<p>re: post #425
The RS author could have also interviewed the Corner man who threw a bottle at Jackie’s face. I presume the Corner man is in jail for assault or were there no witnesses for the incident too?</p>
<p>We all can speculate about Jackie. We don’t know.</p>
<p>We do know rapes are occuring. My alma mater…</p>
<p><a href=“5 More Sexual Assaults Reported At UC Berkeley Fraternity; 9 Incidents Reported Around Campus In A Month - CBS San Francisco”>http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/10/17/5-more-sexual-assaults-reported-at-uc-berkeley-fraternity-9-incidents-reported-around-campus-in-a-month/</a></p>
<p>UC Berkeley cut its ties to some frats yet the frats still exist. </p>
<p>dstark, It’s interesting that the link you provide refers to one man who was arrested and later found to be “factually innocent” by a judge. A judicial finding of innocent, as in the Duke Lacrosse case, is highly unusual and indicates that he was the victim of a false rape charge, which unfortunately happens more than people wish to admit. Slate magazine had an article a while back about five Hofstra students who were falsely accused of raping a girl, and the only reason they didn’t go to prison was because one of them was ungentlemanly enough to film the encounter on his cell phone.</p>
<p>I think everyone would urge women to be careful around guys they don’t know that well, but the guys need to be careful as well.</p>
<p>EarlVanDorn, I am aware that a case was just thrown out at Berkeley.</p>
<p>The FBI says 8 percent of the accusers lie. ( I got this number from a study on how we treat accusers and how and why they act the way they do). </p>
<p>That would mean 92 percent don’t lie. </p>
<p>I’ve read among accusers who accuse an actual named person, rather than saying that some shadowy unknown criminal raped them, the false accusations are much less than 8%. They’re not zero, of course. That is, a false accuser is more likely in cases of alleged stranger rape than alleged acquaintance rape.</p>
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<p>I think I remember reading that the fraternity itself notified the police back in September (?), once they were informed by UVA of some of the details, and UVA also announced that it had referred the matter to the police. So the investigation may have been ongoing for some months now.</p>
<p>From some comments to an article I was reading, I was reminded about FERPA regulations, which I understand prohibit UVA from divulging any student enrollment information without a warrant. If Jackie is cooperating, there shouldn’t be much problem obtaining the warrant, I assume. If she is not, I don’t know whether an anonymous article in RS is a sufficient basis for obtaining one. Presumably, Jackie might also be identifiable via enrollment and employment records if someone made the effort to scrutinize and question lifeguards by year of matriculation.</p>
<p>I suppose the local and national Phi Psi alums are also anxious to have the case investigated, especially if they feel it is not true. I can only imagine the wrath that has been unleashed in that crowd, both towards its members if guilty, and towards Jackie and RS if not.</p>
<p>We also know that the rate of false reporting for rape is much lower than for theft or various other accusations.</p>
<p>I don’t know whether Jackie’s story is true. What is noteworthy though is the reaction of the frat members and other UVa students. The frat members gave up their charter immediately. If all of them though Jackie was a loonie tune, I seriously doubt they would. (Remember the frat was only vandalized AFTER that.) We have another UVa student, listed with name and year, complaining in the campus paper that dumping on the frat where the incident allegedly happened is unfair because such things happen at other frats too.</p>
<p>We have a 20+ year old case of a woman who was date raped at the same frat. She did report it immediately to someone in the administration. Nothing happened until a man trying to beat booze in AA wrote her a letter of apology for raping her as part of its 12 step program. When he was questioned, he revealed the victim was drugged and he was one of 3 men who raped her. (She only remembered one.) Because Va has no statute of limitations on rape, he was prosecuted. </p>
<p>This is also the school of Yeardley Love. We know now that George Huguely had physically attacked a teammate he thought was interested in her; had put his hands around Yeardley’s throat while drunk at a bar, and had attacked a traffic officer who tried to arrest him. We also know he got very, very drunk at a team social function the same day he killed Yeardley…and nobody did anything to restrain him.</p>
