<p>What happens to URM's after they get in?</p>
<p>Does anyone have statistics of dropout rates or college GPA's of URM's vs. legacies vs. non URM/legacy students in selective colleges?</p>
<p>I have said this already, but legacy is different because it can actually predict your success in college. It is something that reassures the admissions office, saying, well if this kid was raised by a graduate from here, it is likely that they already have the standards that our school demands.</p>
<p>I don't see how race provides the same reassuring feelings in the admissions office. For the time being, lets assume that the gift you get for legacy and the gift you get for AA are the same:</p>
<p>So also lets say I grew up in a broken home, my parents didn't care what I smoked or how I performed in school, and I operated on simply self-motivation to get me this far, although that self motivation only went so far. At any moment I could lose interest in school and have nothing instilled in me to keep from completely failing out of school (trust me, I know kids like this). And I apply to Harvard, more because of the prestigous name and my own curiosity than anyone encouraging me to do so. Because I am a Native American, I am given the same preferential treatment as a white student, who has lived his whole childhood under the strict standards of Harvard graduate A, and has been raised for the sole purpose of being able to attend an Ivy League school.</p>
<p>There's the difference. Can that happen? Sure.</p>
<p>Trust me...my best friend's dad went to Harvard, and she is not very smart. I still don't see how you can disagree with AA and be ok with legacies. I understand you think its different because they can supposedly "predict" that just because you come from a high class family automatically makes you smart. Sorry, thats not always true.</p>
<p>so rufio, it doesn't matter that the minority had no support from his family? He's just going to grow up to be a failure in life? But the legacy will grow up to succeed because their parents were fortunate enough to go to a top university? You're basically saying that the minority doesn't deserve any help because they didn't receive it at home, so they shouldn't receive it in college because they're not going to succeed anyway.</p>
<p>I fail to see how pointing out the fallacies of the legacy admissions process provides a convincing support for affirmative action. Two wrongs do not make a right.</p>
<p>Well...I don't know about anyone else but I was responding to rufio's assertion that legacies are "right" not "wrong"</p>
<p>"Two wrongs do not make a right."</p>
<p>neither does a wrong and right.</p>
<p>Sigh.........</p>
<p>Fiveminutesaday, there is NO way to avoid all exeptions, but you are simply ignorant to assert that a college should value someone's family background the same as someone's skin color. Hopefully we can agree that any admission's office's intentions is to accept the students who will perform the best in their college.</p>
<p>Legacies are given bonus points because a student's parents have a direct affect on their child's lives, and often for selective schools the alumni keep and hold the same standards they learned with at college. (Have you seen Dead Poet's Society, Neil's character? good example. I go to a college prep school with a large number of students whose parents went to really good schools in my grade, but for some reason not in other classes. We have 80% on the honor roll, class of 05 had 15%, see the trend?)</p>
<p>The way I see it (I have established my view of AA already), minorities (like me, although I'm choosing to be accepted by merit, not race) are given bonus points because they will NEVER be as good as their white peers and thus need a little boost. Minorities who are less qualified for the school based on all other factors are accepted over other students more qualified, for what reason?</p>
<p>
[quote]
so rufio, it doesn't matter that the minority had no support from his family? He's just going to grow up to be a failure in life? But the legacy will grow up to succeed because their parents were fortunate enough to go to a top university? You're basically saying that the minority doesn't deserve any help because they didn't receive it at home, so they shouldn't receive it in college because they're not going to succeed anyway.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If Afirmative Action were fixed, a minority whose family made a decent living who has a horrible home life, just like plenty of white families the same way that haven't been getting the preferential treatment for so many years, will get no bonus points for their skin color. You aren't blaming the person's home life on their race, are you? Cause there are just as many minority families with problems as there are white families I would assume, and AFAIK colleges are not supposed to look for someone's excuses to help them get in. You are given what you are given, anything more than that I would get into theology, but that's straying too far from the topic.</p>
<p>Legacy facillitates one's entrance into the college of his/her parents. The fact that legacies have an advantage is irrefutable, if there was no advantage then there would be no need to denote someone as legacy. It rewards graduates of the school by allowing their offspring easier admittance in hopes of the school receiving a nice financial contribution from the family and in all honesty, I have no problem with that, but call it what it is.</p>
