Anyone concerned about upcoming fraternity rush/pledging and its effect on grades?

Parents Forum
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<p>interesteddad:

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Actually, a bold step would be to get rid of the sorry organizations. Few colleges are willing to do that because it would require that the school assume the responsibility for housing and social life. Instead, they go thru a charade of policing the greek organizations, slapping a few wrists when somebody dies or when it is otherwise impossible to totally ignore the problems.

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<p>Apparently, some colleges feel that they can't (or shouldn't) legally ban fraternities due to people's "right to freely associate" with whomever they want. </p>

<p>BUT some colleges have taken bold steps to downplay frats on campus. Two that I know of are Denison and Colgate. </p>

<p>Denison simply removed their right to live together on campus (and all students are Denison are required to live on campus for all 4 years). In 1995 they took the lovely homes on the north quad, which had fallen into very poor condition, renovated them, and turned them into regular housing. Of course it was not without argument - by some alumni - but "since the initial hit in the wallet, overall alumni donations increased almost threefold to $13 million in 2003-04."
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=133740%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=133740&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Colgate also made an effort to "restructure" its frats...They bought all the on-campus frat houses and "de-recognized" all off campus frats.
<a href="http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/051128/28frat.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/051128/28frat.htm&lt;/a>

[quote]
Colgate's effort is a particularly contentious example of a trend toward greater university control of Greek communities. In recent weeks, frats in at least five other states have been fighting derecognition, takeover bids from universities, and community ordinances aimed at quieting their raucous ways. For too long, many schools argue, the Greek system has been a haven for Animal House- style behavior: hazing, sexual assaults, and rampant binge drinking. Efforts to bring frats to heel have followed a similar pattern. Schools require more students to live on campus, depriving the fraternities of revenue generated by residents. Then schools either purchase property or, like Colgate, deny recognition to off-campus houses, compelling the fraternities to sell. Many schools, including the University of South Florida, George Washington University, and the University of Connecticut, have built Greek villages with dorm-style living for frats and sororities...</p>

<p>...For much of Greek history, the relationship between administrators and fraternal societies was symbiotic. Fraternities assumed responsibility for feeding, housing, and entertaining students long before student life became the purview of the modern college. The arrangement worked well, especially at more remote campuses, like Colgate, where social outlets were limited. As a result, fraternities sit on some of the best land around colleges, making them appealing targets for cash-flush schools eager to expand. In the past 20 years, however, the relationship between schools and their Greek communities has deteriorated. When the drinking age was raised to 21 in the early 1980s, campus social life began to shift even further toward fraternities as a source of entertainment. Communities began passing zoning laws limiting the spread of students into residential neighborhoods, and in the wake of numerous injuries and tragic deaths, concerns over campus safety, from fire codes to binge drinking, became a public obsession.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, colleges have expanded their educational mission, often blurring the line between classroom and dorm room. "We don't care what students do outside the classroom, so long as that experience is educational," says Adam Weinberg, Colgate's dean. "In the old Greek system, there were too many wasted educational moments." To that ambitious end, the school now offers theme dorms, including Peace Studies House, Ecology House, and Asia Interest House. "Residential liberal arts schools are in danger of becoming quaint, and residential initiatives are an effort to update [their] relevance," says Scott Meiklejohn, a Colgate trustee and vice president for planning and institutional advancement at Bowdoin College, which eliminated its Greek system five years ago.

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<p>There are many other examples I'm sure. Most colleges will freely admit they keep the frats for the alumni donations.</p>

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<p>Does the university report the average GPAs of the frats? That is one way to find out if students in a particular fraternity are maintaining their grades. It doesn't address his motivation or ability to maintain the level of work required to get good grades.</p>

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<p>Suna, interesteddad has an irrational hatred of the Greek system so I hope you do not take his comments too seriously. The fact is that at most colleges there are good fraternities and bad ones. Secondly some colleges have chosen to exert little governance or oversight of the Greek system. Fortunately this is not the case with Cornell. It has a F/S Strategic Plan in place and rates every frat and sorority in how well they meet the goals of the plan.</p>

<p>The fact is that there are good fraternities and bad fraternities. The Cornell Strategic Plan rating and chapter gpa statistics should give you and your son an indication of how the fraternity he wants to pledge stacks up. In the 2006 academic year the overall fraternity gpa was about 3.225, probably not too far below the university average.</p>

<p>And of course some students will thrive in a fraternity while some others will drown. Only you and your son can answer that question though I agree with interesteddad's cautionary observation about your sons first semester performance.</p>

<p>Here is the link for the 2006 Annual Report where I found the info included in this post. Enjoy.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.greeks.cornell.edu/PDFs/06/OFSA%20AR06.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.greeks.cornell.edu/PDFs/06/OFSA%20AR06.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>
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It provided him with like-minded people to hang out with people that he felt comfortable with to go to with questions and for support.

