cut systems not apply if it is in New York and you know someone that went there? If you are now saying it is good, what is it good in comparision to? Juilliard? Purchase? Tisch? (Oh no! Don’t say that! All bow down to the great invincible and all-perfect Tischie monster!) I never said that ALL the actors on their list are screen actors that are as old as Methuseleh or dead. I said MOST and I stand by it. Look at the list. <a href="http://www.aada.org/html/alumni/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.aada.org/html/alumni/index.html&lt;/a> The reason it is so long because they were founded in 1884 before there was any other acting school in America. This kind of puffery needs to be seen for what it is.</p>

<p>I am glad MTMama's son likes it there and survived the cutdown from 160 to 80 or whatever it is after the first year! </p>

<p>Is someone now going to jump in all hot and bothered and try to tell us that SCAMDA is amazing? Yeah yeah. They have alums on Broadway. Spare us please. As Alwaysamom likes to always remind us, there are people on Broadway that didn't go to school at all. See, this is the problem with this group like was mentioned in the earlier parts of this thread. It is getting too PC for credibility. Kids come here for honest advice and guidance. Not warm fuzzies.</p>

28

<p>I think the football analogy is right on the point. The reason the “professional” used the analogy is his knowledge of my playing “the game” and that two immediate relatives are in the Green Bay Packers hall of fame. Fishbowl did an analysis of the theater company I am affiliated with and was correct that most/many either have an MFA or come from top conservatories which is correct. I don’t know if there are more Julliard drama graduates working any where else cause we have a bunch. Yet there are many actors from random schools from say, The University of Idaho…. You get the point. </p>

<p>From a statistical standpoint I don’t think it is prudent to follow the exception at the expense of the rule. The rule being the better more competitive the training you get the more likely you will be successful.</p>

<p>And, switching analogies to business; The more accomplished and more competitive environment you operate a business the more you have to rise to the occasion. Lots of lame businesses last for decades with no competition. The best most successful businesses thrive (or die quickly) in an environment of other great entrepreneurs. Not convinced read “Titan” (the story of John D Rockefeller) or “Made in America” the story of Sam Walton and many others of how people went from rags to multi-billionaire status and credit strong competition as a key to their success.</p>

29

<p>You're correct that I said that, actressfosho. Imagine that! I've gained some additional knowledge and had the occasion to actually meet some individuals since that comment was made. I hope that you, too, have learned some new things in the past two years. Is it wrong to share what we've learned about programs and their alumni? If so, then there's not much point for anyone to be posting on these forums.</p>

<p>I'm not sure why you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder. I never said that it was amazing. I said that I had heard some good things, and I have, from individuals who attended, thought that they received good training, and who have since been cast in Broadway shows. That's the kind of information which some may find useful, even if you don't. No warm fuzzies here, simply sharing information.</p>

30

<p>I haven't commented on the topic in this thread. However, the tone in post #27 is not fitting, particularly from a student to an elder person, but just overall. Points can be made a different way. I did not read anyone saying AADA is amazing, nor comparing it to a selective BFA program as it is a two year program. I read one person who is connected to the theater world say she had heard some positive things. I heard another parent say her son has been happy with the training he has received there. I read responses that refuted that the only graduates who had been successful were from the dark ages. Examples were given of younger graduates who have made it on Broadway. The posts being reacted to were not a praise or push of AADA but just some contrasting information. I am not that familiar with this school and am not even discussing the topic of the thread right now. It so happens that my D told me tonight that she got a roommate for the next show they are doing at the professional theater she is working at this summer and that she just graduated from AADA (coincidentally) and is cast to go out on a tour after this job. That isn't starring on Broadway but is certainly a decent job right out of a two year program, and even something a student coming out of a BFA program might hope to get initially. Cut programs were not being discussed by the posters that are being responded to in post #27 either. The school wasn't being compared to any other schools. The posts were just responding to comments made about AADA, nothing more nothing less. They were stated respectfully. I think they deserve a respectful response even if one has a strongly different viewpoint. I have no idea why cuts were even brought up. Elite programs like CCM or BOCO have variations of cut systems too. That was not what was being discussed. Nobody is claiming AADA is amazing. I believe AADA came up and some comments were made about it and others were responding to the specific comments, that's all. I think a discussion should be courteous, even if opinions differ.</p>

31

<p>Wow - Actressfosho - sure wish you would stop posting misinformation. AADA had a first year class of 60 students. How did you come up with 180?! </p>

<p>And AADA has many alumni working on Broadway whose names you would not recognize on an alumni list. As has been mentioned many times on this forum, any program will be right for some students and not for others. Just because you don't like AADA, for whatever reason, you do not need to continue to post negative comments about the school. </p>

<p>And AMDA also has many students who are very happy there. We have a friend who just graduated from AMDA and loved it. And many AMDA alumni are also employed on Broadway. </p>

<p>As you have probably figured out by now, there are both AADA and AMDA students and parents who read these message boards and who post here. You might want to be a bit more informed in your postings. That goes for other schools, as well.</p>

32

<p>Alwaysamom - I don’t have a chip on my shoulder. You are the one that said it. Are you telling us that your "friends and family members who are in the business side of theatre in the city" have all changed their minds? Are you telling us you have changed your position on cut schools since you said on the Arizona thread
[quote]
I have always have been against this type of cut program, as are most people that I know in the theatre community.

