<p>Bottom line: there is no good reason to deny people the right to marriage, gay or not. Not one. </p>
<p>52% of California voted based upon religious beliefs, false logic, fearmongering, brainwashing, and apprehension for the unconventional.</p>
<p>And this is why I now doubt democracy.</p>
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<p>Why? Because people voted?</p>
<p>Democracy is difficult when you are talking about minority civil rights. Just look at the the voting statistics when interracial marriage was made legal. The general public can be bigots sometimes so that’s why we have courts!</p>
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<p>Yes. colboy has already explained.</p>
<p>The founding fathers themselves doubted democracy in relation to minority rights. The public tends to bigoted and selfish. Why do you think there are entities in the government, like the court and the Senate, that are difficult for people to access? The problem with California is that people have access to every branch of our government and thus can pass something as atrocious as Prop 8. </p>
<p>If the whole country ran on a direct democracy interracial marriage and segregation would all still exist. Women would still not be able to vote in some areas. </p>
<p>What makes this case especially infuriating is how involved religion became. You thought people were illogical and prejudiced before religion, just wait 'till their gods and saviors get involved. Minorities don’t stand a chance and the majority is too blinded to give a damn.</p>
<p>People should not have even had the vote on this one.</p>
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<p>Wow. I’m just flabbergasted. While I had my jaw dropped on the floor and my eyes gasping for oxygen, I believe I read your saying that “government entities are difficult for people to access for a reason” and that it’s correct to withhold rights from citizens…</p>
<p>It’s just so elitist for ANYONE to think that the American people can’t make their own decisions…how could anyone dare? The American people are educated people capable of deciding our own laws, thank you very much.</p>
<p>What if the public is “bigoted” and “selfish”? It is still the public. They are the majority for a reason. Just because their are morally incorrect does not mean they don’t have the right to put into action their values. That goes against everything that America stands for. It is true that the USA is a republic and not a democracy, but still. The more government controls people, the less freedom and liberty people have. You can see where the road is headed.</p>
<p>And I REALLY doubt your accusations. If I remember correctly, a lot of people were against race-based segregation. The Civil Rights Movement, I believe it’s called? Your examples…meh. Women stood up and people supported. Was there ever a law that did not allow interracial marriage? Oh well.</p>
<p>B Man 22, you’re assuming that all the American people eligible for voting are educated people who are making informed decisions based on logic and reason. I would love it if that were true, but unfortunately it isn’t. Many voters have no political knowledge whatsoever, and I’m sure you know that.</p>
<p>Although I agree that the public should definitely have some say in our government, allowing a bigoted public to impinge upon civil rights because of fear seems ridiculous to me. As a said earlier, it really bothers me that this law was passed largely due to religious beliefs. Believe in whatever god(s) you want, but please leave them out of our government.</p>
<p>I’m going to apologize in advance for my wall of text.</p>
<p>You seem to mistake me for someone that doesn’t trust Americans to govern themselves at all. Americans have proved themselves perfectly capable plenty of times. But there is a line. We pride ourselves in our democracy, but our founding fathers knew that it was possible to have too much of a good thing.</p>
<p>If you were to assume I don’t trust Americans to legislate gay marriage, you’d be right. This is an issue that involves so many prejudices. Democracy only works when people are thinking clearly and, ideally, in the bests interests of the whole. These prejudices, such as societal taboos against gays and religion, undermines the logic this system depends on. Once this happens, it basically becomes mob rule. Too many people voted with their Bibles and their weak stomachs, when we should be voting with our heads.</p>
<p>In addition to these outside factors, we’re talking minority rights here. If you’re going to talk about whats “American” and what’s not, I’d counter and say Prop 8 was what was really Un-American. Democracies tend to favor the majority, but America isn’t just about “majority rules.” It’s about equality and freedom for all. When majority rules, the minority has to just suck it up. But there is a point where it becomes excessive and this country is no longer what it promises to be. That is Un-American.</p>
<p>Also, even though Prop 8 did not specifically violate any laws of separation of church and state, it’s a no brainer that this effort was spearheaded by religious institutions. 85% of Christians voted for it and 85% of non-Christians did not. That really says something about where people were siding here. In my own experience, most people who voted for this did so for no other reason then their “religion is against it.” That is Un-American. People did not come to America for religious freedom only to have others’ religious laws imposed on them. We have separation of church and state for a reason and it wasn’t so that they can be bypassed by the people causing the problem.</p>
