Affirmative Action - Are Asians being put at a greater advantage this year?

<p>I'm not sure if this is only happening at my own school, but it seems like many of the Ivies (Columbia included) are rejecting/deferring the majority of Asians who applied early this year. For instance, every single Asian who has applied to a certain Ivy in my school has so far gotten rejected or deferred, while non-Asians (who were not necessarily a better candidate) were accepted.</p>

<p>Even for Columbia, they only accepted people with legacy in my school (who all happened to be White). Those who didn't have legacy or a parent working in Columbia were rejected.</p>

<p>So far, I only know of 2 Asian people who were accepted to an Ivy. All other schools rejected or deferred Asians.</p>

<p>Is this how it typically is or does it seem more serious this year? I'm just appalled at the results these past few days and, honestly, can't seem to wrap my head around it. It just seems like these schools are making an extra conscious effort to reject Asian students (though I'm not sure why it's more serious THIS year, out of all the years)</p>

<p>** edit: I meant to write "disadvantage" in the thread title - my bad!</p>

<p>I honestly don’t know the answer to this question, but I do firmly believe that affirmative action is one of America’s most skewed and unethical practices.</p>

<p>hey man
the sad truth is that there are too many qualified Asians applying, so even though we are “minority” in U.S society as a whole, we for sure do not constitute a minority on Ivy League campuses (ASIAN REPRESENT!) </p>

<p>but I completely get your feeling dude. I got in Columbia College yesterday, without any hooks, with a low SAT Score. You can prob guess what i felt for the past month - i mean, I thought to myself, if I’m not even a standout among the Asians(all my friends who applied to columbia who are asian had 2350 + SAT’s) how am i gonna get accepted? deferred at best. I had like no hope lol.</p>

<p>but it wasn’t that way. Ivies are extremely flexible. If you are an Asian (well this goes for everyone i guess) dont go grade grubbing. Grades/SAT scores are important, but only up to a certain level. Think hard about how you can be unique, and develop yourself in other areas. </p>

<p>Like f.x I had a passion for American History, so instead of chasing after math my whole high school career, I did alot of humanities related stuff. You also have to “lighten up the classroom” so like definitely contribute in classroom discussions and stuff.</p>

<p>okay i feel like all that i just typed didnt really have a direction, but feel free to take whatever you want out of that ramble lol. k bye</p>

<p>It’s always been hard for asians to get into top tier schools. Now, for an asian male to get into an ivy…that is quite an accomplishment.</p>

<p>thanks. but i mean, I really didnt feel like there was too much going on</p>

<p>I went in knowing that Asians face tougher competition. But I also knew that I was unique (life experience, activities, etc.) and that my recs were going to be good because I did my best to contribute to the vitality of the classroom. </p>

<p>I think its just that most Asians (prob cuz of parents) place too much emphasis on grades and stuff and leave out others…an asian student with a 2380 but with teacher recs that say he/she is shy and never talks in class will never get accepted anywhere.</p>

<p>I only made a 2260 and thought that was going to be the cause of my rejection.</p>

<p>also, you never really know. ivies are alot of times different among themselves in criteria and stuff. something harvard holds unique/interesting may cause yale to yawn.</p>

<p>It’s possible that many of the rejected Asians had very standard, cookie-cutter profiles: great grades, great test scores, years of playing a musical instrument, but very little to differentiate themselves from the hundreds of other people who did the same thing.</p>

<p>Asians are always disadvantaged when it comes to college admissions. I am Asian myself and I guess I just got lucky this year.</p>

<p>asians are not disadvantaged - at least not in the sense presented in here of some conspiracy.</p>

<p>as someone with a) knowledge of admissions and b) a fairly good understanding of the asian/asian-american community, i believe this to be entirely true. instead of skirting around the issue, i’ll be blunt.</p>

<p>a lot of students try to blame admissions, but i liken the “problem of being asian” as similar to the “problem of applying pre/med or econ” though i do not suggest that the two are interchangeable. applying with an interest that is overrepresented in the pool as it is applying from ethnicity that is overrepresented in the pool means that the burden to be admitted changes and becomes higher, yet it doesn’t mean that any fewer students are admitted each year, in fact it is the contrary. by my contention - students who declare being interested in premed have a significant disadvantage in the application process not because they are not intelligent, but the size of the pool is so large that at a certain point you’ve seen every student that has volunteered for 2 weeks at a hospital saying they are interested in medicine; so you start seeking out only the students that have volunteered for a month, and the bar goes higher from there. the burden becomes higher on the student to distinguish him/herself. in fact i’d go further to say it is not so much being “Asian” aka checking the box (as a lot of asian/asian-americans have begun not to check any box as it is their choice), but often it is unconsciously pursuing the same thing, and not distinguishing oneself from others that have a similar background. from my perspective, a lot of white upper-middle class applicants suffer from the same problem of appearing too similar. </p>

<p>it becomes easy to be desensitized to accomplishment as an admissions officer, or at least that is what i have been told: being captain of the tennis team or being part of nhs loses its lustre; whereas it means a lot to you as a student, it lacks intrigue to a top tier admissions officer that has seen it before. what is truly impressive is someone that stands out based on their context.</p>