[/quote]
Soozievt – You and Alwaysamom sure always have each other’s backs! :) Is pointing out contradictions disrespectful or is just because i did it to your bud? Need I remind you that this is a kids forum? There is a Parents forum if you want to be ageist. I brought up the cuts because it is another contradiction from alwaysamom if she is implying it is a program she approves of.</p>

<p>Mtmama – YOU said,
[quote]
AADA accepts 160 first year students - not 16! About half of those 160 are invited back for the second year. The first year students are divided into groups of 16 students for the first semester and they take all classes together. Then for the second semester the groups are mixed up a bit and regrouped based on ability. They are assigned to either morning (9-1:00) classes or afternoon (2-6:00). My son requested morning classes so that he could work in the afternoon.

[/quote]
Here is the link. <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1865723&postcount=18%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1865723&postcount=18&lt;/a> </p>

<p>The search feature on this forum rocks! :)</p>

33

<p>Actressfosho,
I don't have AlwaysAMom's back. I don't care the name of whoever responded to you. I looked at the content of the posts. I cross posted with her in fact and didn't know she was responding to your post as I was writing mine. I didn't read her posts as changing her mind at all on cut programs. I believe she is against cut programs and I happen to feel similarly about most cut programs as well. I ONLY read her to say that those she knew who had attended the program had some positive things to relate. That doesn't mean she would send her kid to this program. Ya know, my D's best friend goes to CCM and I have heard great things about the program. But my own child opted to NOT apply there for a couple of reasons, one of which was the cut program. So, I can say there are lots of plusses about a program while not supporting the cut policy OR thinking the school is a good fit for what my own child wants. AlwaysAMom never said she "approved of the program" or that she "approved of cuts". I read NO contradictions at all. She read what she had heard from those who attended and she also pointed out some grads she knew who had worked on Bdway more recently to contrast with what you had written that they were from the age of Methusula. I saw the thrust of AlwaysAMom's post about AADA as a response to your point that the only successful alums of AADA were from the day of yore. She pointed out a few more recent alums she knew of, that's all. And said they were happy there and has some good things to say. She wasn't saying this school is amazing or that her kid would choose it. </p>

<p>Posting contradictions or your points of view is not disrepectful in itself. The tone of the posts ARE. I believe many parents would think that they are not stated courteously. The actual contradictions you bring up, even the cut one, doesn't even apply to what was posted. I agree with MTMama that one should not bash other programs. There are programs my kid wouldn't be interested in but others might and these programs might be very good. Each person's college criteria is different. I think it helps to hear a balanced view. If these folks want to be informative about what they know about a program that may differ than your viewpoint, I'd want to hear it. I don't like hearing the putting down of programs. I would rather hear someone say they didin't wish to apply because X, Y, and Z about the program didn't appeal to them particularly. </p>

<p>You wrote:
"Need I remind you that this is a kids forum? There is a Parents forum if you want to be ageist."</p>

<p>Let me remind YOU that this is NOT a kids' forum. To the contrary, the MT forum and actually ALl the forums on CC are open to both parents and students. The Parents' Forum is also open to students though the majority who hang out there are parents, myself included. THIS particular forum has students, parents, coaches, college personnel and college counselors on it. If anything, there are almost more adults than kids on it but all are welcomed. But it is SURELY not a kids' forum. Please do not condescendingly remind me who the forum is for. I have been on CC's forums for FOUR years, way longer than you and I actually WORK for College Confidential and so I know a thing or two as to who these forums are for. As a 49 year old parent and educator who has taught both graduate school and undergraduate school, I also know that I expect respect when students talk to adults. Differences of opinions are VERY welcome. It is HOW they are made. Think about it. I'd also review the Terms of Service regarding posting with courtesy. Posts should NOT be about other posters themselves but just about ideas or opinions. I think it ought to get back on topic.</p>

<p>By the way, I have no idea what you mean by a program "she approves of." In my own case, I don't approve or disapprove of any programs. I look for fit of a program to a student and finding a good match. I work with many students and find schools that match their personal criteria, as well as qualifications. I don't have an approved list. There are schools I might recommend for a student that my own kid would never have applied to but I think it may be a good option for that particular student. </p>

