Allow rising HS freshman to potentially overcommit herself to outside school ECs?

Parent Cafe
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<p>How risky is it to allow HS students to overcommit to outside school ECs? I'm worried that if D does all of the outside school activities that she wants to do, she won't have time for in-school ECs and homework (and sleep.) </p>

<p>D is about to finish 8th grade. (I've been following CC for the last few months for my 2010 S, and I've never posted about D before.) She works hard in school and gets all A's except for B/B+ in math. She will be in a competitive admittance HS program next year, which is inside of a regular (competitive suburban NJ) public HS, and will have 4 honors classes next year (everything but math). </p>

<p>She likes to keep busy and for several years her key activities have been dance and horseback riding, both of which are very time consuming, and over the years the time commitment has increased as she asks to do more and more. Along the way, she's dropped soccer and band, but last year added drama and the musical in middle school. Even though she had a small part in the musical, it was very time consuming, and with the addition of the musical, I felt like it was stressful and difficult for her to manage juggling all her activities, although she didn't complain and her grades didn't suffer. She loves dance, but to be honest, is not as good a dancer as some others. She does horseback riding competitions, and has done very well, earning some significant awards, and is VERY accomplished for her age. She rides or dances every day of the week, sometimes both. She gets upset when there is the inevitable occasional time conflict between activities and can't do EVERYTHING! Last fall she broke a bone in her foot and was sidelined from both dance and riding for two months, and was miserable and bored.</p>

<p>D and I are having our annual argument over how much dance she should take next year. (She always wants more and I always want less.) She is pushing hard to move from the dance studio's pre-competition team to the competition team next year, which involves a larger time commitment (9 hrs/wk over 4 days). I, on the other hand, would prefer that she not be on either team (although still dance 6 hrs/wk over 3 days), so that she can leave some room in her schedule for some activities at HS. She says that she's not very interested in many of the possible HS activities, and she wants to stick with what she is interested in. I'm not trying to push her into particular HS activities and want her to choose for herself, and I'm sure that she would end up finding some HS activities that she would love, if she had time to try them. She has expressed interest in the school's dance team, play, musical, and possibly cross country and the newspaper. </p>

<p>Her activities have not been chosen with college admittance in mind (or we certainly wouldn't have picked equestrian!), but neither do I want her to look bad to colleges because of little or no in-school activities.</p>

<p>So, do I let her decide what activities to do and how much she can handle? Or do I try to be the voice of reason and stop her from overcommitting herself? The key question right now is whether or not to let her do the dance competition team, which has to be decided soon. I've said no for weeks, but she is wearing me down.</p>

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<p>"D and I are having our annual argument over how much dance she should take next year. (She always wants more and I always want less.) She is pushing hard to move from the dance studio’s pre-competition team to the competition team next year, which involves a larger time commitment (9 hrs/wk over 4 days). I, on the other hand, would prefer that she not be on either team (although still dance 6 hrs/wk over 3 days), so that she can leave some room in her schedule for some activities at HS. "</p>

<p>It sounds like dancing is her passion, and I think you should allow her to pursue it as long as her pursuit doesn’t hurt her studies.</p>

<p>If she doesn’t want to do high school ECs now or later, that’s fine, too. There are many people who don’t do h.s. ECs because their passions are elsewhere. They still can have friends in high school.</p>

<p>I remember that a very nice, high achieving, well liked girl in my high school class wasn’t involved in school ECs because she was pursuing dance outside of school. I don’t see a problem with doing that.</p>

<p>I also think that kids learn how much they can take on by taking on what they want, and then seeing how things work out. The beauty of being a freshman is that there’s lots of room for trial and error. It’s the year of h.s. that colleges pay the least amount of attention to.</p>

<p>So, my vote goes for allowing her to be on the competition team.</p>

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<p>What NSM said.</p>

<p>While at an awards ceremony for highly-gifted kids, I got to talking with a number of parents. One of them said that her daughter took cello lessons, which her mom really liked because this is not something that came easily to her daughter. Cello was teaching her daughter how to really work at something to see improvement. </p>

