Affirmative Action has gone too far

<p>That Supreme Court brief that sybbie posted is hilariously absurd:</p>

<p>"By deliberately tilting individual admissions toward “hardship” students in the hope of thereby selecting a large enough increment of minority students to make up for the losses that would result from race-blind admissions – would be disingenuous at best. Such an approach would in truth be a race based policy and not a race-neutral alternative at all. Indeed, such programs, if adopted to assure increased minority enrollment, would be based on race in a causal sense and would thus raise obvious constitutional questions of their own."</p>

<p>Hmm...so a race-blind policy that favors low-income students is racist and unconstitutional, but a blatantly race-driven preference system is fine and dandy? Gotta love the logic.</p>

<p>King: "Again, poor whites/asians do not attend inner-city schools."</p>

<p>And your point? I highly doubt that whites and Asians who make less than $10,000 are sending their kids to Exeter.</p>

<p>My point wasn't just that poor whites outperform blacks, it was that poor whites/Asians outperform even RICH blacks. Are you seriously proposing that black students whose families make over $80,000 are still more disadvantaged by racism than the poorest whites and Asians?</p>

<p>"My point wasn't just that poor whites outperform blacks, it was that poor whites/Asians outperform even RICH blacks. Are you seriously proposing that black students whose families make over $80,000 are still more disadvantaged by racism than the poorest whites and Asians?
Moco86 is online now "</p>

<p>what statistics did you get this from?</p>

<p>Moco86 thinks that whites/asians are smarter than blacks/hispanics..... because of SAT scores</p>

<p>Moco86 thinks that SAT scores are the most important factor in college decision making</p>

<p>Where DID you get these stats from? </p>

<p>And where are those standards?</p>

<p>Maybe not Exeter or Andover, but most Asians, poor or rich, go to the same schools as White students, OUTSIDE the CITIES. Asian parents will go the extra mile to make sure that their kid avoids the inner-city schools. </p>

<p>JUST BECAUSE the ppl on this site are OBSESSED with SAT scores does not mean that the colleges feel the same way. This is proven by the numerous 1500 ppl who were rejected by HYPS and other top schools. If kid #1 gets a 1200 and a kid #2 gets a 1400, without talking about anything else, the second kid should automatically be admitted over kid # 1. Ignoring all other factors, if kid #1 happened to take a KAPLAN test prep couirse and gets say a 1490, he is immediately more qualified than kid #2. THIS IS RETARDED LOGIC. (I hope you haters are keeping up)</p>

<p>SAT scores are NOT the main factor for admissions. They are not the main factor</p>

<p>Again, they are not the main factor. They are a small factor. </p>

<p>To Maize, the interview, essay, and supplements mean nothing</p>

<p>It doesn't matter if you have a 1500, if they don't think you will be a good addition then they won't pick you.</p>

<p>PLEASE TAKE TIME TO READ, BECAUSE WE ARE JUST HEATEDLY BICKERING</p>

<p>Jesus Christ, Look this isnt a battle of who has it worse. At the end of the day we live in America. But even if Pol Pot was horrible, Hundreds of Thousands of people died almost overnight in Rwanda. Just please stop comparing race and race, stop trying to claim that a particular race has it hard. I dont personally agree with Affirmative Action, because it sets a lower standard for blacks and hispanics, which i feel insults our intrinsic capabilities. I simply dont care how any of you see the issue, becuase you will never see me. This shouldnt be a contest of who had it the hardest, but when people are claiming that blacks and hispanics are generally better off than Asians dont you think it deserves some reprimend. At the end of the day talking so much about a specific race is really bordering on racism. We should simply talk about the program, its faults, and possible solutions. I would say that if you are for it, than you like the idea of helping students who come from bad schools, bad struggles, and etc which detrementally affect their scholastics. If you are against it than you probably dont like how it gives certain people advantage over other more qualified individuals who where simply born white or asian. THAT IS IT. PLEASE LET US DEBATE ALONG THOSE LINES. The question should be is the good side of Affirmative Action overcompensate the bad side and is it the right solution to cure our educational problem. I suppose the only way to fix our problem is to invest more heavily in Inner City schools and have all those bad schools under direct federal control. We should enter the ghettos and barrios and setup programs to help children leave them. Also we should use race more in a sense of SOCIOECONMIC standard. I understand that a rich black guy doesnt deserve the boost, so we should use economic and overall family life as the criteria, and not race only.
But we have three problems. </p>

