Affirmative Action has gone too far

<p>First of all the biggest benefactors of affirmative action hass been white women and now white me over 40 (also due to changes in the age discrimination acts).</p>

<p>AA becomes a major debate on this board when it comes down to 8 selective schools. If people can get past the Ivy obsession and the applying to all 8 schools without any regard for match and safety schools they will find that there are many schools where asians are minorities, will be welcomed with open arms and given tons of merit aid to boot. </p>

<p>If people feel that AA is so egregious, why would you want to attend a private institution (who can build their own classes however they see fit)and supports AA? Why would you even consider wanting to be a student at these schools (Harvard, Brown, The University Of Chicago, Dartmouth, Duke,Penn, Princeton, and Yale) ? There surely there is a disconnect between the school's philosophy and yours.</p>

<p>While AA may open the door for URMs, it is up to them to keep your seat at the table, because if you are not taking care of business your happy butt will be sent home quick fast and in a hurry.</p>

<p>Harvard University, Brown University, The University Of Chicago, Dartmouth College, Duke University, The University Of Pennsylvania, Princeton University, And Yale University filed their brief with the U.S. supreme court in favor of Affirmative Action because they realize that we are not there yet and the playing field is not level in the admissions process. </p>

<p>They closed their brief by saying:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/pr/news/br...-17-harvard.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/pr/news/br...-17-harvard.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>We are not so far removed from the days when segregation by race in education, and race discrimination in all sorts of vital opportunities relevant to educational performance, were for many a matter of law.</p>

<p>The major points for affirmative action in their breifs are as follows:</p>

<p>These schools collectively stated</p>

<p>Academically selective universities have a compelling interest in ensuring that their student bodies incorporate the experiences and talents of the wide spectrum of racial and ethnic groups that make up our society. Amici should be free to compose a class that brings together many different kinds of students; that includes robust representation of students from different races and ethnicities; and that prepares graduates to work successfully in a diverse nation. Indeed, highly selective universities have long defined as one of their central missions the training of the nation’s business, government, academic, and professional leaders. By creating a broadly diverse class, amici’s admissions policies help to assure that their graduates are well prepared to succeed in an increasingly complex and multi-racial society.</p>

<p>The colleges presented the following arguments
[ul]
I- Consideration Of Race And Ethnicity In An Individualized Admissions Process Serves Compelling Interests.</p>

<p>A. There Is a Broad Consensus On The Important Educational Benefits of Diversity.
Diversity helps students confront perspectives other than their own and thus to think more rigorously and imaginatively; it helps students learn to relate better to people
from different backgrounds; it helps students become better citizens. The educational benefits of student diversity include the discovery that there is a broad range of viewpoint and experience within any given minority community – as well as learning that certain imagined differences at times turn out to be only skin deep. It is surely fitting for universities to undertake to prepare their students to live and work in a global economy within a multiracial world. The challenges of contemporary life demand that students acquire not just traditional forms of knowledge regarding science and the arts, but also techniques of bridging differences in perspective and in personal experience.</p>

<p>B. Consideration of Race and Ethnicity Grows Naturally Out Of The Needs Of The Professions and Of American Business.</p>

<p>Every major profession in this country has sought greater diversity within its ranks.4 Businesses have demanded more minority managers and executives, as well as non-minorities who can work well with colleagues from diverse backgrounds.
Leading corporations, business groups, professional organizations, and executives have repeatedly called for consideration of race and ethnicity in university admissions.5 In
adopting their admissions policies, universities are responding to “the clearly articulated needs of business and the professions for a healthier mix of well-educated leaders and practitioners from varied racial and ethnic backgrounds.
[/ul]</p>

<p>The Interest In Racial Diversity Cannot Be Served By Race-Neutral Reliance On Factors, Such As Economic Disadvantage, That Are Already Carefully Considered.</p>