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<p>And I love music, but am not as good a musician as many, many others. Still, I have sung with major orchestras/conductors/in well-known halls in the US and in Europe, and though I’m not an excellent musician by any means, I greatly enjoyed my accidental non-career in music; my life would be much poorer without such experiences.</p>

<p>So let her dance, I say, at whichever level she can reach!</p>

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<p>Over and over, I’ve heard from people who are successes in fields that they weren’t initially the best, but they were the ones who practiced the most, and that led to their becoming expert at what they were doing. This includes one of my acting teachers, who admits that there were many more talented people than he in his undergrad theater program. However, he worked very hard, and he’s the one who ended up with an ongoing major role in a Disney sitcom, and with guest appearances on shows like “Seinfeld.”</p>

<p>In his book "Outliers, Malcolm Gladstone says that to become expert at anything requires 10,000 hours of practice. The book is well worth reading.</p>

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<p>I’m going to take the counter side to this statement. Since your D is surely as good as you said she is, wouldn’t this be a plus to her application, since there are probably fewer accomplished equestrians than there are, say, soccer players? And a dancing equestrian? Sounds like this might stand out to an Ad Comm.</p>

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<p>But putting in 10,000 hours into an EC that she knows she will not pursue might not be in her best interest. Focusing EC hours on passions, particularly passions that test out future professional focus might be a better use of time. </p>

<p>Being well rounded is one thing, but pouring all one’s energy and time into something interesting, but not a passion to the detriment of other things might not be so good.</p>

<p>Life is about choices. Make them wisely</p>

<p>(and paying for riding and dance will zap your college money - with my kids I stress that cheap hobbies can be as rewarding as expensive ones. Two expensive ones - not a chance!)</p>

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<p>I agree: Let her dance. Why do you think she needs to do her ECs in school? The only reason I can think of is perhaps camaraderie. But I’m sure she has friends in her studio and friends in the equestrian scene… and she will have time to make more friends at school. Let her do what she loves to do.</p>

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<p>“But putting in 10,000 hours into an EC that she knows she will not pursue might not be in her best interest. Focusing EC hours on passions, particularly passions that test out future professional focus might be a better use of time.”</p>

<p>If she puts 10,000 hours into an EC, by default, that would have become her life and passion. We don’t know if that’s the choice she’ll make. For all we know, her interest in dance could lead to a career in physical therapy, orthopedics or nonprofit management.</p>

<p>Right now, no one – including she – knows what she’ll decide to do in the future or how anything she does now will connect with her career. </p>

<p>One of my high school friends who skipped college to become a professional dancer now – after a renowned dancing career – teaches at Princeton. One never knows what will end up happening in one’s life.</p>

<p>“Her activities have not been chosen with college admittance in mind (or we certainly wouldn’t have picked equestrian!)”</p>

<p>For the relatively few colleges that use ECs to make admissions decisions (and those tend to be places like HPYS, which have such an overabundance of high stat applicants that the schools can pick and choose from among those students to create an active, diverse campus), being an equistrian would make one stand out in admissions far more than if one pursued a more typical EC.</p>

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<p>I don’t think colleges care whether ECs are done in or out of school. Not doing ECs in school has some disadvantages - your GCs are less likely to know who you are, you are less likely to get to know fellow students (though perhaps some of them dance or ride?), you are less likely to know teachers in school outside the classroom. That said, I am a big believer in pursuing your passions, wherever they logically take place. (My son spent a lot of time messing around with computers and I believe the time served him well.)</p>

<p>BTW one of my college roommates was a passionate dancer - she petitioned to make her own major which combined dance performance with dance history. She is now an English professor specializing in theater and dance history.</p>

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<p>Give it a year (or even two) - she might have a totally different opinion about HS activities. Right now HS is a totally uncharted territory for her, but as she makes new friends, she will figure out what she’ll want to do.</p>

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Yes. This is the time in her life when she can start making those choices while she has a safe place to land. And it gives her one less thing to blame/hate you for!</p>

