Another fraternity party death

Parents Forum
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<p>I have no personal knowledge about “what is happening” today, other than through my Greek son, who tells me that hazing is absolutely forbidden by his fraternity, and alcohol consumption is not encouraged. (His fraternity is mostly concerned with competing for the highest gpa designation).</p>

<p>I do not know whether there are drinking rituals used as part of pledging today, do you? I do know that hazing is illegal everywhere, and banned by all national fraternities. As we have seen, some of the deaths mentioned occurred in local (not national) fraternities and fraternities that had already lost their charters. </p>

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<p>BTW, meant to say that my son’s overindulgence was at a house party associated with a recreational club, not at a frat.</p>

<p>Really want to solve the problem? Make the alcohol that enables alcohol poisoning (hard liquor) more expensive than beer/wine. This list needs to be reversed, and the problem would ease significantly, I would bet…</p>

<p><a href=“http://getdrunknotfat.com/get-drunk-not-broke/”>http://getdrunknotfat.com/get-drunk-not-broke/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Here is some information about college student alcohol-related deaths, from the source I linked earlier:</p>

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<p>There are about 3 vehicular deaths per 100,000 students related to alcohol, and about 1 non-traffic accident death per 100,000 related to alcohol, per year.</p>

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<p>“I, for one, don’t like the whole concept of hazing, however supposedly harmless. The point of it is to break someone down so they can build them up as a more loyal group member. It’s also so that the group members bond more under the duress of the hazing. I dislike the whole groupthink aspect of this?”</p>

<p>Yes, but the love of God, can we all stop acting as though this is universal to all fraternity systems? Can we PLEASE distinguish between situations in which the “hazing” falls under harmless hi-jinks and situations in which kids are forced to drink to dangerous levels, eat vile substances, be outdoors for long periods in cold conditions, and so forth?</p>

<p>I am quite sure that the LAC’s at where there is no Greek system still have plenty of drunk students to contend with, and have to take students to seek medical help for too much alcohol on a routine basis.</p>

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<p>@Bay I do not see anyone being “hysterical” here on this thread at all. What I see are concerned parents who probably, like myself, are about to send their own children off to college. Obviously we want to educate them and ourselves on the nature of the environment they might encounter. </p>

<p>No one is saying it is every fraternity or that it is the greek system alone that creates the issues. But there are enough press accounts that confirm some chapters at some schools contribute to an unsafe environment in many ways. I think we all agree that the problem goes beyond that and there is an element of personal responsibility and lack of campus oversight that contributes as well. But to deny there is a problem or to marginalize it does not seem a prudent approach to me.</p>

<p>I believe frats and sororities should earn their place on a college campus and be held to the mission stated in their charter. They should not be permitted to tarnish, and in some cases effectively destroy, the reputations of the institutions to which they owe their very existence. </p>

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<p>@allinsh1. I like that idea. I like that idea coupled with making beer and wine legal at 19. </p>

<p>If the kids could just go stand around a keg legally, I highly doubt they’d bother with the other, more lethal delivery systems. </p>

<p>Clearly, they are going to drink. Why not make it easier to drink socially out in the open in low dose fashion?</p>

<p>This, it would seem, would be the best way to go, imho.</p>

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<p>“When we said something about drinking to get drunk being an unhealthy attitude toward alcohol, he seemed genuinely puzzled by that – “They why drink?” was his response. I think this is pretty typical of college students.”</p>

<p>Pretty typical of adults too. I roll my eyes every time that an adult tells me they only drink wine because it is so exquisite and not because it contains alcohol. The alcohol industry wouldn’t exist if it was just about the rarified tastes of 18 year old bourbon or complex oaky cabernets. Which could easily be produced and savored sans ethyl alcohol.</p>

<p>Drinking and getting buzzed is fun. Duh. Especially when you are young and single. Double duh!! </p>

<p>What kids and adults need to do is learn how to keep it between the white lines. So you can show up at work or class the next day. So you don’t wake up with your car, face or life shattered. Or don’t wake up at all. Kids need to learn how to do this, which requires (like anything) trial and error. So the only question is what is the best time and place and method for them to do their learning. </p>

<p>Seems moronic to me to make the classroom an environment that is completely illegal. You really want to incent your kid to chug a handle of cheap vodka behind a closed door in a dorm or frat party? Better to let 18 and 19 year olds learn about this in a safer environment with the training wheels on. Beer, wine, near beer; maybe limited to on premises consumption in a licensed bar. Let the kids pound their near beers while also pounding the message about drunk driving, the buddy system, etc. </p>

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<p>“I see, Much2Learn, it is the headlines and media reports that concern you then, and not the actual facts about college student deaths.”</p>

<p>Too many fraternities are engaging in risky, illegal, misogynistic, and racist behaviors on college campuses, while enjoying privileges of recognition by the college. These activities have resulted in the deaths of fraternity members, deaths of other students, as well as numerous rapes, but you are suggesting that a few deaths and rapes is not a big deal. Instead of discussing what needs to change, you suggest that there is not really a problem and that these concerns are “hysterical.” I see the ongoing drumbeat of incidents being reported in the news, and I disagree.</p>

<p>As times have changed, institutions have integrated men and women, and included all races. Fraternities have frequently lagged in this area, and that seems to result in issues of misogyny, racial hate, and violence. Furthermore, at many colleges, fraternities are ground zero for the nationwide student obsession with alcohol. On top of that are pledging activities that too often result in student deaths and injuries. Furthermore, these activities contribute to a campus environment that is hostile to women and we now have an amazing number of colleges under federal investigation for failing to respond to this hostility adequately. </p>