<p>The United States urges (as one solution) that universities look to such factors as special economic hardship instead of race. See U.S. Grutter Br. 24-25. But the decisive fact is that all of the suggested race-neutral factors, and many more besides, already enter into admissions decisions. Consideration of those factors alone does not achieve the distinctly racial diversity that amici seek in their student bodies. To accomplish that goal, admissions committees must give favorable consideration to minority race in addition to those other factors, not instead of them.</p>

<p>By deliberately tilting individual admissions toward “hardship” students in the hope of thereby selecting a large enough increment of minority students to make up for the
losses that would result from race-blind admissions – would be disingenuous at best. Such an approach would in truth be a race based policy and not a race-neutral alternative at all. Indeed, such programs, if adopted to assure increased minority enrollment, would be based on race in a causal sense and would thus raise obvious constitutional questions of their own.</p>

<p>A race-neutral preference for economically disadvantaged students, for example, would admit many more whites than non-whites, because of sheer demographic realities. And, of course, the university interest in admitting minority students goes well beyond just admitting minority students from disadvantaged backgrounds.</p>

<p>Race-Conscious Admissions Programs Are Not Open- Ended Commitments.</p>

<p>The decision of a university as to which minority groups deserve favorable consideration in an individualized admissions process designed to foster such diverse representation, and the weight of such consideration, are necessarily and appropriately decisions to be made as a matter of educational judgment, taking into account both the university’s sense of its mission and its best estimate of the leadership needs it will address – not as a matter of conflicting “rights.”</p>

<p>"If people can get past the Ivy obsession and the applying to all 8 schools without any regard for match and safety schools they will find that there are many schools where asians are minorities, will be welcomed with open arms and given tons of merit aid to boot."</p>

<p>Yes, but those are the so-called "second-tier" schools. In the end, it does not matter as statistically, Asians are better academically than any other minority group. </p>

<p>"because they realize that we are not there yet and the playing field is not level in the admissions process"</p>

<p>Who's we? If you're referring to URMs, it is truly pathetic to see someone put themselves down. At times, many URMs claim to be just as good if not better than others and sometimes they claim to be behind.</p>

<p>Please, if you are going to argue, just give us hard proof and personal opinions, not some journals of politicians and administrators looking for votes and public support from URMs. This issue is not political, its cultural.</p>

<p>Lastly, the greatest benefactors have not been WHITE women, but women in general, whites just represent the majority as they do in general.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/0302/pdfs/amicus_harvard.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/0302/pdfs/amicus_harvard.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>wow i just dont deserve to post on this thread after sybbie719
just blasted the truth in everyone's ears</p>

<p>
[quote]
"because they realize that we are not there yet and the playing field is not level in the admissions process"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>the 'we' that is referenced here is we as a country. Your argument proves that.</p>

<p>The fact that I believe each and every single person in this nation, black, Hispanic, Asian, white, eskimo, martian, is equal and deserve to be seen in equal light both in society, economy, politics, and college admission does not prove anything you have stated. Rather, it disproves it...</p>

<p>In this arguement, I would like to point out the Asian population, whom I believe, in general, have many more disadvantages at birth than the average African-American.</p>

<ol>
<li>Parents usually do not speak English</li>
<li>Family is just starting to settle down. Worries about things other than education.</li>
<li>Lack of money compared to most settled African-Americans</li>
<li>Subject to more racial discrimination</li>
<li>Are forced to live with even more discrimination such as AA</li>
</ol>

<p>Sybbie, you live in NYC. Go to a place called "Fusia" (not sure about spelling) in Queens. Then come back to me and cry about prejudice towards African-Americans and Hispanics. While you're at it look at the homeless populatioin begging compared to the homeless population working and compare those ethnicities as well.</p>

<p>I believe the UC schools are the best at avoiding affirmative action. I remember when Berkeley actually attached a quota to their affirmative action policy listing that a certain race had to make up a certain percentage of the admissions offered.</p>

