Allow rising HS freshman to potentially overcommit herself to outside school ECs?

Parent Cafe
21

<p>I just wanted to cover another issue. </p>

<p>9th grade is for experimenting. There are some colleges which do not count 9th grade grades at all. There are many others at which they are highly discounted. So, this is the year to pile on the ECs if the KID wants to and see if they can stay afloat academically. If they can’t, then a MAJOR readjustment will have to be made for 10th grade. </p>

<p>Too often, IMO, parents restrict 9th grade activities because they are worried about grades. So, the kid does well, and the parent then agrees that the kid can take on additional ECs in 10th grade. At this point, the child may become overcommitted to ECs and grades will decline. Poor grades in 10th grade will hurt a LOT more than poor grades in 9th grade. Most colleges do look at “patterns” in grades and the kids whose grades improve as they advance in high school do better than kids with the same cumulative gpa whose grades declined over time–at least that’s my anecdotal experience. </p>

<p>Plus, when there ARE leadership positions or chances to advance in an EC, it’s usually the kids who were fully engaged in 9th grade rather than those who poured on the steam in 10th who are given the opportunities. </p>

<p>So, my advice would be to let the young lady try to do everything this year, and if it proves to be too much, change course in 10th grade. It takes a while for most kids to learn how to balance things and that learning is better done in 9th grade than 10th. Moreover, even if the kids don’t juggle well, they are less likely to resent restrictions when they tried and it didn’t work out than when parents step in before they’ve been allowed to try. </p>

<p>Just my opinion.</p>

22

<p>Good point jonri. I’ve seen kids have a wobbly start in high school because they aren’t involved in anything (not wanting to over commit), then they get in with the crowd of other kids who aren’t involved in anything.</p>

23

<p>Sacchi, I have been exactly where you are. My D has been a competitive dancer since 2nd grade. 10 hours per week, over 3 days. After 8th grade, her best friend in dance quit because her parents told her she could play HS sports or dance but not try to do both - they thought it would be too much while taking 5 honors classes. But my D said to me, “How can I choose between dance and HS sports if I’ve never played a HS sport? I don’t know what I’m choosing between.” So we let her try it, with the thought that she could always say to a college, “My frosh year I tried to do too much, and learned what my limits were.” We figured that sounded better than, “I was afraid to try to do everything that I wanted to do.” </p>

<p>D’s friend who quit dance tried out for the HS volleyball team and got cut. Then she ran for class office and wasn’t elected. She apparently had a lot of free time on her hands, because she ended up in court facing minor in possession charges.</p>

<p>D not only made the volleyball team and kept dancing, she also ran for and became a class officer. She earned her best grades during volleyball season, when she was busiest. However, she was under stress - at times a LOT of stress. And she was only able to make it all work because her dance teacher was VERY understanding, especially when she missed a LOT of dance during V-ball season. Her grades were not great - she had been a straight A student in 8th grade, and her freshman grades were all B/B-. However I think that was a function of taking too many (5) honors classes and dealing with some boyfriend & girl drama, rather than a result of too many EC’s. </p>

<p>Fast forward - D is finishing her junior year. She has cut back to 3 Honors classes, while continuing as a Class Officer plus adding a few more HS EC’s (Peer Leader, Peer Mentor, National Honor Society), but over these 3 years her priorities have changed. After this year’s recital she told the studio she was not returning for her senior year. She still enjoys dance, but there are only so many hours in the day and she really enjoys her high school activities. On top of that, she got tired of all the sacrifices she made for dance - she wants to go to the HS basketball games, and sleep in on Saturdays, for example. She didn’t think it was fair to the other girls on her dance team if she was never there for rehearsals, and that’s what was starting to happen.</p>

<p>So… I would tell you to consider a few things when making your decision:</p>

<p>1) Your D doesn’t seem to think she’ll want to do EC’s that are in her high school, but she may change her mind. She hasn’t had a chance to experience high school yet. I would encourage her to try to do at least one EC in the high school - it’s a great way to meet people, and to feel connected to the school. </p>

<p>2) Don’t worry TOO much if she tries dance, it doesn’t work and she has to quit after choreography starts. As long as she leaves at least 6 weeks or so before the first competition, they will have time to re-choreograph or fill in with an understudy. I wouldn’t let my D quit in the middle of competition season, though - that would be unfair to the other dancers.</p>

