<p>First, a disclaimer: my husband and I are strangers to the Greek world and thus I may use terms incorrectly.
Our DS came home from college having completed three classes (writing, Spanish and psych) with two B pluses and a C-. The C- was because he decided he didn't care about the class and thus didn't do the readings or participate in discussions. He is signed up for five classes, 17 credits next semester but he is very interested in pledging a fraternity. We had arranged for him to arrive on campus a week before classes start for the rush process, and understand that pledging activities will be an intermittent distraction during January and February, culminating in "hell week" in March. </p>
<p>Question: should we suggest DS wait a year to pledge, and focus instead on improving his grades? We think he needs to settle down and concentrate (and he agrees). Once he gets into the swim of the frat pledging we believe he will find it difficult to say "not tonight, I have to study," and get enough sleep so that his daily attitude is not effective. A year's wait will have a big impact on the friends he hangs out with (all his friends are planning to pledge), however, and will also kill his plans for next year's housing.</p>
<p>If he is asking for your advice/input, my advice would be to wait. Two B pluses and a C- when he was only taking three classes is not a stellar performance. Why did he only take three? Was that considered a full load? To go from three classes to five will not make it easier. Disclaimer here is that my college age son is not in a frat and hasn't shown a desire in that direction. Perhaps some more wise CC parent will come aboard to say that being in a frat will help him..that is certainly not the stereotype though.</p>
<p>IMHO, adding demanding activities on top of a tougher class schedule when a student already has a motivation problem is not a good idea. Is he proposing to pay for this fraternity himself?</p>
<p>He withdrew from calc II in November, thus earning a "W" on his transcript. The reason he gave back then had to do with not wanting a C on his transcript. I know . . . </p>
<p>Thank you for the above advice. I will share it w/ hubby. I am a little worried, however, that if DS is miserable (watching his new friends pledge, and go off for social activities) that might be a powerful de-motivator.</p>
<p>At many schools, fraternities have mandatory study hall in the evenings for their pledges. Upperclassmen will help tutor their brothers. He can ask if that is the case for the fraternities he is rushing. You as a parent can contact the Greek Advisor ( a school employee) and get GPAs of each fraternity, the all-fraternity GPA, the all-Greek GPA, and then an all-student GPA. Many times this information is also online.</p>
<p>I was worried about this issue for my son this past fall - he pledged a fraternity, and it was an enormously time consuming process. He was a little worried about it too. </p>
<p>His fall semester grades just arrived - best grades he's had so far in college by a fairly significant margin. It's possible that the lack of free time forced him to be more disciplined about studying , but who knows? </p>
<p>There were mandatory study halls at the frat every evening; the pledging was over well before the end of semester crunch which it sounds like it would be for your son too. I do think that if you are going the frat route, it's a good thing to go through the process with your good friends.</p>
<p>It's a tough decision to advise on. I'm not a frat proponent, I can't just say "oh, don't worry about it" - I think your concerns are legitimate. In my son's case it ended up working out.</p>
<p>His grades should probably the least of your worries about your son pledging a fraternity. The bigger concern is whether you will get a phone call informing you that he has died of alcohol poisoining during the hazing activities.</p>
<p>Ask Xiggi about his friend Gordie Bailey and the impact that phone call had on Bailey's family.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The C- was because he decided he didn't care about the class and thus didn't do the readings or participate in discussions.
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</p>
<p>BTW, this explanation quite possibly translates to "I don't really give a damn and I'm not about to let my classes interfere with partying."</p>
<p>I think that you and your husband need to have a long conversation with your son about why he is even going to college. If he's not doing the readings or participating in class, what's the point?</p>
<p>I am a strong believer that it is a waste of money to support an unmotivated student. Have them do something else until they are internally motivated to actively participate in a college education. Joining a fraternity wouldn't even be open for discussion.</p>
<p>A "withdraw" and a C- should be a big warning flag. It is quite likely that he is already on academic probation.</p>
<p>
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It is quite likely that he is already on academic probation.