<p>If you’re really worried about the time commitment (my d danced 14 hours/week during high school with a 40 minute commute each way, so I understand the conflict), have some benchmarks. For example: “If we find that you are doing X many hours of homework 2 times/week so that you don’t get to sleep until after Y o’clock, we may have to cut down.” “If your grades suffer . . .” etc. That way she knows from the get-go what your expectations are.</p>

<p>The fact that she might not become a dancer is irrelevant. My d chose a college that doesn’t have a good dance program, but has several student run dance groups. She dances with them, and keeps that art in her life. It’s still her passion even though it will never be her life’s work. It enriches her life, and that’s what counts.</p>

<p>Doing HS ECs also is irrelevant. My d did 2 ECs in high school - dance club and NHS. She did the musical when she was a freshman and decided she didn’t have time for it so didn’t do it again. She was admitted to a number of top schools and loves where she’s going.</p>

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<p>I totally understand what you mean. HS workload will be much more than Jr.High. How about join school dance team, this way, she can still enjoy dancing, fullfill a course and also counts as EC. My DD does the same, always wants more and I always want less. After the 1st year, it may change. She will realize the social life is very important, too.</p>

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That assumes three things:
(1) The high school has a dance team (ours doesn’t);
(2) The dance team counts as a class; and
(3) The daughter can make the dance team.</p>

<p>I’m sure she has to commit to her studio’s competitive team prior to the high school dance team auditions. What if she doesn’t make it at the high school but has already given up her spot at the studio? I know my d would have held it against me for making her give up a bird in the hand.</p>

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<p>DD is graduating from HS this week! She has danced and owned a horse for the past 6 years. She also worked at her Dance Studio as a receptionist for the past two years. Yes, she was not involved in a lot of HS EC’s. She had lots of close friends from schools all over due to her dance. Many of the girls have danced with her for years. She has been there since she was 4. She will never be a professional dancer and chose not to compete with her horse.<br>
Yes it was expensive and it forced her to eliminate some HS ECs. Our experience was that what she gained in terms of her own happiness, self confidence, independence was priceless.<br>
Some of her friends danced and tried to do HS theater or cheerleading, etc. It didn’t always work. They were not able to miss too many dance classes and still participate in the annual recital out of fairness to the other dancers.
If her heart is in the competitive dance, let her do it but point out to her that she likely will have to give some other things up.</p>

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<p>Parents sometimes make the assumption that ECs are a zero-sum proposition - that any effort invested into them is effort that’s pulled away from academics. That’s not the case; academic motivation is its own phenomenon. Effort in schoolwork will be determined by that motivation and not by having extra unscripted hours in the day. On the other hand, having those extra hours scripted requires students to develop time management and planning skills that ultimately are great academic assets. I wouldn’t do anything to cool off a passion that’s already worthwhile and productive.</p>

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<p>A couple of comments:</p>

<p>Dance -whether school or outside company - helps girls develop great organizational skills. My D has been keeping track of multiple costumes and multiple costume pieces (earrings! gloves! hats! chokers! tights! shoes!) since 4th grade. She’s the one child in the family who never has to be reminded to bring homework, permission slips, etc. to school.</p>

<p>As for the “10,000” hours…probably too late for that. To get in your 10,000 hours by 14 or 15, you need to practice like gymnasts do - 30-36 hours a week. Shawn Johnson managed this while attending regular high school, but most kids who practice anything that many hours are homeschooled, or attend private academies. (Note that at Nationals last year we chatted with parents of awesome dancers from Canada whose Ds go to regular school and then dance from 4 pm to 10 pm six days a week. I wouldn’t recommend that, but they sure were good!)</p>

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<p>Thanks for all of the feedback so far. It’s given me a lot to think about, and discuss with H before deciding. </p>