<p>What about the years of slavery, racism, segregation that put blacks in th situation we are in today. AT THE END OF THE DAY, BLACKS WERE PLACED HERE IN THE GHETTOS, SO DONT PLEASE DONT SAY THAT ASIANS PERSERVERED AND MOVED UP BECAUSE WE AS BLACKS WERR INSLAVED, SEGREGATED, WE HAD TO <strong><em>IN RIOT TO VOTE, TO EAT, TO DO EVERYTHING WE WANTED , WHERE ARE THE BLACK PRESIDENTS, SUPERMODELS, AND EVERYTHING ELSE. YOU SEE THIS ISSUE IS BEYOND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IT IS ALL THE *</em></strong>*** THAT BLACKS WENT THROUGH AND GO THROUGH, so in that sense i think the rich black kid with a 4.0 and 1600 deserves it more than the white kid with a 4.0 and 1600. </p>

<p>How should we save our schools, and promote minorities in college if we get rid of affirmative action, because whether your against it or not, it is the easiest way to fix the problem of under enrollment. BUT I ADMIT ITS A SMALL BANDAID ON A FATAL INJURY.</p>

<p>Third, do we still want to preferentially treat kids in different ways at all</p>

<p>AT THE END OF IT, PLEASE, LETS TALK ABOUT THE PROGRAM AND ITS MERITS. BUT LETS END THE **** ABOUT RICH BLACKS, BECAUSE YOU ARE JUST USING EXCEPTIONS TO PROVE A SOCIAL PROGRAM WRONG, ITS NOT MATH YOU CANT PLUG IN ZERO TO DISPROVE SOMETHING. LETS STOP TALKING ABOUT THE STRUGGLE OF ASIANS, BECAUSE IM TIRED OF HEARING SOME EXTRAORDINARY STORY WHEN ON AVERAGE ASIANS ARE WELL OFF. THIS IS MY LAST POST, BECUASE UNLESS WE TALK ABOUT THE REAL ISSUES, HISTORIC RACISM, FIXING SCHOOLS, AND HOW DO WE INCREASE MINORITIES IN HIGHER POSITIONS. WE ARENT DOING *<strong><em>. I DONT CARE IF YOU QUESTION MY INTELLIGENCE FOR MY LAST POST, BUT REMEBER I WAS POOR AND BLACK AND I WILL TELL YOU THIS NO AMERICAN GOES THROUGH THE SAME STRUGGLE OF BLACKS AND HISPANICS IN THE GHETTOS. THATS THE REAL *</em></strong>IN STORY. this shouldnt be about who has it worse anyway because if you want to bring up history and *<strong><em>, all i have to say is that 7.5 million blacks were slaves, 1.2 million el salvadoreans are part of gangs, 100,000+ rwandans died almost over night, it was only 30 years ago that segregation was really ended, and schools like Ballou High in Southeast D.C. where Cedric Jennings came from are all the norm in EVERY *</em></strong>IN CITY IN AMERICA. Remeber THIS IS ABOUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AND NOT WHO DESERVES IT MORE, WHO HAS A HARDER STRUGGLE, OR WHATEVER. And its worthless to question me because you dont know me you have never seen my hustle, struggle, pain or anything. So lets debate about ways to fix a problem, ways to give reparations to blacks, ways to improve our schools, ways to help those that struggle to the top.</p>

<p>THE END</p>

<p>i guess this is your last post</p>

<p>I got into my schools, so.........HAHAHA me don't worry</p>

<p>people want a quick fix its the american way , apparently nobody wants to discuss innner city schools and poverty %.</p>

<p>King your not helping much, with your nanana i got in and you didnt attitude</p>