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</p>
<p>If all classes are carrying an equal amount of credit, if the W is factored into the GPA then student ends up with a 2.075 GPA</p>
<p>If all classes are carrying an equal amount of credit, if the W is not factored into the GPA then student ends up with a 2.766 GPA</p>
<p>while yes, there is room for improvement (and there should be some concern over the C- and the reason for the withdrawl), the student would not be on academic probation.</p>
<p>I know that some schools set minimum GPAs for kids to participate in Greek life - does your son qualify to rush? This is a tough dilemma, because you're right that there could be resentment if you prevent him from doing something that's important to him; on the other hand, he needs to get himself on firmer ground academically, and that's much more important just now.</p>
<p>I don't have any sons, but I do know several of my older daughter's friends whose academic performance was not what it could have been because of rushing a particular frat freshman year. These were all smart guys, at a selective school not known for its Greek life - yet the socializing, drinking, and ritual proved definite distractions. Two guys were put on academic probation 2nd semester, and both wound up leaving school because of grade issues.</p>
<p>Would your son be willing to withdraw from his frat if he gets in over his head academically?</p>
<p>Is this what you want for your son? Do you think these hazing rituals will help him adjust to college and focus on his academics, for which you are paying $40,000 a year? Will these "frat brothers" help get him back on pace to actually graduate in four years?</p>
<p>My SIL was pledging a sorority when she was asked to attend a frat party on an evening when she had mandatory lab. (She was a pharmacy major.) She was told that the frat party took priority, lab classes in the evening weren't supposed to be scheduled by profs (this was pharmacology, THE killer course sequence in her major!), and that she would be fined $100 for failing to attend. </p>
<p>Her resignation was submitted the next morning. Greek events over academics was standing operating procedure at this school. I also encountered professors who would excuse folks from meeting in the evening on group projects, but would not excuse me because I had to work (I was paying my own way.).</p>
<p>A W and a C- out of four courses would be a big red flag to me, too. Time to get priorities straight or transfer to a school that's not going to cost you an arm and a leg.</p>
<p>Cornell has taken bold steps to combat hazing, including establishing the aforementioned website and not pretending that the problem didn't exist. From a public relations point of view it was very brave, because the more common political road would be to make light of the situation, rather than admit a problem exists. </p>
<p>To quote the website
[quote]
These incidents have led the university to take significant actions in regard to hazing. Sixteen organizations have been disbanded or undergone a membership review as a result of hazing violations in recent years. Some groups have returned to campus with revised initiation programs that exclude hazing.
[/quote]
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Cornell administration continues to be vigilant and has established a terrific support network for students including an anonymous reporting system. The Greek culture at Cornell has improved immensely since 2002 when the paper was written. </p>
<p>Other universities should use Cornell's website as a model and address the problem head-on. </p>
<p>SuNa: Whatever your son decides to do, pledging will be time consuming, even if it doesn't involve hazing. Some people say it's about equal to taking another class for the semester. Off topic, I think that 17 credits is too much for him regardless of whether he pledges or not. This is just judging by his last semester's performance. If you feel he is behind, then maybe he can take some courses next summer at your local community college. The registrar at his home institution (is it Cornell?) has to approve the course before he enrolls in order to guarantee that he receives credit.</p>
<p>
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Cornell has taken bold steps to combat hazing, including establishing the aforementioned website and not pretending that the problem didn't exist.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, a bold step would be to get rid of the sorry organizations. </p>
<p>Few colleges are willing to do that because it would require that the school assume the responsibility for housing and social life. Instead, they go thru a charade of policing the greek organizations, slapping a few wrists when somebody dies or when it is otherwise impossible to totally ignore the problems.</p>
<p>Wrongful death lawsuits and criminal sanctions will eventually wipe out the greek system. Until then, buyer beware.</p>
<p>@SuNa; Pledging is a huge time committment. Despite the negative comments on this board, a reputable organization will never ask their pledges to skip class for any greek event, be it ritual, social, or community service in nature. Academics are of the most important value since organizations can be kicked off campus if pledges' or active members' G.P.A drops below satisfactory level. To ensure academics remain top priority, most organizations require their pledges to participate in study hours throughout their pledge period. </p>
<p>However, given your son's grades, I think he should wait another semester before pledging so he can bring his G.P.A. up to par. In the meantime, ask your son which fraternities he's considering. Then visit each fraternity's website to find out more about the organization. Most National fraternities have a page on their websites dedicated to providing information to parents of potential pledges and answering questions that the potential pledge or their parents might have.</p>
<p>Most schools have G.P.A. requirements that rushees (people interested in joining a Greek Lettered Organization) must meet in order to pledge. Many schools also have deferred rush where Freshmen cannot pledge until their second semester. This ensures that new students have time to get used to being in college before committing themselves to the pledge process. Many organizations also have similar requirements of G.P.A. and class standing for rushees as well.</p>
<p>As for the person who posted the grossly ignorant comment (#16) above mine,
hazing is illegal in most states and has been banned by most organizations. It is important for parents to know that pledging does not equal hazing. The purpose of pledging is to teach the pledges about the inner workings of the organization, its rules, history, customs, and traditions. It is also to allow the pledges the opportunity get to know the active siblings and their pledge siblings on a more personal level while the active siblings get to know them on a more personal level. It does not include degradation, abuse, or anything else that is considered hazing by municipal/state law.</p>
<p>
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Most National fraternities have a page on their websites dedicated to providing information to parents of potential pledges and answering questions that the potential pledge or their parents might have.
