Advice Please: Narrowing Colleges

Parents Forum
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<p>This discussion of SAT scores is off the topic that the OP asked about (since her D doesn't even have SAT scores yet!), but I would like to add that my D's situation is very similar to that of Calmom's D. Her SAT score of 1380 (with an SAT 2 Writing score of above 700) is comparable to the ACT score of Calmom's daughter, and she is thriving at Swarthmore. Like Calmom's daughter, math and science are neither her greatest strength nor her academic interest, and her test scores reflect that. Scoring "1500+" on her SAT was not a realistic goal for her (unlike her older brother), but she prepared and practiced and raised her Verbal plus Math total score by 120 points from the first time she took the SAT. Obviously, Swarthmore considered the total picture when they admitted her, and did not just fixate on her relatively low Math score.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I believe that certain cutoff SAT scores are required to qualify for merit scholarships at some colleges. If this is a consideration, the student will just have to find those scholarships for which her scores are high enough or look for other scholarships that are awarded on a more holistic basis.</p>

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<p>Our family was in a similar situation when our youngest was in his sophomore year - no strong preferences and no keen interests in any particular area of study. Then came late spring of his junior year (too late for spring break tours) , it seemed to have come out of nowhere - a list of 6 or 7 specific criteria for his college choice. Based on that list, we came up with a list of colleges to visit in the post-junior-year summer during our family "vacation" and narrowed the choices down to 7 for fall application. Now we are scheduling admitted students overnights for the final decision. My son still doesn't have a 'must-go' college. None of the colleges fit all the criteria; each have at least one strong suit and one drawback. He is going to be logical and set up a grid to evaluate all the acceptances and then decide. (Spoken like an engineering major whose back up majors are physics and math.)</p>

<p>Perhaps your daughter will be like my son and come up with a well-thought out plan for college selection in a year. As parent, you can simply keep a master plan of test dates and such.</p>

<p>She sounds like a well-rounded, well-adjusted students and will do well anywhere. Good luck with her college search.</p>

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<p>I did mean it. 1500+ scores put a student in an amazing financial ballpark. From t he OP's description--a voracious student who is cruising through advanced courses in high school, I made this assumption: her daughter might possibly have the potential to get a top score. I wanted to let the OP know that those tippy top scores are worth striving for. </p>

<p>If 1500 didn't make such a difference in the merit money, I wouldn't have said anything. If the OP described her D as a slow reader, I wouldn't have said anything. </p>

<p>I did not know that there were invisible cutoff lines when S1 applied. Had I known that his application would have benefitted from a 1450+ score--I would have made him take it more than once. Crazy me. I thought scores inthe 94th percentile were fantastic! LOL. Bear in mind, he ended up at a great school and is thrilled to be sitting in grad courses as a junior. </p>

<p>For S2, knowing that he scored in those top ranges from the time he was in primary school, I gave him a target. Score 1450+ or take it again buster. Other than not wanting to take it again, he didn't feel the least bit pressurized. He whinged about having to review vocab flash cards and math problems for two weeks, but that was the extent of his big preparation. He was very casual about the whole thing--ran out of that 4 hour ordeal and on to the soccer pitch--no worries.</p>

<p>I believe that bright kids can substantially raise their scores by prepping--especially memorizing vocab words. That's my own personal theory. Feel free to ignore it.</p>

<p>Oh, and IMO it would be worth it if the OP's D prepped for the PSAT becuase the NMF status is also a huge factor in merit awards.</p>

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<p>I agree that bright kids can raise their verbal scores by memorizing vocabulary words - that is what my son did to raise his verbal score to a very high level.</p>

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<p>"Oh, and IMO it would be worth it if the OP's D prepped for the PSAT becuase the NMF status is also a huge factor in merit awards."
Can't agree with this enough! Son did well in first PSAT taken in sophomore yr, but there was room for improvement in the verbal score, so he had a few hours of tutoring in the summer, and voilla'- when he took the PSAT for real, he qualified for NMF and 1/2 tuition at USC.</p>