<p>I never did comment on the topic of this thread. I'll make one quick point about it though. I believe each student appllying to college should establish a set of criteria/preferences she wants in a school and then find schools that match that criteria (and of course determine their chances for admissions in terms of reach, match, safety). For SOME kids, ONE criteria may be the level of challenge. This is not the same as saying one wants an "elite" school due to prestige. To the contrary, one may want a very selective school because the level of challenge of the work is the right fit for them. Both my kids wanted schools that were selective academically because they would not be content with work that was not challenging for their level. This is sorta like how they preferred to take the hardest classes in HS as these were the right level of challenge for them. PART of this criteria involves the peers in class or at the school. For some students, they find it important to be with others who have skills, talents, and similar motivations. That is part of the learning environment that they crave and flourish best in. So, for some students, it IS important to them that the peer group in the school/program will be of similar level or even higher level so as to challenge them sufficiently. In that respect, certain types of students may be attracted to highly selective top programs/colleges as there is a "fit" in this way. This may mean academically or artistically.</p>

34

<p>Whoops - must have been having a "Methuseleh moment".....This is why you shouldn't cut, paste and quote other's remarks - but instead do your own research! Just talked to my son and got the numbers - AADA had 130 first year students and about 100 were invited back for the second year. Yes - it is a big program and not for everyone, but perfect for some.</p>

35

<p>actressfosho, no, I am NOT telling you that my friends and family members in the biz have all changed their minds. However, I WILL tell you that I've shared with them (and they've since seen these individuals on stage) what I've learned in the past couple of years about AADA grads, just as I have with you. I wasn't implying that even I have changed my mind about the school. I was simply sharing what I HAVE learned since meeting grads and seeing them perform in Broadway shows. It doesn't change the fact that my friend's son who attended, didn't have a good experience there. As I've said before, you're going to find people who are happy and people who are unhappy at every school discussed on CC.</p>

<p>My comment about the alumni was a direct result of your post about the majority of AADA alumni being old screen stars. I knew of some individuals who had been successful on stage and so I commented. Simple as that. It doesn't mean that I think AADA is 'amazing', nor does it mean that I've changed my mind about schools with cut programs. It's not a contradiction at all. Things are not always so black and white as to make one like OR dislike a program in its totality.</p>

36

<p>A few things....</p>

<p>This is fun - I love that my football comments had responses - I wasn't too sure anyone ever read or thought about my opinions.</p>

<p>I'd like to share the enthusiasm that some had expressed for Coach C - we sometimes disagree on minutia - but she has much to offer and is an asset. I further want to point out the valuable contributions - often lending a steadying hand and/or perspective on various issues of Soozievt. There are at least a half dozen or so other contrbutors who often offer such great insight on a consistent basis.</p>

<p>The AMDA and AADA thing. I have so many professional associates at various schools and theatres that I realize listing favorites and/or foibles at various programs could quickly get me in a place I'd rather not be. Having said that - I would like to give a perspective on these two programs. We are all (mostly) aware of the differences between conservatory vs university training programs. Each has it's own appeal, approach, and advantages. The style of training that is best for an individual student depends on that individual. I submit that AADA and AMDA represent a third alternative - they are, essentially "trade schools". This is also a valid approach that has yielded great results for certian individuals. These programs are not degree granting programs and have the very limited scope and follow through that is common in every area of trade school-type training.</p>

<p>My point with the football (which i obviously love) is that you can get the goods you need to be a successful professional from many programs. Yes, of course, there is an "elite eight" or whatever. And these schools have had much success in placing a (still small) percentage of their graduates as long term theatre professional. I still say there are about 30 excellent programs that give you everything you need to succeed - the success ultimately depends on the student.</p>

<p>I love the idea of "The Longest Yard" as a musical!</p>

<p>I think Michigan's list is very, very good. I am not too excited about either #8 or #16 and I would add:
- How rich is the cultural enviroment that the school finds itself in - are there LORT or LOA theatres that students may benefit from? Are there honest working relationships with these theatres that would allow valable internships/ working experiences? Or is the University the best (or only) show in town?
- I like number 12 as well - but it does imply that the MT department does not control it's own resources for the teaching of acting, dance, and voice - which is often the case - but still, a parameter to look at (with shared reasources or not) that the training is there so one might emerge as a triple threat commodity.
- to #6 I'd add How many full-time faculty are dedicated specifically to MT? How many of those are tenured? (this gives a clear indication as to the stability of a program and how committed the school is to supporting a MT program).</p>

<p>Finally, I find that the MT major area on this often gets mixed up with other majors - primarily Acting, Dance, Vocal Performance - is this because those majors do not have their own space? It is fine except when the convesation gets muddled - for example, Northwestern has an impecable acting degree (definetly "Top-Tier") but is at another , slightly diminished level for MT; Purchase is a Top-Tier school for Modern Dance - but is not a serious consideration for a top flight musical theatre school.</p>