<p>None of this means Jackie’s story is true. However, it does suggest that UVa–as well as other colleges–has a serious problem and it needs to be addressed. </p>
<p>The reaction to Jackie’s story may have inspired a victim of a gang rape at another college to come forward.<a href=“http://www.northjersey.com/news/5-william-paterson-students-charged-in-sexual-assault-college-president-says-1.1143970”>http://www.northjersey.com/news/5-william-paterson-students-charged-in-sexual-assault-college-president-says-1.1143970</a></p>
<p>Jonri, thanks for the link. I see at William Peterson, they are releasing the names of the accused.</p>
<p>At William Paterson, the accused students have been arrested and charged with a crime. At UVA, no one has been charged with a crime. Nobody has any business releasing the names of the alleged rapists at UVa right now, until the story has been investigated more fully.</p>
<p>Yep…true…sorry about that.</p>
<p>“We also know that the rate of false reporting for rape is much lower than for theft or various other accusations.”</p>
<p>We don’t know this! In fact we know just the opposite. The false report rate for rape is unknown but is generally thought to be higher than for most other crimes. The best estimates are from eight percent to as much as 41 percent. It just depends on what the report is and how it is made. Often a story that is a lie will just sound fishy and demand extra investigation.</p>
<p>By the way, a friend of mine who was breaking up with a less-than-stable girl found himself the victim of a false assault claim that was right out of the movie Gone Girl. The only reason my friend didn’t have his whole life ruined was because he found out the girl had made an identical false charge against another boyfriend five years before. When I say identical, I mean identical, right down to the “then he dragged me down the staircase by my hair.” People lie all the time for revenge and to further their interests, and claims which seem highly improbable on their face demand at the very least a very thorough investigation before being accepted.</p>
<p>Last year a coed at Ohio University had public sex on Court Street. The next day she realized her reputation was ruined and cried “rape,” and the media, police and everyone else gave her the benefit of the doubt, even though photos taken of the blessed event showed her smiling like a Cheshire cat. In the end they put together film from about a dozen security cameras and actually had audio of the guy suggesting they stop with her going, “keep going.” The charges were dropped. But the deal was, she had a problem that could be solved by a rape claim, so she made a false rape claim. It happens all the time. What was irritating was that anyone even entertained the notion that it was rape with so much photographic evidence showing the opposite. It’s like of like this ridiculous Rolling Stone story, which simply isn’t believable. But some people seem to have the idea that they have to pretend to believe every single claim of rape, no matter how ridiculous.</p>
<p>@Krillies wrote: “re: post #425
The RS author could have also interviewed the Corner man who threw a bottle at Jackie’s face. I presume the Corner man is in jail for assault or were there no witnesses for the incident too?”</p>
<p>How naive of you. Last week a march was organized by some profs, and a large group of students and others joined in them in marching to Rugby Rd and the Corner area. A group of young males (notice how I didn’t use the term men, because they aren’t) shouted vulgar insults at the group (calling them the C word and Feminazis) then another group (maybe the same kids??) destroyed a memorial on grounds and threatened some of the marchers. A reporter and photographer were present and captured the entire thing but nobody is in jail for assault, despite witnesses. </p>
<p>EarlVanDorn
err… those examples are valid but don’t constitute a sufficient sample. Just because two things have happened doesn’t prove your point.
EarlVanDorn, you clearly have your opinion and won’t budge, but saying the rate of false claims for rape “is generally thought to be higher than for most other crime” is YOU think that, not scientists. It doesn’t even make sense considering the way being a rape victim is considered.
BTW, yes, by law, you’re expected to believe a victim until it’s proved no crime took place. This is the standard for every crime, even though, clearly, it’s not the one used for rape (as reported in the way rape is treated by law enforcement officers, by the delay in treating rape kits, etc.)