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<p>im going to go ahead and disagree with marian; the decision has nothing to do with your decision. its all on her, and as a sophomore she fortunately has much time to contemplate and narrow down.</p>

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<p>Thank you all so much for all of the suggestions! I wish I could reply to all of your posts! </p>

<p>Mostly I am gathering that I shouldn't worry so much, at least maybe not yet! (I think Frazzled2 could have been my posting name.)</p>

<p>Looking ahead to junior year it just seems so...Busy with a capital B. I wish she could narrow things down a bit before then. How did your kids get from the hundreds of possibilities to a dozen or so? My daughter's school limits the number of applications to eight or ten, too. </p>

<p>JHS you are right about the athletics. It's a vague sort of wild card right now. We've always had an Academics First policy at home. I'm trying to keep the focus on the academics, but I know the athletics might help her get where she's going, though I wish she'd be wanted for her mind and the wonderful person she is. Well, I guess athlete is part of who she is too, who am I kidding. She loves the challenge of the athletics. </p>

<p>That's part of the "not scholarly" thing I was trying to get at. I guess I didn't put it too well. She likes her tough teachers and tough classes best, but she doesn't want to take summer courses like a lot of kids do. In the summer she works and does her sport, mostly. This will hurt her class rank, because the scholarly driven kids take summer classes to get into the AP classes sooner and take more of them. She will have a bunch of APs but less of them. She declined running for class office because she said she "couldn't do it justice" with all the practices she has, which is true. She doesn't care about National Honor Society either, she says they don't "do anything". I think she'll be one of the only kids not in it who is planning on going to college. So I guess all this will hurt her. </p>

<p>Thanks for the warning about the SAT scores. Maybe it's off topic but the info is really good to know anyway. I am embarrassed to say that 1200 old SAT is considered outstanding around here. Vocabulary--she is good at that. All the reading, I think.</p>

<p>Thank you for sending me to the similar thread and to the college board, and to the merit schools list. With her current criteria, the college board lists about seven hundred colleges. So thanks for all of the reassurances that she doesn't have to visit them all! Sounds like the board scores will narrow those down, although I just can't see her in a pressure-cooker sort of place anyway. </p>

<p>I honestly don't see her as scholarly because she is just is so unfretting if that is a word, not academically driven or pushing. She's very interest driven, if that makes sense. She's had a lot of "phases" growing up: ocean, space, rocks, dogs, biographies, those sorts of things. This is her sport phase I think. She's very artistic too, but in cooking, gift-making, school projects of any sort--nothing that would really help with colleges. I didn't know the reading made her scholarly. She's just as likely to read Opus as Dickens. Magazines. Newspaper. I would say she is an interesting and interested person. Not brilliant or anything.</p>

<p>How did your kids find colleges with the right amount of challenge? You have me really thinking about that now. </p>

<p>Do any of you worry about small schools seeming too small for your social kids after they've been there for awhile? Discussion classes sound good for her, but so do big vibrant campuses.</p>

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<p>I was always laid back about my school work in high school, and I tend to be one of those "phase" people, too. (I took piano lessons for three months, but when I did, it was all I wanted to do in my free time, so at the end of three months I had conventional third and fourth year pieces at performance level.) I was always very interested in things, though, and curious. I did not work exceptionally hard in high school, and my friends saw me as a bit of a slacker. I'm now at a school known for being extremely intense and intellectual, but I love it, and I fit in pretty well. I don't want you to write off her laid back attitude for being non-scholarly, at least not yet.</p>

<p>Don't worry too much about class rank or NHS or what to write on her applications. She sounds like a great kid who will shine on paper if she can manage to portray herself well. She will likely be able to include many of her outside of school hobies on her applications, as well. </p>

<p>You're right that her junior year grades, AP scores, and especially SATs will play a huge role in determining her list of schools. Just be patient, and I think it will all work out just fine for her.</p>