<p>what is affirmative action?</p>

<p>a lot of students consider it to be a double standard set to create an unethical playing field. this is not AA, especially not at top tier colleges today. i’d go as far as to say the original impulse for AA, to correct long standing disadvantages to some communities is no longer even the metric by which AA is measured.</p>

<p>what AA has left though is an impetus for admissions offices to care about context and to contextualize experience a lot better. what does it mean to be mexican-american and grow up in a family that doesn’t speak english? how might that effect your learning? what does successful look like coming from different contexts? at this point the metric by which all students are measured is to the yardstick that seems to be based on what they provide the admissions officer - it is who they are, what they say they want to be, and how hard have they worked relative to the resources available to make their goal happen. </p>

<p>what this also means is i’ve heard of conversations where admissions officers work with asian-american scholars to figure out what does it mean to stand-out within that context, what are indicators of students that do the best in college that come from a first generation american background v. someone whose family has been here since the 1880s. thus AA has in fact led to a more holistic admission practices that folks talk about, it has led to the denaturalization of standardized testing as the holy grail of success and led to other more nuanced understandings of excellence. new questions begin to be asked that didn’t used to be asked when AA first came into existence, and now about populations and groups that were not originally the intent of AA.</p>

<p>what does it mean to be a nationally-recognized athlete? how much commitment and mental energy does that require? </p>

<p>what does it mean to be the only asian in your small town? what kind of pressures does it place on you as a student? what kind of stresses does it place on you?</p>

<hr>

<p>this doesn’t mean more students are being admitted, but there should be solace in that no one is being immediately denied just for being asian, that doesn’t happen at top tier schools. </p>

<p>and from a personal perspective, i think that as populations shift, there will always be a need to support diversity in admissions, to support contextual-based admissions reading, and to support empowerment of communities and individuals that may be at that moment less powerful (at least in some foucauldian notion of knowledge-power dynamics). it should be comforting to know that if the tables were turned that people would be enlightened enough to thing critically about admissions in a way that is both for the individual, for the class, and in the grander scheme for society at large.</p>

<p>lol wow SUBTLE stereotyping of Asians as shy kids with high scores :slight_smile: I have three Asian friends that applied to Columbia - one was the stereotypical Asian - not really outspoken, 2400, went to the Columbia summer program, school online newspaper - he was accepted. Another was a “supported athlete” for a rare sport and had a lower SAT score (2200ish? after like…4 tries) and far lower GPA. She was accepted. The last friend was the outspoken, opinionated one aspiring to be a historian/lawyer with a 2300+ SAT and good GPA and so much more credentials that showed her passion and genuine interest in what she was doing, not to mention she probably got GLOWING recommendations from her teachers. She got rejected.</p>

<p>I don’t think you can fit it to the “cookie-cutter model idea” because the last friend abhors math and science and was about as far from the “cookie-cutter Asian” as could be. She wrote about the correlation between history and cosmetology for goodness sakes hahah. The “cookie-cutter model” Asian was accepted…</p>

<p>Hm, I’m not sure if this year is any worse than any other years. </p>

<p>The two people in my school who have made it to top 10 colleges so far (early decision) are both asian and chinese males. One got into Columbia college and the other got into the dual degree Vagelos program at UPenn. I think it could depend on your school demographic though, as my school is about 60-70% asian (40% subcontinental indian and 20-30% “oriental”).</p>

<p>adiboo - you aren’t presenting the candidates as they presented themselves, nor have you told us what the 2400 applied for. there are too many missing variables for a properly contexualized reading to be had.</p>

<p>they are not being disadvantaged. there are a LOT of asians in the Class of 2015 from what i’ve seen in the facebook group. it’s probably just that there are a lot of asians who apply, and so by default there are going to be a lot of asians being rejected</p>

<p>admissionsgeek, I think you’re definitely right on most aspects.</p>

<p>With all due respect though, your contention on how affirmative action doesn’t really exist anymore and that the only reason it is perceived to exist is because admission officers take disadvantages into perspective is not entirely true. Admission officers are still somewhat looking to recruit minorities, even if they do not seem entirely disadvantaged.</p>

<p>I know that you’ll probably say that I do not know everything about this applicant, but one of my best friends (an African American), whose both parents are doctors, who drives a BMW (no disadvantage factor there right?) received a 2150 on his SAT. He had no leadership throughout high school, and asked me to look over his essay. It was a super standard “how I saved the day” type of essay(I’m not going to give specifics). I told him to change it, or at least spice it up (since there was no way I could have edited it without first taking it in a whole new direction). He got into Columbia and Harvard last year. He also opted out of the interviews, even though he was given a chance.</p>

<p>MOST (if not all) minority (African American, Native American, Hispanic) that makes above a 2350 SAT, and decent ranks, will be fought over by top tier colleges. You definitely do not see that with Asian or Caucasian students. Also there was a study that was done a couple of years ago (from A is for Admissions) that cites how over 11k Asian American students scored at a optimal level for colleges, I forgot the number for Caucasians but it is far more, but how only 1-2k African Americans did. Therefore, in order to fulfill a year’s certain minority recruitments, an ivy is bound to fight for the qualified URM’s.</p>