<p>My advice to you would probably be to let your D try to do it all and see how it goes. If it doesn’t go well, she’ll have to drop something - but it needs to be her choice as to what to drop. But be prepared- it is going to be harder than she thinks, and it may be stressful on all of you. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying to do it all, though!</p>

<p>Keep in mind that you know your D better than anyone. My D thrives on being busy. She HATES being bored. Her brother, on the other hand, needs 1-2 hours of “down time” per day or he becomes very over-stressed. He is a better student than D, but he could never handle all the activities she does - he says it would drive him nuts. </p>

<p>Good luck to her and to you!</p>

24

<p>I have to agree with what all the others said that if your D can handle the ECs and her hs courses then she should continue to do them all.</p>

<p>My DD (finishing jr year hs) rode horses since she was 8 years and and competed hunter/jumper. She also has been heavily involved in musical theatre and voice lessons since middle school. Last fall she decided on her own that she would give up riding horses because of her passion for the theatre and wanting to devote all of her free time to performing in musicals or preparing to audition for college next year. She is an excellant student in all APs and honors courses. Since she always did very well at school and was able to school work and activities we let her do all that she wanted. In the end she decided what direction she wanted to concentrate on for the remainder of hs and is following that path.</p>

25

<p>I think you have three jobs here:</p>

<p>1- enforcer of family health, safety and responsibility rules (sleep, meals, chores, not missing grandma’s birthday brunch if that’s a big deal, religious services if you care, etc.)</p>

<p>2- guardian of the family budget- helping her prioritize if need be when/if the financial crunch of all these commitments interferes with your ability to pay the bills, pay tuition for college, etc. If you aren’t socking money away for tuition now- you will be sorry later on!</p>

<p>3- Project manager of transportation, logistics, etc.- late night pick ups, weekend commitments in other cities, etc. Your car, your rules.</p>

<p>As long as you’ve made your boundaries and limits known, then I think it’s reasonable for a HS kid to make decisions about priorities and time mangement within those limits. If she decides that she can be a B student and participate in all the things she loves- that’s her call. If she wants to be an A student and disovers that dance is standing in the way- she’ll find a way to dump the dance. If you discover that keeping the horse is beyond your budget- then you need to explain your limitations (i.e. we’ve gone into debt to buy a house, we’re prepared to take on loans to help you pay for college, we are not able to take a second mortgage to pay for the horse).</p>

<p>I wouldn’t worry about the college admissions or EC business. Those things tend to sort themselves out. But enlist her help in making sure that your three jobs (enforcer, guardian, project manager) get done while she meets her own goals- and you’ll all be in a good place next year.</p>

<p>I have friends who feel severely victimized by their kids EC’s- they leave work and immediately begin a 5 hour odyssey to get everyone to and fro, dinner gets wolfed down in the backseat, parents don’t get to unwind after a stressful day at work since they’re downing Red Bull in order to be alert for the driving and drop off which lasts all evening. That’s not right either- kids need to understand that there are other family priorities besides their own interests and hobbies. But I don’t think parents get to pick what stays and what goes (unless your child has an interest which you simply cannot afford to support, or where the schedule interferes with your own work or safety.)</p>

26

<p>I have to present another view. When D started hs she was very busy with dance studio, travel soccer and youth group. She also took a challenging academic load. I was OK with no EC’s at school. What she and I soon found though was that even with many friends she lacked a certain “connection” to the school. By winter season she had joined the cheer team and it made a difference. Since then she dropped soccer and has changed her youth group focus to summer mission trips. She has stayed very involved in dance and got into some school EC’s including the dance team (which was very hard to get selected for).</p>

<p>In short , I would recommend that she do some sort of activity at the school, perhaps a club rather than a sport (less time commitment) or stage crew rather than acting since she’s likes theater.Just something to give her that connection.</p>

27

<p>She sounds like a fabulous kid–both smart and engaged. You should be proud.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t disparage the horse thing. A kid in my D’s school did a lot of riding, wrote her essay on the wisdom she had learned from the older women at her barn and is now at Yale.</p>

<p>I would take my cues from her. She may decide next year, once she’s seen high school to change some of her outside interests. </p>