<p>Finally again (I lied with the last "finally") to students and their parents:
Do your research, visit the schools, talk to faculty and students - and see some performances at schools that have made your short list....find your fit,</p>

37

<p>mtdog, if I might add one more thing to your excellent advice:</p>

<p>Have a backup plan. It might involve extra applications and auditions at schools that don't hold the same allure for you. Or it might be to take a gap year if you don't get into your first choice schools. But because of the realities of the audition process, keep in the back of your mind that no matter how great you are, you might not get into any of the schools for which you audition.</p>

38

<p>MtDog71 just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your masterful football analogy. You have a gift for utilizing detail.</p>

39

<p>Soozie said,

[quote]
I don't have AlwaysAMom's back.

[/quote]
You two have given that impression LOTS of times. I had four people contract me off list about it just from this post. You two are known as the “Tisch Mafia Moms” whether you think it is unfounded or not. I was also told to turn off my PMs and email because of the way you are thought to operate.
[quote]
Posting contradictions or your points of view is not disrepectful in itself. The tone of the posts ARE.

[/quote]
Then why did you not say anything to alwaysamom about her tone when she got antagonistic with wallyworld on the rankings thread and then tried to pick a fight about everything he said for days afterwards? I read her reply as having a saccharin tone like MANY of her other posts and replied with sarcasm. Read the College Life forum if you want to see REAL disrespect and personal attacks. I have said nothing out of the ordinary for CC as a whole.
[quote]
I have been on CC's forums for FOUR years, way longer than you and I actually WORK for College Confidential and so I know a thing or two as to who these forums are for ... etc etc etc ...

[/quote]
Am I supposed to be intimidated by that? I don’t think I have violated any forum rules. You have talked endlessly about your D but have never been onstage nor taken an acting, music nor dance class in your life as far as I can tell. I was sarcastic but I have backed up everything I said and will not submit to your ageism. I would tell my own mom the same thing.</p>

<p>Mtmama said,
[quote]
This is why you shouldn't cut, paste and quote other's remarks - but instead do your own research!

[/quote]
You should be able to read things from people who go to these schools and expect them to be accurate. They SHOULD be brought up so they can be corrected if they are not right because kids search out posts about schools they are looking at. What else could a forum like this be good for?</p>

<p>Alwaysamom said,
[quote]
It doesn't mean that I think AADA is 'amazing', nor does it mean that I've changed my mind about schools with cut programs. It's not a contradiction at all. Things are not always so black and white as to make one like OR dislike a program in its totality.

[/quote]
It reads like a contradiction to me and the off list comments I got suggest others feel the same. I did NOT say you said AADA was amazing. I challenged someone from AMDA to pipe in about what you said about THEM in the quote. Have you heard new things about them as well? </p>

<p>Now back on topic, wallyworld said,
[quote]
The more accomplished and more competitive environment you operate a business the more you have to rise to the occasion. Lots of lame businesses last for decades with no competition. The best most successful businesses thrive (or die quickly) in an environment of other great entrepreneurs. Not convinced read “Titan” (the story of John D Rockefeller) or “Made in America” the story of Sam Walton and many others of how people went from rags to multi-billionaire status and credit strong competition as a key to their success.

[/quote]
So it is the same in business as well! Acting, MT, academia, athletics, business. To what else does this much resisted fact pertain?</p>

<p>Mtdog said,
[quote]
Northwestern has an impecable acting degree (definetly "Top-Tier") but is at another , slightly diminished level for MT; Purchase is a Top-Tier school for Modern Dance - but is not a serious consideration for a top flight musical theatre school.

[/quote]
Look at all the MT Tony nominees from Northwestern. 6 for musicals and 2 for plays. However, some could be "Methusehlean" and I have heard they have slipped some in recent years. What I have been told is the acting program is more of a place you follow with grad school unless you want to do film. Purchase is one of the top tier drama conservatories as well with an admissions rate only slightly higher than Juilliard’s. CoachC also mentioned NC School of the Arts. They are a top tier drama conservatory and do not have an MT major but they have lots of alumni working in MT. Also, there is a music forum but there is only a thread for acting and design where you can't talk about muliple things at once. Questions get passed over there all the time. There is nothing for dance that I have seen. No offense to you but what are your qualifications in all this?</p>

40

<p>
[quote]
Then why did you not say anything to alwaysamom about her tone when she got antagonistic with wallyworld on the rankings thread and then tried to pick a fight about everything he said for days afterwards?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is true and unprovoked antagonism at that. It looked like an effort just to escalate an argument which is why I did not bite. I have better things to do than help ratchet up the lame-o-meter which seems to be humming along fine by itself.</p>