I don’t have the studies’ references by heart and I don’t have time to look it up, but we DO know there are fewer false claims for rape than for other crimes. Because fears of false claims were a big deal, the issue has been researched and it’s very clear that, if anything, rape is under-reported and that false claims have a lower incidence than other false claims across the board (in part due to the stigma attached to it - the person isn’t necessarily considered a victim, may not be believed, etc; depending on the person’s background the impact can be severe, issues of shame are important, etc. I am not sure what you’re trying to prove when you say that last YEAR there was ONE false rape claim at ONE university. I brought up the Clery Report and at Ohio University, for one false claim, there were 9 sex crimes that took place, including 8 in the college’s residential facilities. The year before was an off year, with 14 rapes/assaults, but a consistent 7 in the college’s residential facilities. Talk to any officer in charge of campus security and they’ll tell you they estimate that 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 sexual assaults are reported. So, 1 out of 9, or 1 out of 45, or 1 out of 90. So, between 11 and 1% of false claims at the university you chose as an example.
I do know that the generally accepted percentage is 2 to 8%, and the 41% (Kanin) is widely used to teach how research bias, small samples, and other factors, distort research findings (not to teach that there’s a wide discrepancy between the ways the topic is investigated - and also to teach how a “true” number can be unknown, but it doesn’t mean any number is correct.)
Yes, people lie all the time; they just happen to lie less often when it comes to rape.</p>
<p>@TV4caster Can you provide a link to the incident you are referring to?</p>
<p>Many states have degrees of criminal sexual conduct. I think one of the issues we face is that forcible sexual assault or rape can be one degree of criminal sexual conduct. I personally believe that rape, as criminally defined is under reported and more likely than not has a lower instance of false claims than what would be classified as inappropriate touching, coercion or would parallel some of the other classifications that states have adopted to define degrees of criminal sexual conduct and I believe those lesser levels of criminal behavior have a higher instance of false reporting but generally most of the studies have used the terminology “rape” and focused on that definition so it is absolute speculation on my part. </p>
<p>I’m on the record for thinking that crowds of women screaming at men and other PR stunts do not help the cause and can backfire very quickly. Imagine the step back it will be if we find out that any of the RS article was elaborated or worse made-up (although I do believe something happened to the young woman). Too many shades of the "potbangers’ at Duke.</p>
<p>MYOS1634, I mentioned the ONE false rape claim at Ohio University because it was so obviously to a casual news reader or Internet surfer that the woman had not been raped, and yet there were people who acted all offended at the suggestion that the claim was false.</p>
<p>There is really no need to discuss the percentage of false rape claims. I simply do not believe the story that Jackie told to Rolling Stone, whether that puts her claim in the one percent or 99 percent category.</p>
<p>I can be persuaded. There is something called evidence. Simply back up some of the facts in the story with more than a single-source claim. Show me that a Phi Psi junior was a lifeguard, a sophomore or freshman was in Jackie’s anthropology class, that Phi Psi indeed had a registered date party on Oct. 28, 2012, that the three friends who met Jackie agree for the most part with her story, or any other evidence that actually supports Jackie’s claim and I will be the first to say that I may be wrong or that I’m probably wrong.</p>
<p>If this story should turn out to be true, what I want more than anything is to hear Jackie’s friend explain why she suggested that Jackie should have just enjoyed her very brutal rape because it gave her the chance to have sex with bunch of “hot” Phi Psis. I just have a hard time believing that a woman at one of the country’s most elite universities would say that to one of her friends. But I suppose anything can happen.</p>
<p>@Krlilies:
<a href=“Hundreds protest at UVa; student says memorial to victims vandalized”>http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/local/hundreds-protest-at-uva-student-says-memorial-to-victims-vandalized/article_81bc9d24-7379-11e4-a91e-f70a4bc5767c.html</a></p>
<p>@Krillies wrote: “can you provide a link to the incident you are referring to?”</p>
<p>I posted the link a week or so ago in either this thread or the one that is something like “NYT: mishandling of rape at UVA”. Unfortunately I can’t find it now. It was either on CavalierDaily or NBC29, I believe. I am pretty sure it was CD because here is a link I found to the pictures that the photog took to accompany the story. I just don’t see the actual story.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cavalierdaily.com/gallery/faculty-protest”>Protest brings hundreds of Students, Faculty, Staff to Rugby & Corner - The Cavalier Daily - University of Virginia's Student Newspaper;
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<p>you can type a name into the UVA people search… I don’t remember what the quoted text here was in response too, but it is easy to find email addresses of anyone at UVA.</p>