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<p>I do think that IF a kid is very outgoing and does not express a strong preference for a small liberal arts college, a mid-size to larger college or university is a better choice. My son very much wanted an LAC, but the first thing my daughter said when she stepped on his campus (visiting him, at age 13 ) was that it seemed "too small". My son was happy with his choice at first - but he didn't finish there. There were a number of factors, but the small size didn't help. </p>

<p>My d. thought she wanted a mid-size university -- she was focusing her search on colleges with about 5,000 students -- and then she happened to pass through NYU visiting a friend... and from then on knew that she wanted big school + big city. She's fortunate that she has ended up at a LAC that is part of a larger university -- so she has some of the advantages that a small college offers with none of the disadvantages. </p>

<p>My d's smallest class has 15 students and 2 full profs co-teaching -- and her largest class this semester has 300 students. She tells me that she likes the mix -- and I felt the same way in college. I enjoyed having a balance between seminar / medium size class (30-45 students) / large lectures. The big classes are nice because you don't have to be prepared to participate -- you can just relax and sit back and listen and take notes. </p>

<p>As to finding the right level of challenge -- I can assure you that your daughter will get into plenty of colleges that offer what she needs. Keep in mind that for financial reasons, most of the smartest and most able students end up at public universities, where they can take honors and advanced courses as appropriate. (In other words, only a fraction of the smartest students can afford private tuitions --- and the very top colleges offer little or no merit aid, so almost by definition if a kid qualifies for a lot of merit aid, they are at a school where they are well above average for that college). </p>

<p>Anyway-- you really don't need to worry. Kids start thinking about college more during their junior year, and they start to talk more about college with their friends. So that's when they start narrowing things down on their own. </p>

<p>Oh, my kids didn't do honor society either. My son had some sort of issue about filling out required paperwork -- my d. participated in her sophomore year, but tired of it and quit after that. The colleges don't really care -- it won't hurt at all. There is no particular EC that matters IF the kid is busy and engaged with SOMETHING. And athletics are very highly prized by colleges -- so as long as your daughter is participating in sports that she is pretty good at, they are probably more valuable as a hook to get into college than holding a student office or participating in any resume-padding organizations.</p>

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<p>Madeliene's Mom, Welcome. Sophomore year is still early on in the search and admit process, but it's a good time to start familarizing yourselves with what is an extremely complex system. My son didn't start thinking about colleges until the beginning of his junior year. We were totally in the dark and I have to admit it was terrifying at first when we didn't know the difference between Wellesley and Wesleyan.</p>

<p>From friends, books and counselor's recommendations, he started with a list of about 30. They were all over the place. (In environment and character, that is; just to provide some modicum of structure we decided to focus geographically on the Northeast and Midwest.) But as we did more research and more talking, he was able to focus on the points of differentiation. </p>

<p>By the summer before senior year he had narrowed down to a visit list of 14 and finally, selected 8 to apply to. So it's a continuing process of elimination, with the bullseye in the middle. A group of schools are that are a good fit -- both academically and socially -- that are also affordable and that represent a range of selectivity is the target. </p>

<p>First, it sounds as if your daughter is on the right track and will be a contender at many fine colleges. So her assignment is just to keep doing what she has been doing. College acceptance criteria come in two categories: statistical and subjective. In the numbers category she'll need to keep her grades up, prepare for and take the SAT/ACT. Class rank is also a factor as is rigor of her course load. </p>

<p>On the subjective side she'll need recommendations, essays and extracurriculars. It's too early to worry about the first two but it's time to focus on extracurriculars. Her sport is a natural advantage. If she has another interest or activity that she could develop over the next 2 years, so much the better.</p>

<p>Second, you are right to be concerned about the financial aspect of college. Figuring out how to get the right combination of the right college with the right aid is not an easy proposition. So your assignment is to start learning about the different types of aid out there: what your family will qualify for and how to get it. And, as hard as it may be, start talking to your daughter about what is and isn't workable. Finding a financial safety is just as important as finding an academic safety. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Do any of you worry about small schools seeming too small for your social kids after they've been there for awhile? Discussion classes sound good for her, but so do big vibrant campuses.

