<p>Your above comment just proved my point. KAPLAN is very effective at improving TEST scores. </p>
<p>little late out there in Boston?</p>
<p>I am not suggesting that every single white person has ample cash to burn. I am saying that in general, non URMs find it easier to pay for KAPLAN test prep, etc. than "URMs" do because in general, nonURMs are more financially secure than URMs. THE TRUTH</p>
<p>Again, parents are very important as well. Most URMs live in single-parent homes, where the father is usually M.I.A. </p>
<p>Asians are in a different category because most Asians do not attend inner-city schools. Rarely will you see Asian students going to school in inner-city schools. So when people say "Well, Asians are doing it. Why can't those other minorities do it?" I just respond by saying that they usually attend schools outside of the inner-city, which like I said better prepare their students for the ins and outs of the SAT.
Anyway.. having a SAT score above 1500 does not mean that you will be automatically accepted by HYPS. There is no cutoff for scores. SAT scores is a small factor in admissions.... Don't you read the sites? DAMN.</p>
<p>Yeah I've read all the stats and all that, but I'd still rather be sitting on a 1550 with my GPA and ECs up against someone with a 1300 and their GPA and ECs than up against someone with a 1490 and the same GPA and ECs</p>
<p>King, I agree,this "objective" analysis of AA is nothing more than thinly veiled racism. Like I said and I hope this is the last of this tread.......SOUR GRAPES......
move on. No one will ever win this argument. This is percisely why there is AA!</p>
<p>King, all of the reasons you give for why URMs are disadvantaged lead back to differences in socio-economic status (SES). While it is true that URMs are traditionally less affluent and are more likely to go to inner-city schools than Whites or Asians, there are still plenty of poor Whites and Asians who lack the advantages of their richer peers. If SES (not race) is the fundamental basis for your desire for AA, then, as has been repeated ad nauseum, why not AA by socio-economic status?</p>
<p>Besides, studies have shown that even when differences in income and parental education level are controlled for, whites and Asians still outscore blacks and Latinos on the SAT. In fact, the mean SAT score for whites and Asians whose family income is <$10,000 was higher than the score for blacks whose income is >$80,000. The mean SAT of whites and Asians whose parents only have a high school diploma was also higher than the SAT of blacks whose parents have graduate degrees. </p>
<p>Knowing this, it isn't hard to see that not even SES differences can account for the achievement gap; it is a difference in culture, which IS in the control of the individual. No racism here, just cold, hard facts. So, tell me again how whites and Asians have higher scores simply because their daddies paid for Kaplan test prep?</p>
<p>Can we PLEASE stop accusing any anti-AA posters of being bitter Ivy League-rejects looking for a scapegoat? This seems to be the #1 argument of pro-AA people. If you want to debate, debate on the merits of AA instead of who the poster may be. Who cares why people are against affirmative action? Debate the message, not the messenger. Let's stop with the any-anti-AA-person-must-be-bitter-so-let's-disregard-anything-they-say routine.</p>
<p>Billy Cosby is GOD ^^^ one of the only black people who will tell it like it is an not try to keep a comically unfair advantage.</p>
<p>That said, I am not a bitter ivy reject. I've never been rejected from a school in my life. If Brown turns down my transfer app this year, it will be my first. I do, however, love the ad hominem stuff for the 300th time on this thread. If you're going to attack the messanger and not the message (because that's SUCH a good argument) - make sure you at least have a halfway true attack on that messanger.</p>
<p>It's funny though, because the ad hominem stuff goes straight to the top of the anti AA movement. EG. The top "BAMN" people love standing on colleges like Berkeley and Umich with their megaphones spouting off about the "uncle toms" and racists like Ward Connerly and Bill Cosby.</p>
<p>I guess when you have no defense, name calling ensues.</p>
<p>Hey Maize, you know Bill Cosby suppoorts AA right?</p>
<p>What I find so funny about this thread is that most of the people who are against AA, especially those who advocate socio-economic AA, aren't against it because it gives "unqualified" applicants an unfair advantage, they're against it because for the most part it excludes white people. You people that complain about asians and whites "losing" to URM's won't feel any better about losing the spot to a poor URM or white. You'll still use AA as a scape goat. Or, maybe it'll be okay then b/c maybe an "unqualified" white will be getting in.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You people that complain about asians and whites "losing" to URM's won't feel any better about losing the spot to a poor URM or white. You'll still use AA as a scape goat. Or, maybe it'll be okay then b/c maybe an "unqualified" white will be getting in.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, I complain about AA giving benefits based on something that is completely irrelevant (the color of skin). I have no problems with S-E AA because it is, in fact, relevant.</p>
<p>We like to beleive that college admissions, job promotions, contracts are all done with regard to merit. Struggling out of hardship and poverty can be considered a merit. Skin pigment cannot. You see how that works?</p>
<p>
[quote]
No, he does. I've heard him speak on the issue. He's still liberal in his political views for the most part. Much to your chagrine I'm sure.
