<p>admission at many elite schools, not just the Ivies. Looking at statistics on parchment.com and elsewhere for the 2011 entering class. Lots of these applicants have GPAs over 3.8 (UW) as well. Seems like you really do need a hook to get admitted to some of these schools. Heard M.I.T. and Harvard have many 2400 SAT applicants they reject every year. Disheartening, to say the least.</p>
<p>I think that because you have more and more kids practicing and retesting that you have more kids with higher stats.</p>
<p>Also, since schools are now super-scoring, you have more kids with higher stats.</p>
<p>When the elites can only offer X seats, and yet 10X are applying, well…</p>
<p>^I think the SAT scores are curved such that the medium centers around 500. I don’t think it is the case that more and more students have higher scores, but rather that more and more high stats students are applying to more elite schools due to the ease of common app and the breaking down of “only looking locally” mindset.</p>
<p>Totally disagree ^^. My son had amazing stats, wonderful essays --that some adcoms wrote emails to him about in February (reading application crunch time)-- and recommendations, terrific ECs, but he was missing the one thing that made him stand out: a hook. He wasn’t URM, or an athelete, or a legacy. He didn’t come from an UR-state, or have a woeful childhood. Even if he he had all these wonderful aspects to his profile, those elite schools are looking for one thing he lacked: a hook. Pure and simple.</p>
<p>That is correct - the sat is curved and once you get to about 2210 you are in the 99th percentile. Its the world, not the test scores, that have changed. the Internet has made the world so much smaller and social changes have made women, rual kids that used to stay on the farm, working class kids that 40 years ago worked in the mines or shop with their dad, players in the college game. And they are so much more ambitious and knowledgable than my peers 30 years ago. When I was in high school, we had to had write the applications, and recommendations weresent one by one by mail. It was a hassle, and we had virtually no information about colleges except for the uc’s (im from cali) in our backyard. almost no one applied outside of California – now my kids have applied to lacs schools all over the country.</p>
<p>Seeing kids at child’s school getting into very top schools with around 3.8 GPAs and 2100 and up, a small handful of AP courses, and very ordinary uninspiring ECs. Their hook? Just guessing but all I can see is this: being Canadian from top private school, and not needing financial aid (especially at schools that are need blind for Americans only).</p>
<p>Though I have to say I did a count the other day. Of my large network (mostly professor moms at US schools, all of whom when to top graduate programs for their PhD, and who are now also high income earners), every single one of their kids has gotten into a great school. In some cases legacy played a role, but I can’t see other hooks that I’m aware of (it’s definitely not sports or URM). </p>
<p>I was led to believe from years on CC that it was such a tiny probability crap shoot yet if i had just focused on my network, I would have had an entirely different viewpoint. It does make me pause.</p>
<p>And Limabeans, I really feel your pain. I think we all do.</p>
<p>Why are you surprised? There are more than enough kids at that level that they could fill elite schools several times over, and there’s nothing about kids at that level that suggests that they should automatically be “more worthy” than kids who are a bit below (but still more than capable of doing the work). Universities aren’t looking for “smartest” per SAT scores - they are looking for those who will contribute most to university life overall.</p>
<p>Trend toward more kids applying to the same 10+ colleges. Colleges and universities, especially private ones generally do not increase seats to keep up with demand.</p>
<p>It’s been the way the OP describes for quite a few years now.</p>
<p>Two suggestions:</p>
<p>Students who seriously want to compete for spots at the very top universities need to do something special to distinguish themselves, in addition to earning top grades in rigorous classes and having excellent test scores.</p>
<p>Alternatively, students can just decrease their aspirations a bit. There are plenty of fine colleges and universities that would be thrilled to accept kids with top GPAs and SAT/ACT scores, even if the students are ordinary in every other respect. They just aren’t the top ten schools in the country.</p>
<p>I agree with Pizzagirl. Elite universities know that applicants with over 2200 SATs and 3.8 UW with 5 APs or more will be able to thrive academically. Their institutional needs will drive who they accept after that point (and sometimes a bit below, with tremendous talent, hooks, etc). Colleges get to compose their classes, and if they judge URM, geographic and economic diversity, or football talent, or even superstar celebrity/business connections desirable–in moderation–those stellar applicants will get the tip. </p>
<p>Seems much of this is beyond a student’s control, which is frustrating. The best advice to such a non-tipped student would be to initiate something, devote time to their passion, win awards, do research, seek to show dedication and drive and initiative beyond the norm. That appears to be valued as well.</p>