[/quote]
Small liberal arts colleges have distinct personalities, moreso, I think, than large universities. There are several that are full of outgoing, active, extroverted kids. Learning about the individual characters is part of the research process.</p>

<p>Good luck and keep us informed.</p>

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<p>I'd recommend taking a couple of guidebooks out of the library or guidance office and start paging through them. Kids can do this for themselves, but I did a first run-through for my kid because I thought it an overwhelming amount of material. I put post-it notes on some schools I thought sounded like his cup of tea. As he read about and responded to those, we both got a better idea of what he was looking for and it has gradually narrowed his list. Visiting campuses cut the list in half. Writing the apps also taught him a lot about who he is and what he's looking for. So did preparing for interviews. </p>

<p>Agree with momrath. Each small LAC we visited was quite distinctive in personality. Though they had a lot in common as a group, they did not feel at all the same. I'm sure one could find discussion-based classes at large Uni's and certainly there are small LAC's with "vibrant" campuses. In the end, if your daughter could be academically and socially happy anywhere, save yourselves some money with a less expensive option.</p>

<p>You're starting this discussion at an early point, so you and your daughter will have plenty of time to figure this out. Enjoy the journey!</p>

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<p>Just adding our experience - we weren't in a position (long story, available elsewhere on CC) to help D figure out what she wanted in a college, with the exception of what fields she "might" want to study and certain ECs. As a result, she has applied to 6 schools with not too many correlating attributes. Six schools, in 5 different states. She has one in-state (private), one a couple hours away, and 4 that need plane flights. She has one public university, and one private university, the rest are LACs. She has no real safeties (but two were EA and she was accepted to both - our safety plan was to apply to some late-date schools if necessary) and several reaches.</p>

<p>Her initial list had something like 85 colleges and universities on it. I removed those that did not offer merit aid. There were plenty left on that list that I think she would have been perfectly happy at, but she got tired of writing essays. Even now, I ask her occasionally which is her "favorite" and get a different answer each time. When April comes, we won't choose completely by money, but it will be a big influence. Not having a favorite can be a real advantage.</p>

<p>My point is, you don't have to apply to every school your D likes and fits, and she doesn't have to make up her mind yet. I believe over the years the list will whittle down on it's own. And when the time comes to actually apply, apply to a mix. Let her pick where to start and stop with the list. Even from fall to spring, kids change, so having a variety to choose from can be helpful.</p>

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<p>She could be placed with people with stronger motivation in a more challenging environment to find out what she really like. She may consider </p>

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<p>Madeline'sMOm
your D sounds alot like mine was at her age,except her focus was music not athletics..but the rest of the personality is so similar.
Our HS didnt rank...ranking isnt a problem excpet in Texas I guess...D wouldn't do Honor Society..said shed do her own volunteer work,not their forced work for brownie points LOL.Also was(still is) a voracious reader,of all types of media.
What worked best for her was an Honors College setting,with great merit aid,at a very large public U.This was after having great results on the PSAT that led her to wind up being NMF.Such great results,untutored, that I made S take tutoring for the PSAT(took the tutoring during the summer between soph-junor years..thats why I bring it up for you to consider) at the time he was less "motivated" but just as smart. Strategy worked for him,he also had great PSAT result,with NMF status to follow, and a scholarship reward at his college of choice..b/c of his sisters experience, he also searched out an Honors setting at a large state U.</p>

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<p>If you can stand one more piece of advice...along with looking at colleges, encourage your daughter to at least begin to think about the BIG picture AFTER college. i.e. a little focus on possible careers can also help with selecting colleges.
She is, you say, someone who is a people person & doesn't fret...so she could be well suited to a career in teaching, counseling, social work, fundraising, sales or health care fields as some quick examples. Obviously a multitude of options!<br>
Have her begin to imagine what her possible career will be...talk with family members, friends, neighbors, etc. who seem (to her) to have interesting careers. This kind of info may help her rule out more than not, but the contemplation of life beyond college, may help her in eventually selecting a college.</p>