<p>sure I am, haha nanananana hahahaha</p>

<p>no, that is childish.....but didn't we come to this point by page 13?</p>

<p>affirmative action:
an active effort (as through legislation) to improve the employment or educational opportunities of members of minority groups or women </p>

<p>Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc. </p>

<p>racism:
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.</p>

<p>Any questions?</p>

<p>These statistics are from 1992, so the actual numbers have changed somewhat since then, we cannot know in which direction(except for Berkeley, where the gap has decreased markedly), and the picture all the stats taken together paints is more important than the individual numbers. I'm too lazy to look for more recent data and colleges guard this stuff like bankers guard keys. Most data is from Consortium on financing higher education, 1992, I can list the other sources if you want. Here goes:</p>

<p>At selective schools, the median black edge was 180 points while Asians faced a median penalty of 30 points (I'm going to leave out the school-by-school stats for asians, I can post them if anyone wants).
SAT-point difference from the white mean:
Rice:-271
Berkeley:-288
Univ. of Virginia -248
Dartmouth: -218
Oberlin: -206
Univ. of Rochester: -219
Wesleyan: -219
Univ. of Chicago: -207
Stanford: -171
Columbia: -182
Duke: -184
Trinity: -188
Williams: -181
Northwestern: -180
Johns Hopkins: -155
Wellesley: -175
Swarthmore: -200
Amherst: -178
Princeton: -150
Brown: -150
Cornell: -162
U. Penn: -150
Harvard: -95
Georgetown: -147
MIT: -122
Washington: -120</p>

<p>Also, for those who do not respect the SAT as valid measure, the SATs correlate with extracurricular achievement and scholastic achievement, which means statistically students grades and EC's tend to match their SAT scores. I lost the source for that one, I'll post it if I can find it.</p>

<p>How does that prove "poor whites/Asians outperform even RICH blacks." It has no financial info to go with it.</p>

<p>"ways to give reparations to blacks"</p>

<p>Go find the slaveholders or their descendents and sue them in court for stolen property. I'm third generation Italian immigrant and fourth generation Irish immigrant, all arrived after the Civil War (and all treated like crap off the boat as well). I don't owe anyone but my parents anything.</p>

<p>reparations are a dumb idea but I have no idea why japanese people managed to get money for interment.</p>

<p>I made no claim that poor whites/Asians outpreform rich blacks. I have no data on that statement and thus cannot say with any certainty whether or not it is true. Waht I am doing is posting definitions to show that affirmative action falls under the definition of rascism and stats showing the size of the advantage given. This is completely unadjusted for poverty, and if you have numbers adjusted for poverty, I would be very interested in seeing them.</p>

<p>I'll agree that repartions are dumb: giving/taking blood money assumes that forgiveness is possible. It is not (at least in my opinion) in the case of slavery, but on the other hand the guilty people are all dead.</p>

<p>I don't like the fact that there is wealthy, non-white, well off students who go to top high schools like phillips and are treated the better off then a white student who grew up in a tough neighborhood, facing harsh factors that play a roll in a students perception of life and school. I feel that socio-economic status (btw I'm refering in terms of money) should play a greater impact then what color skin you have or where your from.</p>

<p>"I made no claim that poor whites/Asians outpreform rich blacks. I have no data on that statement and thus cannot say with any certainty whether or not it is true. Waht I am doing is posting definitions to show that affirmative action falls under the definition of rascism and stats showing the size of the advantage given. This is completely unadjusted for poverty, and if you have numbers adjusted for poverty, I would be very interested in seeing them."</p>

<p>it referred to Moco86 posts. Just posting defs ignores all complexities of the issue caused over the years.</p>

<p>The definitions show that affirmative actions is rascism. I personally believe that any and all rascism is unjust, and thus affirmative action is morally reprehsible. On the other hand, this does not make affirmative action wrong, it just makes it rascisct. If you believe that using rascism to try to readjust for past racism is okay, then you are entitled to that belief. I just think that any and all rascism is wrong, no complexities, no exceptions.</p>