<p>What ended up happening is that the "underprivileged" race was able to get in more easily, but was not able to compete at that higher level.</p>

<p>The UC's have done away with that system since then.</p>

<p>lol, but if you look at UC Berkeley, it is 40% Asian</p>

<p>That just proves it's done away with the quota system. If it were still in place, the % of Asian would be less.</p>

<p>Are you talking about Flushing? You really want to talk about prejudice, we won't talk about Crown Heights, bedford stuyvesant , Brownville, jamaica, Alphabet city, spanish Harlem, soundview, Parkchester
I can go on for days (as I have live in NYC for more that 2x the amount of time you have been walking the earth) Your point being? There are 8 million stories in NYC, take a # and get in line.</p>

<p>Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Could you repeat that?</p>

<p>Gotta replace that caps lock key.</p>

<p>Drawingdot7: You probably would've gotten into Harvard no matter what race you are, white, asian, black, whatever. Therefore, do you not agree with affirmative because you received no added benefit from it (it's very clear AA did not help you at all)? In that case, can you understand why a white or asian person would be against AA?</p>

<p>
[quote]
END THIS THREAD, BECAUSE THIS IS BECOMING A BREEDING GROUND FOR RACISM. THIS <strong><em>ING THREAD IS RACIST, ASIAN NEO NAZI CLAIMING THAT BLACKS DONT DESERVE ANYTHING, JUST SHUT THE *</em></strong> UP AND TAKE A RIDE TO ANY *<strong><em>ING CITY. YOU SEE WHAT YOU MADE DO, YOUR RACIST TALK HAS GOTTEN EVERYONE UPSET, ALL YOU DO IS PROMOTE DIVISION, ACCEPT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION OR DENY IT BUT DONT EVER CLAIM THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE SEEN A RICH BLACK GUY OR HISPANIC GUY, THAT THE MAJORITY OF THEM DONT STRUGGLE. JUST END THIS *</em></strong>ING THREAD. THIS IS RACIST ****<strong><em>. I DONT CARE ABOUT MY *</em></strong>in LANGUAGE, BECAUSE IF YOU REALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS GO JOIN THE KKK, THIS FORUM IS ABOUT COLLEGE, RACE AND STRUGGLE ARE BEYOND THAT SCOPE.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Everyone argues that these schools need more diverse cultures. This is an example of the culture that they so desperately need?</p>

<p>::laugh::</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ya you can probably rattle of the names of 50 or 100 or even 1000 suburban and rich blacks who have it easy and use the Affirmative Action system. BUT THEIR ARE SOME 35 MILLION BLACKS. 60% LIVE IN THE INNER CITIES OF AMERICA. ACCORDING TO A HARVARD COLLEGE STUDY A HIGH HIGH PERCENTAGE HAVE BEEN INCARCERATED, BEATEN, STABBED, OR SHOT AT.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ok, so why not base AA on economic factors? That way 100% that "LIVE IN THE [poor] INNER CITIES OF AMERICA" get benefits, and 0% of the suburban black doctor's children get benefits?</p>

<p>Also, I think you're wrong about Asians. They lived in horrible conditions. They were subject to "jap-crow" laws every bit as terrible as jim crow. They worked in industry and on the railroads in conditions every bit as terrible as slavery. They were interned during WW. They were deported en masse in the 1920's. The only difference is they pulled themselves out by the boot straps and Blacks seemingly have not. They don't live in those ghettos anymore due to hard work and perserverence, but they most certainly used to.</p>

<p>Needless to say, pointing out this fact doesn't make you a NEO-Nazi or Klan member.</p>