<p>I really hope I’m not sounding arrogant or know-it-all here, but that is just my personal analysis from objective data</p>

<p>i was going to say that this is the case everyone has a problem with, someone whom a student clearly believes they are better than, and who does not face perceived disadvantages. - </p>

<p>your friend is not impressive in general sense, but within the black pool, he is extraordinarily impressive in terms of raw stats. that is to say he is in the top .5% of applicants from that context, hence why he is fought over. also there are studies that suggest even at the highest income levels because of things such as stereotype threat, desire to fit in, but always an internal sense of not belonging, students that are african americans even at high income levels tend to underperform by 100-150 points compared to their asian/caucasian peers.</p>

<p>i will also say being a minority applicant from a upper middle class town that the least fun thing in life is being told you don’t deserve something, that you got it because of your skin color/race. it used to haunt me on a daily basis, these are attacks that are not just damaging to their psyche, but often leads (if you believe in claude steele’s stereotype threat) to underperformance, or perform to the perceived standard.</p>

<p>the second argument i have heard is the idea that race is more complicated than socioeconomic level. thus confusing race with mere socioeconomic questions aka we admit only socially mobile poor blacks creates a culture on campus that highlights racial divisions as class divisions, further isolating populations. this argument states that you need to have middle and upper class blacks/hispanics, etc., to create a sense of diversity within those minority populations that is good for those populations, but also good for the interaction crossing ethnic/racial boundaries on campus. </p>

<p>it means that your friend - who i think you have to realize is quite the exception to the rule - is given preference that you feel uncomfortable with, but he does something for the community (both the school, but also a greater imagination of race and socioeconomic status that is not rigid) that is why he is considered highly-admissible.</p>

<p>if at columbia, and i know the way the minority recruitment works and their perspective in that office, would probably have had some uneasiness with this as you do, but there probably was the voice in the room that tried to contextualize the student on the two grounds i’ve laid above. it doesn’t mean every student like your friend will be admitted, but it is a reminder that students are admitted often for very different reasons. it isn’t a meritocratic endeavor, nor should it be. because meritocracy presumes everyone has the same access to resources and are treated equally, we all know that is a farce. </p>

<p>and as a final reminder - blacks have the lowest freshman retention rate in the country, and this is irrespective of income level (this is why the achievement gap is often more seen as a racial than socioeconomic). the only schools where black retention is for the most part on par with the rest of the population is in ivy and ivy-like schools. the supportive culture, the high standards push students who perhaps even seem middling to outperform expectations. whereas students who are caucasian or asian rarely face difficulties if they go to schools outside of the first tier. </p>

<p>anyhow, these are not meant to be open and shut answers, they are contested topics, that are changing and developing. i think the point is that admissions officers at columbia and other top schools are having these conversations, and they’ve shared that with student helpers about the complexities of what we call affirmative action. clearly it is something that folks have difficulty grappling with. not just you and i.</p>

<p>admissiongeek, I think I misunderstood you before. I was saying that even though some African Americans may be well to do in terms of economics, they still get in because ivies actively recruit African Americans, regardless of perceived disadvantages.</p>

<p>I read your last post, and it was pretty much exactly what I was trying to get across. Sorry …</p>

<p>And if you don’t mind me asking, are you an admission officer? You clearly seem to know everything on college admissions and you definitely helped me out a bit before (Thanks for that!)</p>

<p>"your friend is not impressive in general sense, but within the black pool, he is extraordinarily impressive in terms of raw stats. that is to say he is in the top .5% of applicants from that context, hence why he is fought over. "</p>

<p>Admissionsgeek, are you saying that Asians are only compared to Asians and Blacks are only compared to Blacks? Isn’t it a bit unethical to only judge an applicant against others of the same race? In that case, Asians really do have a disadvantage in the admissions process because there are many more qualified Asian applicants.</p>

<p>Also, I’m not uncomfortable with affirmative action lol. back in freshmen year, I use to think it was unfair haha, but like over the years, over critical analysis and in depth of the topic via debate and other research assignments, I accept the fact that affirmative action serves a long term advantage by exposing students to diversity. I’m not complaining lol, even though I am Asian and a lot of my friends (who are also Asians lol) think they get the raw end of the deal in admissions</p>

<p>Oh yeah and also…this is really random but the Sandra Day O’Connor quote just popped into my mind at dinner lol…it was on her ruling for affirmative action for the UMichigan Law School case, can’t put an exact name on it…its on the edge of my tongue lol its like Gruttz v. ____ or something like that but anyhow her saying on how Affirmative Action is necessary atm to promote diversity and how she wishes that in the future Aff. Action will be abolished when it would be deemed unnecessay. </p>

<p>I agree with that - aff action is necessary right now to expose everyone in a higher learning institution to diversity, and I would definitely want a diverse experience in college</p>