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I don't think idad's hatred is irrational, by the way. Frat hazing & alcohol abuse are often deadly.</p>

<p>But the above quote is another aspect of the frat mindset that is completely the opposite of what a college experience should be. I want my kids to explore and create and take risks. I don't want them to surround themselves in a cocoon of "like-minded" people. I don't want them to aspire to be part of an exclusive club. I don't want them cowering to an upperclassman who holds the power to admit or deny them. I'm not raising obsequious sycophants.</p>

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<p>Pledging takes up a lot of time and effort. I liken it to taking another class. If your son cannot manage his time efficiently and keep his academics up to par, he will suffer. This is one of those times where I would not recommend greek life to someone unless they can prove that they can handle the extra commitment and responsibility. Otherwise, I'd say go for it.</p>

<p>Interresteddad is posting a lot of unfortunate and scary stories, but you have to realize that these are not the norm. The press only reports the bad news and not the good news. The good news is that most fraternities (at least those worth joining) have done away with hazing and are far tamer than they were 25 years ago. The bad news is that there are still some houses out there, especially local ones that aren't part of the Interfraternity Council, that think they can get away with sketchy practices. This is what all prospective members need to watch out for, and what current members need to change.</p>

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<p>StickerShock, just because you join a fraternity doesn't mean you suddenly lose your individuality. It doesn't mean that you're only allowed to be friends with the 35 people you live with. It doesn't mean you suddenly have to compromise the morals and values you have gained over the first 18 years of your life. </p>

<p>If your kids are truely the kind who like to explore, create and take risks, then no club or organization can or will change that fact.</p>

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<p>
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Here is the link for the 2006 Annual Report where I found the info included in this post.

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<p>It could be argued that these publication are simply marketing brochures for greek organizations funded by the universities and colleges.</p>

<p>The GPA stats need to be taken with a grain of salt. First, they only count courses currently enrolled. Flunking two courses? Drop 'em and they won't count against the frat's number.</p>

<p>Frats also use the same sleight of hand colleges use. When a frat violates a rule, slap their hand by "decertifying" them for a couple of semesters. Of course, the frat still exists. Same thing with members. Decertify a member so the GPA isn't harmed. Doesn't matter that the kid is still hanging out at the frat house playing beer pong.</p>

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<p>I had a bad experience with a frat even when none of my children were in college. My D’s BF joined one of the bad options instead of the good ones available, and less than two months after that, he was pressured to quit (and I know he paid a lot of money). That frat used to have all his formals and parties in another state so the school didn’t watch over it. When my D was invited to his BF first formal, I did my homework and I have to admit, I said NO WAY.
By that time, one of my CC virtual friends warned me about the dangers of those uncontrolled parties, and he was right.</p>

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<p>At both my son's schools it was more common for gpa to decrease during pledging semester. It was even mentioned at the freshman orientation at younger son's school that students should consider taking a light load the semester they pledge.</p>

<p>At S's school there are many, many obligations during the week that interfere with study time during pledge. Some of these were even all night road trips, "endurance tests" of pledges, etc. Son's had one suitemate whose gpa dropped considerably and another suitemate who "depledged" (is that a word?) due to time demands.</p>

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<p>
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It was even mentioned at the freshman orientation at younger son's school that students should consider taking a light load the semester they pledge.

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<p>How crazy is that? Why do these colleges allow organizations that detract from taking a full academic load to exist.</p>

<p>
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Some of these were even all night road trips, "endurance tests" of pledges, etc.

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<p>These are all just euphemisms for hazing. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....</p>

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<p>Demands on pledges that deprive them of the opportunity to sleep or study normally are a form of hazing. </p>

<p>Of course, membership in a Greek house -- like any other extracurricular activity -- requires a time commitment. But the commitment shouldn't be overwhelming and shouldn't involve any kind of all-night activity.</p>

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<p>Yeah, StickerShock, I have to agree that exclusive social clubs don't have a place in my ideal college (the one I am going to start and be president of, as soon as I can think of a catchy name). But of course, fate would have it that both my kids have wanted or want to join a Greek organization. As far as our son, we have decided to allow him to go forward with rushing, while sharing with us his progress with grades. I will visit campus in mid-March and take a look as well. We have told him that, by spring break, if things aren't looking good, he will have to live in a dorm instead. I am not entirely pleased w/ the decision, but the problem is that frats are so all-encompassing at his school that if we cut them out he loses a significant amount of time with all four of his close friends who will be swept up in the Greek scene as well as his plans for sophomore year housing.</p>

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<p>My son pledged a frat 1st semester at a highly regarded university. It was a top frat and he was thrilled to get a bid. It was hard for us to say no. He ended up being hazed physically and psychologically (deprived of sleep, food, many late late nights etc). Every kid is different but he definitely took the demands of the frat more seriously than his education, and felt very pressured to do whatever they told him. There were punishments both monetary and physical. Academic success was never a priority to the frat. A former straight A student he ended up on academic probabation with a very low GPA. Since then he has managed to pull up his GPA (but the damage was considerable) and he is still in the frat with mixed feelings about it. He has made some great contacts and had some good experiences though it is very very expensive (lots of kids with way more discretionary income than he has). In retrospect I wish we'd made him wait to pledge. What he told me is that because of the frat he never got a chance to get his feet on the ground academically before the rug was pulled out from under him. So unless a kid already has mastered the academic side of the college experience, I certainly wouldn't think pledging a frat is a good idea. The risks are considerable. And at least in my son's case they keep 2 member lists (one with the higher GPAs), while the ones with lower GPAs are sort of stealth members. So take what they about GPA with a grain of salt...</p>