<p>The overcommitting is a tough call. You may have to wait until you actually see some grade deterioration.</p>

28

<p>The other thing I want to point out is that my d had real problems with schoolwork when she didn’t have dance. When she was busy, she knew she had X hours to do her work, so she did. When she didn’t have dance (after recital, for example), and had all evening to do her work, somehow it was like pulling teeth to get it done. She hated it.</p>

29

<p>Thanks to everyone for their input. The key thing from the feedback that resonated with me is to let D be responsible for her own decisions, within the bounds of family limits. blossom’s post brought up some of the issues that have also weighed upon me. A too-busy, stressed kid also has too-busy, stressed parents who are driving the kid to and fro. (It was also good to hear that there are some other equestrians out there!)</p>

<p>I talked to the dance studio head last night to understand better the competition team time commitment, in terms of conventions and competitions.</p>

<p>H and I discussed everything last night. I realized that I’ve gotten overly caught up with the wanting to build an EC resume that I thought would look good to college admissions officers - with 4 years of commitment to the same in-school activities. It was good for me to be reminded that ECs don’t really matter that much in admissions, and in-school vs. out-of-school doesn’t really matter much, so might as well do what you love. And, as H said last night, it’s not like someone will look at D’s activities and think that she is a slacker. </p>

<p>So, we’re leaning towards letting her do the dance competition team, and having her try to get involved with one or two not too time consuming clubs at school, in addition to the school’s dance team. And just accepting the fact that her interests might change over time, and it’s OK if she doesn’t do the same activities for all 4 years. Cross country is out for freshman year - I told D that I don’t have the time and energy to deal with both cross country and dance competition on top of everything else, and she said that it was an easy choice for her to pick dance competition. </p>

<p>The goal of her in-school activities is more for building stronger friendships at school and having a sense of connection there, than for the college application resume. She will know almost nobody at the high school, because of strange school district borders and the special competitive admittance program that she will be in that draws from the entire district. Despite living only 5 minutes from her dance studio, it is in a different town and school district, and no girls from dance will go to the same high school. A couple of friends from the barn will eventually go to the same high school, but are a year younger, and so won’t be in any classes together, and won’t ride the same bus or anything.</p>

<p>The good news is that dance competitions and horse shows are at different times of the year, and won’t directly conflict. School dance team and studio dance classes will likely end up conflicting somewhat, as they are both heavy in the winter.</p>

<p>Anyway, thanks everyone for all of your guidance. I’ve still got one more night to completely decide, before the dance studio forms have to be turned in tomorrow. Then, a horse show Friday through Sunday!</p>

30

<p>

</p>

<p>I know that at least with my D’s dance studio, they are a lot more flexible with the high school girls than the younger girls. To be in Company, the younger girls have to compete all the types of dance that the company does…in high school, a girl can be in only one, or all of them…I don’t think they really want to be flexible - they have to be.</p>

31

<p>I wouldn’t worry about making friends in high school - you can make friends just as easily in your classes as you can in activities. I never did in school activities (well, for my first two years of high school, then I transferred to boarding school) and still had plenty of friends to hang out with during the school day/when I had time after school. </p>

<p>I didn’t do in school EC’s because of riding as well…not much time when you have your own horse and need to ride every day. Most days I’d be picked up from school with my neighbors who ride at the same barn and we’d be there until 6…while I suppose I could have tried out for a sports team at school, I would have been totally overwhelmed with riding + school sports + getting good grades.</p>

<p>I really don’t think that riding is some terrible EC to have that the admissions officers will look down on…if you spin it the right way in an essay, it shows a lot of dedication, passion, and hard work that people otherwise wouldn’t understand. EC’s are about following your passions…and if riding/dance are her passions, so be it. It’s kind of impossibly for me to justify breaking away from these activities just because “it won’t look good on a college application.”</p>

32

<p>My d’s dance studio was 40 minutes away; there were at least 10 closer to home (don’t ask). Only one kid from her high school went there; all the others were local to the studio. Guess what? She had two groups of friends - dance friends and school friends. It worked out well for her - when the drama in one group got too much, she had the other. And there’ always drama in high school!</p>