<p>I find it disappointing that you think the majority can rule themselves whether they are morally unjust or not; that they are always educated enough to govern themselves. This is, unfortunately, a very idealistic and naive mentality. Do you understand what that would mean if we could just have whatever way we wanted? Think about human nature for a second here. A bunch of kids on a playground with no teacher aren’t going to look out for the nerds. A bunch of people on a deserted island aren’t going to look out for the hungry. Someone has to look out for those minorities and we know damn well, as we’ve proved throughout our history, that the public isn’t going to do it. We can’t govern ourselves all the time and we definitely can’t be controlling the rights of the minority. It’s ironic that you claim the government is what is preventing our freedom when, in the case of Prop 8, it was clearly people that were limiting themselves. Well, the people they didn’t like anyway. </p>
<p>Listen, I don’t like the idea of government takeover any more than you do. But mob rule is just as scary and that’s the direction we’re headed if we keep passing things like this.</p>
<p>As for my “accusations,” if a lot of people were against race-based segregation, why, then, didn’t our glorious democracy do something about it? Why did it have to take a Supreme Court order to finally put an end to it? If the majority really wanted segregation gone, they could have done it. Interracial marriage was indeed banned in almost every state until another Supreme Court order put an end to that. To the credit of some states, womens’ suffrage was approved in some places, but it wasn’t until the federal government made it mandatory that women everywhere in this country had the vote. And it was a long struggle too that passed by the House with a mere one vote.</p>
<p>@WCF: Thank you.</p>
<p>Thanks for the reply.</p>
<p>Let me make it clear: I am completely against Proposition 8. </p>
<p>But what I am worried about is what you were saying. Especially the government undermining the people. You bring up many valid points that I can’t disagree with. </p>
<p>Let’s look at direct democracy though. One of the points I have to argue about is how you believe many Americans are uneducated. While partially true, it does not define most of the American people. I think it’s safe to say that most people support gay marriage; those who oppose it, are like you say, religious fringe extremists. With direct democracy, we could theorectically end the discussion of gay marriage on a vote. Very possible.</p>
<p>“It’s ironic that you claim the government is what is preventing our freedom when, in the case of Prop 8, it was clearly people that were limiting themselves. Well, the people they didn’t like anyway.” Despite my approval of what I said, let me just point out something here. Freedom is a double-edged sword; it can give and take freedom. Just as homosexuals have the right to marriage, so do anti-homosexuals have the right to bar them from marriage. </p>
<p>My point is that the process of undermining the people can never be a good thing. What was one of the causes of the American Revolution? The motherland’s consistent taxation of the colonies as well as asserting their right to do it (even against colonial disapproval) with the Declaratory Act. </p>
<p>Anyways, thanks again for the great discussion.</p>
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This is false. In most polls, a slim majority opposes gay marriage. It’s changing pretty quickly, though.</p>
<p>About interracial marriage:
[File:US</a> miscegenation.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_miscegenation.svg]File:US”>File:US miscegenation.svg - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>The Supreme Court forced a bunch of states to allow it in 1967. Alabama didn’t repeal the non-longer-enforced law until 2000.</p>
<p>If the civil rights movement had been left to referendum there would still be segregation today.</p>
<p>I understand why you would be suspicious of government intervention. It’s odd to say that, in a time when the government is absolutely massive, that the government needs to be one controlling people. I just feel like for this issue specifically, they should have. </p>
<p>Prop 8 was direct democracy. They took it to the people and they voted directly, passing it by a mere 52% (which…imo, is not a good majority). </p>
<p>I would actually agree with you that Americans are generally educated. To say anything else would just be cynical. But I think Prop 8 was a special case. </p>
<p>It was spearheaded by religion. Now, religion is a personal part of many people’s lives, even the educated ones. But the problem is that a lot of people simply don’t challenge it. If their religion says something is wrong, then they will blindly follow without question. If their church says something is immoral, then they will agree for fear of going against their own spiritual doctrine. Their religion is something they love and it is very hard for them to challenge this. Already, it seems unfair to have to put this to a vote.</p>
<p>The same thing goes for non-religious prejudices. I explained in my last post the case of minority prejudice. Even the educated can have this irrationality. Woodrow Wilson, an otherwise intelligent president, was widely accused of being a racist. He was likely a product of his time just as supporters of Prop 8 are a product of ours. </p>