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<p>SuNa, whether it's a frat, a time-consuming off campus job, a GF or BF, a varsity sport..... I think the principal is the same. Academics come first; your son has to learn how to balance his classes, labs, homework, sections, papers, etc. Since he hasn't yet proven his mettle, I'd be concerned about adding another element to the mix.</p>

<p>Not all frats are bad; not all kids who virtuously avoid frats devote their free time to studying and helping the poor; lots of people have substance abuse issues who never went near a frat or even made it to college, so I'd be hesitant to throw a lot of what you've read on this thread onto your son's plate. You and he are in the process of learning how to have a more adult relationship and figuring out how to set boundaries now that he's out of the house.... I think many of the posters here are unduly self-righteous about their parenting skills (it's easy to set limits for a compliant adolescent whose only vice was wanting to stay up late reading Kant and Hegel. The rest of us had to muddle along).</p>

<p>So-- my approach would be not to condem the frat; not to vilify his attempts at creating a solid social life and finding a fit (which we all profess to be so important to the college experience) and not to assume that he can't handle it..... but to calmly point out to him that so far, the evidence is thin that he could handle a major non-academic commitment (whether sports, social, whatever) given his performance to date.</p>

<p>Then-- let him figure out how to fix this. 5 classes is a heavy load if he had some difficulties with 3; frats can be noisy places that are not conducive to study; the distraction of lots of friendships right away and major time commitments could be a high hurdle for him if his adjustment to college has been tough so far. So, listen to him. He may be in denial that his grades are a problem (and maybe they're not a problem.... but dropping a course Freshman year is an early warning signal). He may also be more homesick than he's shared with you; he may be finding the social part of college significantly more gratifying than the academic part which is great but also doesn't bode well for his ability to manage his time.</p>

<p>Net.... don't vilify or forbid-- my suggestion would be to outline the facts and then listen. He may talk himself out of the frat for now, which seems to me to be a much preferred option to you forbidding it, regardless of your reasons. He may also lay out a plan for getting on track, including spending time at the study skills center, meeting with a dean before commiting to his classes to make sure it's a manageable load, etc. All of this seems to me to be a good thing regardless of the frat business.</p>

<p>To Interestdad.... you should also let people know the stats on teenage driving, which are horrific; the stats on children and teenagers who die from firearm accidents; the stats on STD's which have created a huge group of women with fertility problems a decade after college; the number of kids who are sexually abused by a family member. Why stop the public service announcements with fraternities, when there are so many other horrible things that can happen to people's kids?????</p>

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<p>
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To Interestdad.... you should also let people know the stats on teenage driving, which are horrific; the stats on children and teenagers who die from firearm accidents; the stats on STD's which have created a huge group of women with fertility problems a decade after college; the number of kids who are sexually abused by a family member. Why stop the public service announcements with fraternities, when there are so many other horrible things that can happen to people's kids?????

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<p>I am not aware that colleges have officially sanctioned and promoted student organizations with a primary focus centered around those other things.</p>

<p>If colleges promoted organizations dedicated to STDs or gun injuries, I'd probably have something to say about that, too.</p>

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<p>SuNa:
Have you talked to your son about WHY he struggled (or even if he did--Cornell is notorious for grade deflation among the Ivies) this semester? Were the classes boring, the TA's (if applicable) hard to understand, the classes too early in the day, the language level too high, lack of appropriate prep in math or writing, etc? It could be that the root is problem isn't a lack of time/motivation but something else in which case you might want to address THAT.</p>

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<p>
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When a frat violates a rule, slap their hand by "decertifying" them for a couple of semesters. Of course, the frat still exists. Same thing with members. Decertify a member so the GPA isn't harmed. Doesn't matter that the kid is still hanging out at the frat house playing beer pong.

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<p>I don't know about other universitites, but since ID singled out Cornell, I must mention that when a Fraternity/Sorority is forced to disband, it is shut-down completely forcing students to quickly scramble to find a place to live.</p>

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<p>No, seriously, I want to know where kids get the $300 - $800 dues for these frats? I guess I don't have to worry about one of my kids joining a frat - they wouldn't have the money! But are other parents picking up the tab, one way or another, for this?</p>

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<p>^^^ Most of the students I know have jobs - either summer jobs or ones during school or both - that can easily provide them with a spare $300-$800, particularly if being in a frat is a priority for them.</p>

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<p>^ That is why I put in there "one way or another." Kids might make enough to pay for that out of a summer job, but then are the parents stuck paying for books/ tickets home/ clothes/ car/ or other, perhaps necessary, expenses? Personally, I think if kids are making that much "extra" money over the summer then they can chip in on tuition!</p>