<p>First of all, when did legacy become about "oh his parent's are really smart...so he must be" Now thats ignorant. Legacy is about the fact that someone in the family has graduated from that school, and they basically want them to keep making donations. </p>
<p>BOTTOM LINE: It gives you an advantage, and thats what you're arguing against.</p>
<p>Something else interesting...</p>
<p>"Bok and Bowen do acknowledge that in order to achieve a racially diverse student body we have admitted students whose test scores were less strong than those of other students. Yet the authors also find that, once admitted, African-American students have done very well strictly in terms of academic achievement (although not quite as well as their counterparts); in particular they have also found that African-American students have gone on to achieve advanced, their earning power is very strong and, more than their white counterparts, they are more active in civic affairs."</p>
<p>An Article On Legacies (which has nothing to do with the fact that colleges want them because they are supposedly smart because of their family history, its all about the money) :</p>
<p>But curbing them could have serious financial implications for colleges. Alumni provide 28% of the private donations to higher education-$6.83 billion in the 2000-2001 school year. When their children are rejected for admission, alumni sometimes react as Princeton graduate Richard Hokin did. He stopped giving to his alma mater after it turned away two daughters several years ago. "I took it as a personal affront," says Mr. Hokin.</p>
<p>"Schools are candid in saying that long-term financial support is the chief reason for the legacy preference"</p>
<p>(also nothing to do with genetics)</p>
<p>Source: <a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/archive/03apr/EDUC_legacy.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/archive/03apr/EDUC_legacy.htm</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
What happens to URM's after they get in?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The following series of post is based on information from The Journal on Blacks in Higher Education (there are also charts that give comparisons in graduation rates at various schools)</p>
<p>The percentage of young blacks being admitted to our brand-name colleges and universities continues to hold firm. We report current enrollment rates, school by school, beginning on page 6 of this issue of JBHE (Autumn 2004).
According to the most recent statistics, the nationwide college graduation rate for black students stands at an appallingly low rate of 40 percent. This figure is 21 percentage points below the 61 percent rate for white students.</p>
<p>Graduation rates play an important role in measuring the success of affirmative action programs. Many opponents of affirmative action assert, often without even looking at the actual data, that black student graduation rates are damaged by race-sensitive admissions. It is critical to review the statistics to see if this is true. For this reason, in this report we emphasize the graduation rates of black students at the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities. Almost always these are the institutions that have the strongest commitment to race-sensitive admissions.</p>
<p>Academically selective institutions are almost always strongly committed to affirmative action in admissions, yet at the same time they tend to deliver a high black student graduation rate. Obviously, this undercuts the assertion made by many conservatives that black students admitted to our most prestigious colleges and universities under race-conscious admissions programs are incapable of competing with their white peers and should instead seek admissions at less academically rigorous schools. </p>
<p>Nearly 19 out of every 20 black students who enter the highly competitive academic environment of Harvard, Princeton, Haverford, and Amherst go on to earn their diplomas. Other academically demanding colleges do very well, although not as well as these four. </p>
<p>Sixteen other highly competitive colleges and universities turn in black student graduation rates of 85 percent or more. They are Wellesley College, Williams College, Brown University, Davidson College, Colgate University, Duke University, Northwestern University, Swarthmore College, Wesleyan University, Yale University, Georgetown University, Stanford University, Washington University, Dartmouth College, Columbia University, and the University of Virginia. </p>
<p>Colleges & Universities With the Nations Highest Black Students Graduation Rates 2004</p>
<p>[ul]
[<em>]Amherst College 95%
[</em>]Harvard 93%
[<em>]Princeton 93%
[</em>]Haverford 92%
[<em>]Wellesley 91%
[</em>]Brown 89%
[<em>]Wash U. 89%
[</em>]Colgate 88%
[<em>]Northwestern88%
[</em>]Stanford 88%
[<em>]Williams 88%
[</em>]Yale 88%
[<em>]Davidson 87%
[</em>]Duke 87
[<em>]Swarthmore 87%
[</em>]Wesleyan 87%
[<em>]UVA 86%
[</em>]Columbia 85%
[li]Dartmouth 85%[/li][/ul]</p>
<p>Far more disturbing is the poor black student graduation rate at the academically selective University of Michigan. This is a huge state university of 40,000 students. And its performance is a national bellwether. Only 64 percent of entering students at the University of Michigan go on to graduate. Each year there are 350 or more black freshmen who enroll at the university. </p>