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<p>Thank you so much! It is good to know that so many of your kids , or you
Corrange :) , have done just fine with similar personalities. Some of my daughter's best attributes seem hard to put on paper. I think Momrath referred to that, if I am understanding correctly: what of her interests can be put on paper as examples by the time she applies, besides athletics? She has a couple of art awards and she has always been good with little kids. She's tutored and helped coach when help is needed, but it is not all that regular. Maybe she could do more of that. She used to want to be a pediatrician, Irishbird, but now she says it would take too much school :( .
Her teachers have always commented that she is really good at science LABS. I think it is because the labs are hands on, like all of her random artistic pursuits. I think she is a kinesthetic learner. My husband thinks she naturally should be in sales! We don't live near MIT and she doesn't have weeks of free time in the summer, but I wish she could do some career exploration, Inverse.</p>

<p>The points about the honors colleges and lac's are appreciated. I will check out all the books suggested throughout these postings. It is a good idea to leave books for her to look at. She reads everything that's left around the house anyway, so why not college info? Are there books about test review that she could peruse and benefit from throughout the coming months?</p>

<p>I had no idea that Barnard was an lac within a university. Are there other lac's within universities? Columbia is so top-tier it hadn't even crossed my mind. Your daughter must be amazing CAlmom! Somedays I am worried that mine will even make it through high school, but as many as you have said, she may become less laid back by the time it comes to apply to colleges!</p>

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<p>Kids with 'interests' are kids who can easily demonstrate 'passion' in their college essays. They are highly intellectual, in my opinion. Passion is the elusive quality colleges seek in their candidates--particularily for their Extra-Curricular work (aka known as ECs). </p>

<p>In his interest essay, my son wrote about how he tried to build an airplane in my front hall when he was 7--lugging home countless pieces of scrap metal for weeks on end. After a few weeks of nothing happening, I quietly shifted the operation to the garage. When he came home from school he burst into tears--"You never support me! You don't believe I can build an airplane! "</p>

<p>Ummmmm....</p>

<p>In his essay, he told the story of how his interests evolved from 7 to 17. Amusing and genuine and effective.</p>

<p>Another point--he developed a project in the second half of his senior year--and that project was the lynchpin to his applications. The impetus for that project started when he realized he deleted an earlier project by mistake--one that Mom thought would have been 'perfect' for his app portfolio. Boys--gotta love 'em. </p>

<p>At the time, Mom was full of despair but he dove into the new project with determination the likes of which I had never seen in him before. (Thank you Mr Testosterone). It was an amazing effort to watch and the final result was mind-blowing.</p>

<p>The moral of that story is to let those passionate students find their own project--and have faith. They can produce amazing work in short periods of time.</p>

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<p>As a sophomore it's fine to be open and positive regarding all schooling options. As a senior it is important to narrow school choices to 6 to 9 schools; often broken down into groups of 2 to 3 schools that are considered likely admits (safety schools), match schools offering a 30 to 50% chance of being admitted and reach schools offering a 5% to 20% chance of admission based largely on SATs, GPA and AP exams. If applying to liberal arts colleges, it is especially important to show real enthusiasm for each school. The sport can also be significant. Merit aid is more available than the schools published guidelines indicate, especially for desired athletes, URMs with leadership or artistic abilities, or,especially for those showing leadership potential. The real key regarding SAT scores is to get a proper score by being prepared, calm and well rested. If you need a number, anything above 1350 on math and verbal combined will get your child a fair and comprehensive reading at almost all schools when combined with a straight A average. Also there is a lot of full tuition merit scholarship money with 1400 SATs, or in the mid-1300s with leadership potential. The student applicant must, however, show genuine enthusiasm for that school. Though many schools come to mind as potential starting points, your posts really don't share enough information about your child to enable me to offer truly constructive advice. Sport? Preppy? Co-ed only? Etc.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Are there other lac's within universities?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Emory College at Emory University.</p>

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<p>Not sure, but what about Harvard College of Harvard University?</p>