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</p>
<p>The page should be called the Eddie Haskell page: "Gee, Mrs. Cleaver, that's a lovely dress you're wearing, today."</p>
<p>Of course fraternities "don't have hazing". Everyone involved has agreed to say they "don't have hazing". But, pledges keep dying.</p>
<p>The PR spin on the national websites doesn't match the reality on the ground. It's called risk management, aka "plausible deniability". Read the account of pledging at Cornell.</p>
<p>Ask Gordie Bailey's parents about fraternity pledging.</p>
<p>Here's the reality on the ground at Cornell last spring:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Organization: Sigma Alpha Epsilon, Interfraternity Council chapter</p>
<p>Semester: Spring, 2006</p>
<p>Description: </p>
<p>New Member Activities
The OFSA received information from a credible source that new members of Sigma Alpha Epsilon were on curfew every Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday evenings starting at 11:00 PM. The instructions were that pledges were to be in their rooms at this time to be available to go to the chapter house for line-ups, calisthenics, and other duties. It had been reported that pledges have done push-ups and that one person collapsed as a result of fatigue. The New Members of SAE were also participating in “POW Week” which meant that they could not leave the fraternity house unless they had class. Additionally they were restricted to use the showers between the hours of 3 AM and 6 AM. Finally, as a part of the new member program, pledges were required to provide evening entertainment at dinner. On one occasion, pledges took part in milk chugging game in which they were to drink a glass of milk every minute until someone vomited. </p>
<p>Signature Book
An SAE “signature book” was found on campus and turned into the OFSA. Pages of the book had the names and addresses of active members written on it as well as a number of specific duties/jobs required of the new member. Several examples include cleaning vomit out of a car, purchasing illegal drugs, preparing for evening entertainment, and performing sexual acts.</p>
<p>Academic Conflicts
The OFSA received an email from a student’s advisor. The student had stated to the advisor that he wished to drop two required classes. When the advisor inquired about the request, he stated that fraternity obligations were leaving him too tired for an 8:40am class and that he wanted a couple of days during the week to catch up on needed sleep. The advisor did not have any details on what these fraternity obligations were, but informed the student that fraternity participation is secondary to academic performance and meeting academic requirements.
<p>I've watched Interesteddad bash fraternities for a while now, and it has actually forced me to register and post instead of just reading this forum for information.</p>
<p>I realize nobody can change his mind on the subject, and I have no intention of trying to. I just want to give the other side of the discussion for those of you who still have an open mind.</p>
<p>Fraternities (or sororities, but I have no first hand knowledge of those) are not all created equal. There are some that deserve the reputation they have, and others that have become what the term implies. What parents (and students) need to do is research the fraternity they are interested in, both nationally and within their own school.</p>
<p>My oldest son expressed an interest in joining a fraternity in his freshman year. This was a student who was already very social. Not so social that his grades suffered (he did, after all, get into the University of Michigan) but he certainly had more friends than I could count. His reasoning was that getting into the business school at Michigan required more than just grades, and that a fraternity would provide a means of community service, and support from others with his interest. The fraternity he chose was ranked at the top both academically, in sports, and in community service. </p>
<p>I was extremely leery, having the same bias against fraternities that interesteddad did. But after listening to my son's sales pitch, and looking into it myself, decided that the kid had certainly shown good judgement in the past and it was his decision to make. It was a good experience for the entire four years. Not only did he get into Umich's business school (no small feat) but he graduated in four years with an extremely good GPA and now has an excellent job. </p>
<p>His younger brother is NOT a social animal. I was shocked that when he followed his brother to Michigan a few years later he also was interested in joining. I discussed the situation with the older one and he told me that it would be very good for him. So he joined too. It turned out even better for him than for his brother. His best friends now are from the fraternity. It gave him the social support he needed at a huge university. It provided him with like-minded people to hang out with people that he felt comfortable with to go to with questions and for support. He graduated from the engineering school with a 3.9 GPA and is in grad school now. He probably would have done well academically without the fraternity, but it sure made his experience there better.</p>
<p>Not all fraternities are good. Not all are bad. Schools keep lists of how the fraternities do at their school. At least they do at Umich. The fraternities list their average GPA's, their standing in intramural sports and their support of community service. Look into it for yourselves.</p>