<p>As for the nation's other high-ranked institutions, only five other schools have a black student graduation rate below 70 percent. They are Bates College, CalTech, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the University of Southern California, and the University of California at Berkeley. Several other highly ranked colleges and universities Bryn Mawr College, Hamilton College, Trinity College, and the University of California at Los Angeles have raised their black student graduation rates to over 70 percent. Last year these schools had a black graduation rate below 70 percent.</p>
<p>*Explaining the Differences in Black Student Graduation Rates *</p>
<p>Why are black graduation rates very strong at some high-ranking institutions and considerably weaker at other top-ranked schools? Here are a few possible explanations: </p>
<p>[ul]
[li] Clearly, the racial climate at some colleges and universities is more favorable to African Americans than at other campuses. A nurturing environment for black students is almost certain to have a positive impact on black student retention and graduation rates. Brown University, for example, although often troubled by racial incidents, is famous for its efforts to make its campus a happy place for African Americans. In contrast, the University of Michigan has had its share of racial turmoil in recent years. As a very large institution of nearly 40,000 students, it has little capacity to worry about black students or their graduation rates. </p>[/li]
<p>[li]Many of the colleges and universities with high black student graduation rates have set in place orientation and retention programs to help black students adapt to the culture of predominantly white campuses. Colleges with such programs include Williams College, the University of Virginia, and Brown University. Mentoring programs for black first-year students involving upperclassmen have been successful at many colleges and universities. Other institutions appear to improve graduation rates through strong black student organizations that foster a sense of belonging among the African-American student population. </p>[/li]
<p>[li] Geographic location unquestionably plays a major role in black student graduation rates. For example, Bates College in Maine is located in a rural area with a very small to negligible black population. The same holds true for Grinnell College in Iowa, Oberlin College in Ohio, and Carleton College in Minnesota. Black student graduation rates at many of these rural schools are lower than at colleges and universities in urban areas. </p>[/li]
<p>[li]The presence of a strong and relatively large core of black students on campus is important. Among the highest-ranked colleges and universities, institutions that tend to have a low percentage of blacks in their student bodies such as CalTech, Bates, Middlebury, Grinnell, Davidson, Carleton, and Colby also tend to have lower black student graduation rates. Black students who attend these schools may have problems adjusting to college life in an overwhelmingly white environment. And these schools are less likely to have black-oriented social or cultural events to make black students feel at home.</p>[/li]
<p>[li]Curriculum differences also play an important role in graduation rates. Carnegie Mellon University and CalTech are heavily oriented toward the sciences, fields in which blacks have always had a small presence. It continues to be true that at many high-powered schools black students in the sciences often have been made to feel uncomfortable by white faculty and administrators who persist in beliefs that blacks do not have the intellectual capacity to succeed in these disciplines. </p>[/li]
<p>[li]High dropout rates appear to be primarily caused by inferior K-12 preparation and an absence of a family college tradition, conditions that apply to a very large percentage of today's college-bound African Americans. But equally important considerations are family wealth and the availability of financial aid. According to a recent study by Nellie Mae, the largest nonprofit provider of federal and private education loan funds in this country, 69 percent of African Americans who enrolled in college but did not finish said that they left college because of high student loan debt as opposed to 43 percent of white students who cited the same reason. [/li][/ul]</p>
<p>Under any circumstance, a college education costs huge amounts of money. Not only are there very large outlays for tuition, books, and travel, but, even more important, going to college takes a student out of the work force for four or more years. The total bite into family income and wealth can amount to $150,000 or more per student. High and always increasing college costs tend to produce much greater hardships for black families. </p>
<p>Deep financial pockets enable some schools to provide greater financial aid than others. And this is a major factor in student graduation rates. Well-funded universities such as Princeton, which has the nation's largest endowment per student and probably the nation's most generous financial aid program for low-income students, will undoubtedly claim an advantage in black student retention and, subsequently, in producing high graduation rates. Obviously, the availability of a high level of financial aid shields low-income black students from financial pressures that may force minority students to leave college to fulfill family obligations and financial responsibilities. </p>