<p>It really is a double whammy that religion and minority prejudice went against gay marriage. Both undermine people’s thinking, even those that would otherwise be educated people. I knew plenty of otherwise intelligent people who supported Prop 8 for the sake of their own religion. This just furthers my beliefs that everything about Prop 8 was wrong - everything from the morality of it to the way it was legislated.</p>
<p>Yes. Freedom is a double-edged sword. That’s why we have these discussions though; to determine what the best option is. What is more important, the freedom for a minority to attain equality or the freedom for the majority to strip them of that right? I think the answer is obvious; society has no need for the latter “freedom.”</p>
<p>Doesn’t everyone thinks it’s crazy that people waste their time voting on this stuff? It blows my mind that anyone, anywhere, religious or not, cares if two guys *<strong><em>. And that’s what this is. Has nothing to do with legal this or that- people hate gay people and want them to be non-existant to them. I don’t care if it offends your religion. Maybe you *</em></strong>ing hatred towards gay people offends me. I don’t make your beliefs illegal, do I? Are you so hopelessly in need of a system of control that you can’t think for yourselves?</p>
<p>It amazes me that someone will teach their kids that homosexual people are unnatural, but that war is necessary. I’ve never sat around and thought “Wow, somewhere, someplace on earth, some guy has his ***** in another guy’s anus. ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHH!” It’s not a big deal. Can we get back to worrying about starving people, people killing other people, wars, big corporations and forms of imprisonment around the world now? Or is Ellen Degeneres’ choice to scissor still keeping you up at night?</p>
<p>Thank you for the bluntness SkepSkap. I really wish people had something better to do than to go ape over other people’s business. Now we’re all caught up in an issue that shouldn’t have been an issue in the first place.</p>
<p>Living in such a brainwashed, conservative town, Prop 8 was a huge issue here. It was up there with the presidential election! You saw a “Yes on 8!” on every other yard! I wouldn’t be surprised if it had surpassed the presidential race itself! </p>
<p>The day after Prop 8 passed was especially infuriating. The teacher was reading the results of the night’s elections to the class and when he said that Prop 8 passed, little girls started jumping up and down for joy and screaming as if Jesus himself had come down to save them all. I want to ask these people do you have any idea what you’ve just done? Of course they don’t. But their church tells them it’s right and the Bible tells them it’s right and that voice in their head tells them it’s right so, to them, it must be right!</p>
<p>You know people have stooped to another low when they celebrate the stripping of another group’s rights (Mormons declared it a holiday…). And then they go on to say it’s the righteous and moral thing to boot! They’re so happy that those evil homosexuals can’t invade their churches and steal their property anymore. You know, cause that totally would have happened. It’s disgusting. It really is.</p>
<p>During that election I was monitoring the results on the internet. When the counting was over I practically cried. I am not gay, but I identify as queer. I am in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, though. It’s a strange world of not identifying with heterosexuals, but not quite identified with LGBTQ people either. I was so sad for everyone who is not straight. It didn’t help that Arkansas and Florida were being jerks about the rights of non-heterosexuals, too. The LGBTQ community was so thrilled during the brief time same sex marriage was legal and then they lost their rights again. </p>
<p>How come the proponents of “religious freedom” don’t care about the religious freedom of religious institutions who want to marry people of the same sex. Why no respect for Wiccas, Buddhists, or the many mainstream religious churches that would gladly accept same sex couples? Oh, because they’re not yours so they don’t get their religious freedom. It’s all about your religious freedom and what your church wants. </p>
<p>Another aspect of the Prop 8 campaign was claims that schools would be educating children on homosexuality. People were afraid of their children learning about homosexuality. I’m not quite sure of the rationale. Same sex marriage didn’t mandate a gay sex curriculum that I know of. And even if homosexuality was added to a reasonable part of the curriculum, say sex education where it would be nice if it was mentioned, I don’t see the problem anyway. Did people think their child is never going to learn about the bees and the bees? Prop 8 proves the stupidity of Californian parents.</p>
<p>I like how people against same sex marriage like to claim that it’s their right to oppose it and marriage isn’t a right and how we should respect other peoples opinions. I’ll give you that you can oppose same sex marriage all you want but it’s wrong to put your opinion into legislation. I will say, I respect the opinions of someone who wants to legislate their opposition to same sex marriage as much as they respect the rights of the minority they are hell bent on oppressing. Saying marriage isn’t a right is pretty easy when you’re the majority who has the privilege to marry who you want to. Try taking your heterosexist blinders off. The world is not heterosexual, gender binary, nor is our sexuality unchanging. No one orientation or identification is more valid than the other. </p>