<p>x-posted with Marian, with whom I also agree.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, not really, or I guess, only if you mean “super elite” schools.</p>
<p>For the class of 2011, 1.65 million kids took the SAT. The eight Ivy League schools admitted about 16,000 freshmen. Even allowing for the fact that some of those freshmen surely took the ACT and not the SAT, the top 1% would barely fill the Ivy League alone - to say nothing of MIT, Stanford, Chicago, and that place on the Chicago North Shore, what’s it’s name now?</p>
<p>I just took a look at the last 3 pages of the UPenn ED acceptances here on cc, totalling 26. I looked at all acceptances, not just 2250 and over.</p>
<p>3 submitted ACT scores: 31, 33, 35
23 submitted SAT scores : 2010 thru 2340</p>
<p>Only 6 of the 26 had hooks. 2 are AA and 4 are legacys. That leaves 20 that had NO hook. 11 of the 20 non hooked applicants are Asian, the other 9 white. This small sample definitely goes against all of the moanings of multiple cc threads regarding elite college admissions.</p>
<p>GA2012MOM, it’s not surprising that the kids you describe got accepted.</p>
<p>What is surprising and disconcerting to many people is that other kids with comparable qualifications are rejected – and not just from Harvard but also from UPenn and other schools of similar selectivity.</p>
<p>None of those 26 kids who got into UPenn could count on getting in. Some got lucky, yes, but it was not a sure thing.</p>
<p>I agree that it is disheartening that so many qualified applicants don’t get into many of their top choices, but as PG and many others have pointed out there just aren’t enough seats. What I found interesting about my small sample was that it went against the popular cc outcry that you need a hook to get in and that asian applicants face discrimination in admissions.</p>
<p>While I agree that moaning is pointless and we really have no notion of the reasons why aparticular student is accepted, merely posting self reported acceptance statistics is particularly meningless, especially without application statistics. I think that while it is reasonable to chide people for virulent complaints months after a decision, disappointment at a result and second guessing is normal in a time period proximate to the event. I haven’t read a single person on this thread bellyaching about a urm taking their spot</p>
<p>I don’t think any valid conclusions can be drawn from a sample size of 26 self reported acceptances drawn from a skewed population of people posting on one internet chat site.</p>
<p>Cross posted with bovertine.</p>
<p>No guarantee is the name of this game!
True, but it’s still a crap shoot. My son starred in major theatre productions as the main man, was an Eagle Scout, an EMT, won awards in several national and state science fairs and debate teams (“We The People”), and had a patent. Even so, rejected from the ivies. Fortunately he’s a well adjusted kid who loves his school, but not sure what else he could have done. Without a hook, acceptence wasn’t going to happen.</p>
<p>GA2012MOM, thanks for looking through all of UPenn acceptances, but you never really know what made the difference. Could have been “First Violin” or some other amazing talent.</p>
<p>In these discussions there are at least two factors which are rarely/never discussed:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Some elite colleges/universities have a maximum limit of applicants they take from a given region, school district, and each high school. </p></li>
<li><p>Some of those high stats applicants may have written essays which showed their interests/personalities may not be the best fit for a given institution or worse…wrote uninspired mediocre essays which conveyed to adcoms that the applicant may not have had the ability or the willingness to put in a good faith effort. Several HS classmates and neighbors’ college-aged kids ended up getting sunk for this very reason despite tippy-top SAT scores, sky-high GPAs, and taking the most demanding courses at their respective high schools. Conversely, writing an outstanding essay which conveys not only great fit with a given institution, but also demonstrates great writing skills and the ability to convey the student’s personality, intelligence, and perspectives in a fresh inspiring manner can sometimes override an otherwise average/marginal applicant.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Why is it so disheartening? Kids with those statistics can get into any number of outstanding schools. They are by no means denied a great education; they just can’t count on admission to schools that turn away more than 90 percent of their applicants. Anyone with a 2250 SAT score who wants an exceptional college education is just about guaranteed one, assuming he or she has a thoughtful, strategic college search plan and assuming he or she is motivated to learn. Ivy admissions are a crapshoot for even the most statistically well qualified, as another poster suggested. Congratulations to anyone who does get in. And for everyone else: Make your choice and then commence to get the very best education you can, wherever you land.</p>