<p>I'm not asian, but I have to say, I'd rather take my chances living in Dorchester than I would in Cambodia under Pol Pot, or in Vietnam after the war, or in China during Mao, or in North Korea under Kim Jong Il. Is it tough in the urban centers of America? Yes. That still doesn't change the fact that many of the asian countries held under communist or dictatorial rule are true hell holes. I don't care who you are or what you've seen, the group of people I have the highest regard for in terms of their struggle are the folks who built a life in China or Cambodia or any number of foreign countries, had it destroyed, came to America, built it <em>again</em> from nothing and instilled a sense of achievement and dedication in their children. If I were you I'd think twice about running your mouth against these types of people for in your mind failing to understand your personal struggles.</p>

<p>", but if you look at UC Berkeley, it is 40% Asian" </p>

<p>are people going to whining about AA till UCB and Harvard is 100% asian</p>

<p>
[quote]
are people going to whining about AA till UCB and Harvard is 100% asian

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If 100% of the most qualified applicants are Asian, than yes I will argue until exactly that point.</p>

<p>"I'm not asian, but I have to say, I'd rather take my chances living in Dorchester than I would in Cambodia under Pol Pot, or in Vietnam after the war, or in China during Mao, or in North Korea under Kim Jong Il. Is it tough in the urban centers of America? Yes. That still doesn't change the fact that many of the asian countries held under communist or dictatorial rule are true hell holes. I don't care who you are or what you've seen, the group of people I have the highest regard for in terms of their struggle are the folks who built a life in China or Cambodia or any number of foreign countries, had it destroyed, came to America, built it <em>again</em> from nothing and instilled a sense of achievement and dedication in their children. If I were you I'd think twice about running your mouth against these types of people for in your mind failing to understand your personal struggles."</p>

<p>LOL, are you serious</p>

<p>Cambodians are considered URM's. The others are people who dont travel to America, A statistically large amount of chinese and vietnamese immigrants come from families with money. It takes money to come to the USA because as far as I know there is no free shuttle service.</p>

<p>The asian groups which are considered URM's are those with bad economies, the ones that arent from economies which arent doing bad.</p>

<p>I'm about done with reading this thread because it's getting ugly, but there are a few things that should be noted.</p>

<p>What we're essentially doing is comparing exceptional cases with exceptional cases. According to some info I dug up, 24.4 percent of blacks live below the poverty line, compared to what I suspect is a tiny fraction of Asians who live below the poverty line. Similarly, the Asian median income is double the black median income.</p>

<p>Now, it's a tragedy that that many blacks live below the poverty line, but realistically, how many of these apply to Harvard, even as a proportion of the african american applicant segment? Not many. Should these be given consideration? Of course - and a significant amount at that - but any individual who has overcome poverty should be given the same consideration. There are of course extenuating circumstances which go beyond poverty, but I'm trying to set basic parameters for how I think things should be. If anything, its public institutions that should be more active in AA, because they are the ones who see the majority of black/hispanic/native american applicants.</p>

<p>I think that a majority of people think that, for example, a wealthy black applicant should not receive consideration over a poor asian applicant on the basis of race (this is one of the hypotheticals that has been played out over and over again) but really, we don't know much about admissions. We don't know, for example, what proportion of blacks at Ivy League colleges whose parents make 100,000+ per year.</p>

<p>My final point is that universities admit applicants on their potential. You may argue that a 1600 SAT represents some sort of academic achievement, but it doesn't. It tests math at a Grade 9/10 level and a bunch of obscure vocabulary that no one really uses. The SAT IIs aren't much better. GPA? That's also largely influenced by the difficulty of the school, the number of AP tests, etc. When you take out the X number of USACO, USAMO, USAPhO qualifiers and all of the Siemens Westinghouse finalists, no one has really achieved anything of what an elite university would consider 'academic merit'. So it's a matter of guesswork.</p>

<p>Would you rather take a student with a 1500 SAT who was 20th in their class in an affluent area or a student with a 1350 SAT who was 5th in their class and came from poverty? I would bet that if their positions were reversed, 1350 SAT kid would have done just as well, if not better. So if I were admitting them and I had to choose, my choice would be clear.</p>