<p>HS has a dance team in the winter sports season, performing at basketball games. It is not a class, but practices after school. I don’t know any more than that, although I would be surprised if it was so competitive that she wouldn’t get in. S attends a different HS school in the same district, but knows nothing about dance team (and refuses to ask girls he knows who are in it!) D wants to join school dance team, in addition to the dance studio classes/competition team. Winter is a good time for a school activity since equestrian activities are less during that period - no horse shows in NJ in the dead of winter. </p>

<p>I’m concerned that school will be much harder in HS than in middle school, and D will have a much more challenging course load than she has ever had before. I’m also worried that it would be hard to back-off mid-year if it seemed to be too much, since dropping out of the dance studio competition team would have a negative impact on the other dancers, after the competition dance numbers are choreographed. </p>

<p>About equestrian and college admittance, I once read (wish I remembered where), that for college admissions you should let your kid follow whatever his/her passion was, as long as it wasn’t equestrian, since it could rub admissions officers the wrong way, because it is an expensive activity. It is expensive - I definitely feel the impact on our budget since we bought a horse two years ago.</p>

<p>I have a co-worker who believed that his daughter did less well in college admissions than expected a few years ago because she had no in-school ECs. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not, but it has worried me. Glad to hear that most CC parents aren’t too concerned about it. Despite a wide range of activities and good grades in middle school, she wasn’t accepted to the NJHS because of lack of “leadership”. (That I know for sure, because the advisor questioned her skeptically about whether or not her membership on the pre-competition dance team would count as leadership, and then she didn’t get in.)</p>

<p>At this point, D has absolutely no idea what her college major or career path will be, which is fine. I think it is pretty safe to say that she won’t be a professional dancer, however. She was very shy as a young child, and dance and riding (and performing and competing) have really given her a lot of self-confidence and discipline.</p>

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<p>My Son applied to eight colleges and was admitted to all eight with merit aid. To this day I have absolutely no idea whether his ECs had any impact in his admissions. We needed the merit aid to be able to afford a private school, so his grades/scores were above the top 25% of applicants at all the schools to which he applied. Because of this, I bet his ECs had nothing to do with his admissions. (I do know a boy [with fantastic grades and scores] who was admitted ED to Duke with zero ECs.)</p>

<p>The moral of the story is to do the ECs you love, because there’s a good chance they will have no impact on college admissions.</p>

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<p>Dance is SO GOOD for their self-confidence. When I was between the ages of 11 and 16, I wanted to crawl under a rock most of the time. My dancer daughters have never gone through that incredibly awkward geeky stage. You see some of those junior high aged dance company girls in real life and they’re skinny and have braces and their ears stick out, but they carry themselves with incredible confidence!</p>

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<p>missypie, have you got a spy camera aimed at my house?</p>

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<p>“About equestrian and college admittance, I once read (wish I remembered where), that for college admissions you should let your kid follow whatever his/her passion was, as long as it wasn’t equestrian, since it could rub admissions officers the wrong way, because it is an expensive activity. It is expensive - I definitely feel the impact on our budget since we bought a horse two years ago…I have a co-worker who believed that his daughter did less well in college admissions than expected a few years ago because she had no in-school ECs.”"</p>

<p>Anything that looks like, “We’re lucky rich people who’ve spoiled our kid” could rub admission officers the wrong way. But, in most cases, ECs don’t matter at all when it comes to admission. If your D is doing community service (maybe there’s something related to dance or horses that she could be doing) or working to help pay for her equestrian experiences, that would not only help build her character, but also help make it clear that she’s not a spoiled rich kid. I imagine she has some time in the summer to do something like this. The character building aspect of it is, I think, even more important than impressing admissions officers. It also seems fair for her to share some of the cost of such an expensive hobby.</p>

<p>Both of my sons main ECs were things outside of school. Older S had no ECs in school after being a bench warmer on the freshman year soccer team. Still, he got excellent merit aid related to his EC – volunteering for a community newspaper. </p>

<p>Younger S’s merit aid probably also was related to his EC, which was a community-wide youth community service program.</p>

<p>I think the fact that my kids were deeply involved in ECs outside of school made them stand out in a good way in admissions. Each also submitted an extra letter of recc related to their EC.</p>