<p>The time has come to stop winking at these bad behaviors. Colleges, students, parents, and fraternity members themselves need to consider what actions can be taken to ensure that college campuses are safe, non-threatening environments for everyone. </p>

<p>What I am interested in is considering what we can do to make these things better, and I am open to anything that will work. If stringent enforcement of the drinking age will improve the environment I am open to it. Conversely, if lowering the drinking age will help, then I am open to that. I don’t know what the best solution is, but I know that arguing that it isn’t a big problem is not a solution at all. </p>

<p>What do you think can be done to reduce risky and illegal behaviors that fraternities are too often involved with, to make a safer, non-threatening environment for all students?</p>

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<p>I have not denied or minimized anything about what is going on with fraternities. I, for one, am concerned about the facts, and not sweeping generalizations, like “too many fraternities” are “too often involved” in certain behaviors. If anyone has the incentive to be informed, it is me, as I have a son in a fraternity.</p>

<p>From what I have learned from research and my son, I am not afraid for my son’s safety as a result of his membership in his fraternity. I sometimes have concerns about him making prudent decisions as a result of his age, but not about intentionally hurting others or himself, and the facts support me in my conclusion.</p>

<p>I would like to see the drinking age lowered to 18. I would like to see actual statistics about rapes that occur in fraternity houses. No one has provided that information so far that I can remember. I do not feel I need any more information about alcohol-related deaths.</p>

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<p>I believe this article should on the must read list of everyone with an opinion on this issue. </p>

<p><a href=“Why Don’t Colleges Get Rid of Their Bad Fraternities? - The Atlantic”>Why Don’t Colleges Get Rid of Their Bad Fraternities? - The Atlantic;

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<p>It is pretty well established that Dr. John Foubert who has done studies on the subject, is the most well versed on the issue of rape and fraternities. He has authored 7 books on the subject of the prevention of sexual assault and his studies are available online. If one has the time or inclination - which I do since I am sending a D off next fall - they are educational. For those who just want a short synopsis of what he and his colleagues have found, he authored the following article in response to the GT fiasco:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/09/opinion/foubert-fraternities-rape/”>Opinion: 'Rapebait' e-mail reveals dark side of frat culture - CNN;

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<p>I often wonder why exclusionary organizations are allowed affiliation with publicly funded universities. Isn’t “hazing” in general, contrary to the mission of most colleges? </p>

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<p>HarvestMoon,</p>

<p>That article/study was discussed on the other fraternity thread, and it does not contain any statistics. How many rapes have occurred in fraternity houses or have been perpetrated by fraternity members last year? This year? Any year? Where is that information? And how does it compare to rape statistics for college students in general? What does “three times more likely mean?” Does it mean that if one out of 10,000 men rape, then 3 out of 10,000 fraternity men are likely to rape?</p>

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<p>As a matter of fact, Bay, the article DOES contain statistics. Here’s the one that caught my eye (bold mine):</p>

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<p>But wait, perhaps you want something more detailed? All you have to do is click the link to get to the paper referenced in that article.</p>

<p>[Here</a> you are, Bay:](<a href=“http://www.academia.edu/163846/Foubert_J._D._Newberry_J._T._and_Tatum_J._L._2007_._Behavior_differences_seven_months_later_Effects_of_a_rape_prevention_program_on_first-year_men_who_join_fraternities._NASPA_Journal_44_728-749]Here”>http://www.academia.edu/163846/Foubert_J._D._Newberry_J._T._and_Tatum_J._L._2007_._Behavior_differences_seven_months_later_Effects_of_a_rape_prevention_program_on_first-year_men_who_join_fraternities._NASPA_Journal_44_728-749)</p>

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<p>I’d paste in Table 1, but it’s a bit difficult to format. But it’s just a click away.</p>

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<p>CF,
I’m pretty sure the first quote relates to one study that asks freshmen fraternity men at one college to self-report coercion. Is the second one also based on that study? (I’m on my phone)</p>

<p>How many rapes were there? What are the numbers?</p>

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<p>@"Cardinal Fang"‌ The study you are referencing is not diverse at all. Honestly these results mean nothing to me. The participants were all anonymous freshmen at one university. Saying these results translate to all other universities is ridiculous. </p>

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<p>Bay, 8% of the frat men said they committed a sexually coercive act in their first year. Is it your position that some of those men said they coerced women, but actually they did not? </p>

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<p>It’s my position that coercion is determined by the woman not the man, so the study is irrelevant. </p>

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<p>One aspect of my attempt to educate my own D on these issues is to share press reports so she is aware of the potential landscape. I went back and looked at some recent news items I sent her and since August 14’ there were 13 reports of frat related sexual assaults and no less than 4 colleges “suspending” frat activities while investigations are underway. That’s all the statistics I need.</p>

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<p>“It’s my position that coercion is determined by the woman not the man, so the study is irrelevant.”</p>

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<li><p>It is true that coercion is determined by the women, but using the man’s viewpoint is good for developing a conservative estimate. Men are significantly more likely to underreport this behavior. </p></li>
<li><p>I love the part where you ask people to go find information, then you ask them to read it for you and summarize it, then so you develop a rationalization for why the information they found does not matter, and ask them to find something else. Thanks for keeping me entertained.</p></li>
<li><p>Yes, I wonder why fraternities do not self report their rapes and attempted rapes so we will have good data to discuss on this forum. They really should do that. lol</p></li>
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