<p>Speaking of heterosexist, that’s a term for people who don’t like gay people. “Heterosexism is a term that applies to negative attitudes, bias, and discrimination in favor of opposite-sex sexuality and relationships. It can include the presumption that everyone is heterosexual or that opposite-sex attractions and relationships are the norm and therefore superior. Even though people of any sexual orientation can hold such attitudes and bias, heterosexist discrimination ranks gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals as second-class citizens with regard to legal and civil rights, economic opportunities, and social equality in the majority of the worlds jurisdictions and societies.”</p>
<p>[Heterosexism</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosexist]Heterosexism”>Heterosexism - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>I know, it’s Wikipedia, but whatever.</p>
<p>Now you guys who hate LGBTQ people have a term all your own! You’re not homophobic, you’re heterosexist! It’s nice to have a term that conveys your disdain for a particular group of people without implying a fear of them. The promised land has finally come!</p>
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<p>Really, the entire Prop 8 movement was based on nothing but bigotry and religion. I consider myself a middle of the road guy, so when I see an issue where no argument of the opposing side makes any sense whatsoever, I know something is up (this is the only time that’s ever happened). Unlike virtually every other issue out there, nothing Pro-Prop 8 ever made me think “hm, this person may have a point.” Trust me. I tried. I really tried to understand and sympathize with the opposing view. But I just couldn’t - it was a ridiculous movement.</p>
<p>Whether these people know it or not, all the logic used to support Prop 8 was so severely flawed and only served as a poor attempt to rationalize the prejudice.</p>
<p>Take the “teaching children in schools” thing for example. This was by far the most popular statement I heard in regards to supporting Prop 8. Yet it really doesn’t mean anything at all. What does it mean? I didn’t even understand what people meant when they said this and I doubt they did either. </p>
<p>Could people be referring to the fact that schools just might actually encourage gay marriage? I hope I don’t have to get into why that would be such a ridiculous claim. Maybe, when people say “teach gay marriage in schools,” they are referring to gay marriage being taught in the history books? I sincerely hope this isn’t the case either as it just screams overprotection from reality. Eventually, I came to realize that people must have been referring to the fact that schools just might have actually encouraged tolerance towards gays! God forbid our schools teach our kids tolerance! </p>
<p>Does anyone else see that that argument is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt at rationalizing intolerance and bigotry? I’ve asked people to explain what they meant when they said they didn’t want kids being “taught gay marriage in school” and no one could explain. All it was was a talking point spoonfed to them. They don’t even understand what it is. Perhaps if they dug deeper, they’d realize its bigoted roots.</p>
<p>The same goes for many other Prop 8 arguments. None of the following have any grain of truth to them whatsoever, yet, somehow the plethora of misinformation spread anyway:</p>
<p>-A lot of people thought civil unions were exactly the same as marriages!
-One of the most popular claims was that gay marriage would force churches into performing and accepting the ceremonies
-If we legalize gay marriage, we’ll have to legalize marriage to objects, children, family, etc!
-I even heard some people claim civil unions are fine because Elton John himself supported civil unions! Hahaha…so many things wrong with that one. How about we start with the fact that he doesn’t even live here?</p>
<p>Basically, when people find their traditions and religion being challenged, they don’t want to let go. They don’t second-guess these arguments, they just blindly follow in hopes that they can save them from change. It REALLY worries me that people could so quickly convert themselves into blind sheep. These people are directly legislating in our state!</p>
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<p>Good old slippery slope fallacy. It’s an epic fail in the logic department. I particularly like “if we legalize gay marriage, what’s next?! Marriage to pets/children?!” </p>
<p>It says something terrible about a person when they have the audacity to compare non-heterosexuals to animals and pedophiles. Talk about dehumanizing.</p>
<p>Yup, they compare gay people to pedophiles, but they definitely aren’t homophobic.</p>
<p>They’re heterosexist! It’s more PC.</p>
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Funny you should mention that. There’s 30 republicans that agree- [Video:</a> Rape-Nuts | The Daily Show | Comedy Central](<a href=“Comedy Central The Daily Show Fan Page”>Comedy Central The Daily Show Fan Page)</p>
![http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_miscegenation.svg]File:US](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_miscegenation.svg%5DFile:US){kind=link}