<p>This journal has always placed emphasis on financial pressures as a major agent in producing low black graduation rates. But, clearly, cultural and family issues bear a huge responsibility. Invariably, the critical problem is that a very high number of young blacks are entering college with wholly inadequate academic credentials, ambition, and study habits. </p>
<p>We accept the view that a very strong black student graduation rate is a good indicator of institutional success in racial integration of a given campus. But readers are cautioned that a lower graduation rate can be a positive indicator of a college or university's willingness to take a chance on academically dedicated young black students with substandard academic credentials.</p>
<p>*Comparing Black and White Graduation Rates *</p>
<p>Sometimes a better way to compare the performance of the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities in successfully graduating black students is to examine the difference in the graduation rates between their black and white students. Using this comparison, a high-ranking institution such as Smith College in Massachusetts, which has a black student graduation rate of 81 percent a figure well below many of its peer institutions nevertheless ranks high on a relative basis because its white student graduation rate of 83 percent is only two points higher than the black student rate.</p>
<p>Many academics and administrators will be surprised to hear that there are a few selective colleges in the United States that report a higher graduation rate for blacks than for whites. Five of the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities actually have a higher graduation rate for black students than for white students. According to the latest statistics from Mount Holyoke College, Pomona College, Washington University, Wellesley College, and Macalester College, a black student on these campuses is more likely to complete the four-year course of study and receive a diploma than is a white student. JBHE has not been able to identify the reason for this anomaly at these five institutions, which is markedly inconsistent with nationwide statistics. </p>
<p>At all of the other highly ranked colleges and universities in our survey, the black graduation rate is below and usually significantly below the white graduation rate. </p>
<p>At some institutions the difference in black and white graduation rates is very small. At Colgate University, Amherst College, and Haverford College, the white student graduation rate is only one percentage point higher than the rate for blacks. At Emory University and Smith College the difference is only two percentage points. </p>
<p>At the Ivy League schools of Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, and Brown, the black graduation rates are relatively high, and in all instances they are seven percentage points or less below the graduation rate for white students. At Yale, Penn, Dartmouth and Cornell, there is at least an 8 percentage point racial gap in graduation rates. </p>
<p>All told, there are 36 high-ranking colleges and universities that have a favorable black-white graduation rate difference of eight percentage points or less. Last year there were only 30. Three years ago only 16 high-ranking colleges and universities had a graduation rate gap of eight percentage points or less. This is a strong sign of progress.
Overall, 20 of the 56 colleges in our survey report a black graduation rate that is 10 percentage points or more below the graduation rate for white students. Last year, there were five high-ranked colleges and universities at which the black graduation rate gap was a huge 20 percentage points or more below the graduation rate for white students. </p>
<p>This year the racial gap is 20 percent or more only at the University of Michigan. The other highly ranked schools with the largest black-white graduation rate gaps are Trinity College, the University of California at Berkeley, CalTech, Bates College, Washington and Lee University, and the University of California at Los Angeles.</p>
<p>great info sybbie</p>
<p>
[quote]
This year the racial gap is 20 percent or more only at the University of Michigan.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe we should stop bringing blacks kids in on chartered busses from Detriot and telling them that if they apply they WILL get in.</p>
<p>...and people wonder where I get my ideas of AA being wrong.</p>
<p>250 posts later...I stand by my statement: affirmative action has gone too far.</p>
<p>sybbie, you did great research. But Affirmative Actions wasnt created as a result of comparing black and white graduation rates. Why dont you have the guts to compare these stats to an asian student, who bust their a**es off to get into their dream college, but in vain to be replaced by a lower achieveing URM.</p>
<p>Just because you are black, doent mean that it is harder for you to achieve as much as asians. WE are all humans, and so its is completely absurd to accept people based on the color of their skin.</p>
<p>Ok, I can't stand it anymore. This is all sour grapes. I am a hispanic, SAT 1500, 3.9 GPA, EC the best, parents both went to college and am upper middle class. Brown, rejected.</p>