33

<p>Here’s an update: We decided to let D sign up for the dance competition team at the dance studio. She was happy. She did ask why I changed my mind after having said no earlier. (Trying to figure out her best strategy for the next time we disagree, I suppose.) Without mentioning CC I told her that I realized that it would be good for her to be more responsible for deciding for herself what she wanted to do and was capable of handling, within the bounds of what I though was workable for the family.</p>

<p>I didn’t mention posting on CC about her, since I think she would be self-conscious if she knew that she was being discussed online, even though anonymously. I’ve never told my S that I’ve occasionally posted about him either. I do occasionally mention at the dinner table CC posts that I’ve read. The whole family got a kick out of the “stupidest reason your kid didn’t apply to a school” thread - especially the ones about the squirrels, and not liking the tour guide’s shoes.</p>

34

<p>gadad wrote:</p>

<p>//Parents sometimes make the assumption that ECs are a zero-sum proposition - that any effort invested into them is effort that’s pulled away from academics. That’s not the case; academic motivation is its own phenomenon. Effort in schoolwork will be determined by that motivation and not by having extra unscripted hours in the day. On the other hand, having those extra hours scripted requires students to develop time management and planning skills that ultimately are great academic assets. I wouldn’t do anything to cool off a passion that’s already worthwhile and productive.//</p>

<p>I’m going to post a qualified dissent to this. Our son’s EC passion is music, and counting practice time, afterschool ensembles, and the intensive program he is enrolled in at a local community music center, he probably averages more than 4 hours a day on music. Since daily homework loads at his rigorous, competitive high school also routinely pass the 4-hour mark, something’s gotta give, and that something too often is sleep. </p>

<p>Yes, time management and planning skills may “ultimately” be “great academic assets,” but they don’t come overnight, and there is a cost involved in acquiring them. If we had slashed our son’s music ECs in half a couple of years ago, I am certain his GPA would be higher now–though of course it’s impossible to be sure just how much higher–because most of his academic difficulties have been obviously traceable to time issues and lack of sleep. No amount of motivation can add hours to the day or make exhausted synapses fire as efficiently as fresh ones.</p>

<p>I’m not necessarily saying that we should have cut the ECs. Music is his passion and his joy (even though he insists he’s not going to major in it!), and I am proud of the amount of energy he has poured into it and what he has achieved. Even with his less-than-stellar GPA, our son will still be admitted to some very good colleges, at one of which he will get an excellent education. But the assertion that there is never a tradeoff between heavy EC commitments and academic success does not ring true in light of our experience.</p>

35

<p>There is always a tradeoff, yes, but it’s not a strict one-to-one time tradeoff or something. Cutting that music EC in half does not mean that the extra time will be spent productively doing homework, or even having free time to relax or sleep.</p>

<p>I am curious though, at the 4-hour daily homework load that your son has. I ahve never had that much homework daily in my life, not in high school, certainly not in college, and the only time I ever spent doing more than 4 hours of homework a day was the late-night essay cram the day before it’s due. What sort of assignments (busywork I suspect) take 4 hours a day?</p>

36

<p>Well, to be accurate, he doesn’t have 4 hours of homework every day, or even average that much. The average is probably around 3 hours. But the peaks regularly get up into (and over) the 4-hour range, and scrambling to finish projects results in several all-nighters each year.</p>

<p>“busywork I suspect” LOL. So do I. There are many good things about his school, and I don’t want to sound like I’m trashing it, but I do think the homework load is artificially and needlessly heavy–for instance, assigning 30 math problems when 10 would get the concept across just as well, and maybe buy the kid an extra half-hour of sleep so he can understand tomorrow’s math lesson a little better. </p>

<p>The one undeniably good thing about it is that any kid who can survive the place with even a B average is likely to do very well in college.</p>

<p>But, I digress…I guess the point is that there is really no rule of thumb. You really have to know your school’s workload and your kid’s aptitude for time management, and weigh that against how much the EC’s matter to the kid, both intrinsically and in relation to his long-term goals. And know, too, how willing you are to be flexible in your academic expectations if it turns out that you’ve miscalculated and your kid has bitten off more than he can chew.</p>

37

<p>Honestly, once you’ve done enough homework problems to understand the concept, you really don’t need to do any more. Busywork does not prepare you for college, nor do pulling all-nighters. What would prepare a kid for college is learning how to learn the concepts the first time, in class. Then all they need to do is refresh that when it comes to be test time.</p>