[/quote]
No, he has said in reinforces negative views about Blacks. I'd love to be informed if I'm wrong. If you can, by all means link us to some evidence to back up your claim, but for "some reason" I suspect you won't be able to. Bill Cosby's views are pasted all over every website imaginable, but for "some reason" they must have all simply forgotten to include it. Yeah, that's it.</p>
<p>but culture is apart of bringing diversity and what was said earlier in this thread is that culture is key in the difference in SAT scores. therefor if the culture is different, then to brin cultural diversity, the SAT scores and other scores/rankings must be slightly compromised to meet the needs of cultural diversity</p>
<p>I started this thread to say that it isn't being "slightly" tweaked. It's being overtly manipulated.</p>
<p>That said, which cultures do you accept into this? Catholics are underrepresented in I-banking. Jews are underrepresented in farming. Asians are underreprsented in areas, as well. </p>
<p>Take gays, for example, would you be willing to grant this very unique culture group preferential treatment?</p>
<p>...and for as much as colleges talk about diversity, there is absolutely 0 diversity of thought, but since we all know true diversity comes from skin pigment....</p>
<p>once again, AA, is not just for blacks, it's for hispanics, native americans and WOMEN. I'd like to see someone have the guts to attack giving WOMEN AA instead of just focusing on the black person</p>
<p>o, and altho i havent read each page of this 14 pg thread, im not sure if u guys have covered the reason for affirmative action....it is reverse discrimination, but i understand why it is still in effect, and i beilieve it AA needs a few more yrs before it is faded out....ill tell a story about the positive effects of AA: my great-grandfather was the son of a slave, he became a sharecropper in Mississippi in the early 1900's (not by choice, but by need) and his illiterate son (my grandfather) took up the same "trade". the family didnt own anything except 2 cows...a day came when a couple white teenager slaughtered the cows and farm animals for fun....my grandpa punched one in the face and broke his jaw. the whole town "went after him" almost literally, and he ran away to st. louis, mo. he later called for his family and he worked 3 jobs to support them. my mother and her 5 siblings all went to college in the early to late 70's and early 80's. they didnt have any money for college, although they had their grades. thankfully, affirmative action came in and each was awarded several merit scholarships (ahead of well-and equaly qualified whites)....this same system has reached out to help other first generationers, and if my mother had to go to work instead of college like many teenagers did in the black community, then i would be a first generationer.....that is why i appreciate the system, it works.</p>
<p>
[quote]
once again, AA, is not just for blacks, it's for hispanics, native americans and WOMEN. I'd like to see someone have the guts to attack giving WOMEN AA instead of just focusing on the black person
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think affirmative action is unfair and racist. It treats people with the same merits as unequal in meritocracies due to skin pigment, and is therefore the very definition of unfair and racist. If AA is to be anything but unfair and racist, someone will have to provide a good explanation. People have naturally focused their efforts on providing this explanation on the black case because it provides the best example of a backward looking argument (x was wronged in the past therefore x deserves compensation now).</p>
<p>My replies are all still valid in the case of latinos and American Indians. </p>
<p>Women are a completely different ballgame because there are relevant differences between a man and a woman even if Larry Summers was 100% wrong. Women have to step off the tenure track or stop going to the office to give birth. Women MAY be more hard wired to want to stay home and take care of her kids, ect, ect, ect. Regardless, there are no such releveant differences in the case of skin pigment.</p>
<p>Wait a minute. Do you advocate AA for girls applying to college, but not URM's. What makes them any different. most 18 year old female college applicants aren't planning families. Now your entire argument about women and AA is incongruous with your argument about AA and minorities. Perhaps because white women have benefitted from AA more than any other minority group?</p>
<p>The insidious institution of AA isn't just within college admissions or the bubble of CC. Gov contracts, job hirings, promotions, etc all use it. We had a bridge built by a minority contractor (because he was a minority contractor) in my hometown. It collapsed into the river 4 years later.</p>
<p>It's my fault I didn't make myself explicitly clear. I don't agree with women in math, male in nursing type AA at the college level either. Most of my objections still hold against these types.</p>
<p>What I said, however, is that gender AA is a different type of institution, just like s-e AA and race AA are different. </p>
<p>There may not be any relevant differences for an 18 year old girl that require AA, but there sure as hell are for a 25-35 year old in the prime of her career.</p>