Anyone concerned about upcoming fraternity rush/pledging and its effect on grades?

Parents Forum
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<p>


Any organization that involves a serious time committment will make it harder to take a full academic load. Fraternities/sororities, athletic teams, volunteer and political organizations. Pledgeship involves a serious time committment. If a student can't sacrifice that time and still keep up with his/her academic responsibilities, he/she should not join. If you can't balance baseball and academics, don't play baseball. If you can't balance marching band and academics, quit the band. Same thing with fraternities.</p>

<p>Idad is partially right about taking GPA comparisons with a grain of salt. The "drop courses so your GPA isnt affected" thing would work just as well for guys outside of fraternities, you can't say only guys in fraternities do that. But it is true that guys who don't have the GPA to join a fraternity can pledge "underground" which means their GPA does not count for the fraternity and instead lowers the non-Greek GPA even though the guy will still be a fraternity member. Also the non-Greek and all-student GPA is lowered by those guys and girls who don't have the requisite GPA to pledge. That said, many colleges are cracking down on underground pledging and threatening Greek organizations with serious punishments if they are caught doing it. Hopefully this will end the practice. I know it has at least seriously reduced it.</p>

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<p>If he pledges, will he live in the frat sophomore year? Or can he join without living in the house? Given that you probably pay for housing, could you make him prove he can handle the frat activities and improve his grades before allowing him to live in the frat?</p>

<p>I'm another parent who was unenthusiatic about S's decision to pledge. In fact, I was floored by it. We will not pay dues. He does that. In spite of his decision to pledge in Spring of freshman year, he chose to live in a dorm sophomore year, and moved into the frat as a junior. His particular frat is full of good to excellent students, so I do agree that there is a difference between frats. I did get the impression that he spent a lot of time pledging -- the equivalent of another course.</p>

<p>Interestingly, son's grades after he moved into the frat went up. (?) I think it is because he likes living in the house, he has a single room, but can come out and join friends in the living room or kitchen. At his school, dorms can be more isolating after freshman year, when friends are spread out. Or, it could just be because he's getting into harder courses now and has had to commit more time. But we were glad he didn't choose to live in the house until he was more mature.</p>

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<p>Fraternities do pressure guys to get their grades up because they know that good grades help rush. Also they often have libraries full of books and cold tests that members can use.</p>

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<p>I just read in our paper about charges being filed against some of the frat members in the last years death of male student at a UT-Austin Asian frat. He was pressured to drink massive amounts of alcohol and died. Another frat pledge recently fell off his 5-story U.T. Towers (private dorm) balcony and died. No official word of the reason for his death, but the time and mode of his death would suggest alcohol use. Both incredible tragedies for families and friends - they were both intelligent kids with lots of friends. :(</p>

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<p>For me, dues and house bills replace the meal plan/dorm costs normally levied by the school. It is essentially paying for food, utilities, taxes and national dues. Even then, living at the house costs $6500 a year instead of $10,000 a year for school dorms, and the food and accomodations are far better. The bill can be paid through the school along with normal tuition.</p>

<p>I was vehemently agaist greek life when I first went to college. My father told me to keep an open mind and at least consider it, and his advice did me a world of good, IMHO. Once again, your mileage may vary depending on the fraternity you choose and the general campus atmosphere. As always, buyer beware.</p>

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<p>I am living this experience now - smart kid, desperate to pledge with his friends but we asked him to wait until 2nd semester. Still wanted to pledge 2nd semester and we agreed with several conditions and with significant apprehension. Grades hovered around 3.1 after 2nd semester freshman year. Not what we expected from him and he promised to do better this semester but alas things aren't better, in fact, things are worse. He not only doesn't have great grades but he doesn't participate in anything at school - nothing but the frat, even though we specifically asked him to participate in something else because we felt he was overinvolved in the frat. This is a kid who takes 5 coureses and doesn't work, doesn't have any lab courses, no volunteer work, etc. He has a lot of time to devote to his purpose in being on campus - his studies - in addition to having a social life. But, his time and mental energy, his purpose in life, have been given over to the frat and the Greek social scene, not only freshman year but now sophomore year, too. You can't belong to a frat and not be involved in it. It is consuming and a sense of loyalty above all else is bred into the pledges and members. Don't forget that those who are rushed freshman year and rushing new pledges the next year. There are parties every weekend, different Greek activities and functions, there are obligations to the frat, there are out of town formals and there are expectations to live up to, including drinking games. </p>

<p>During this break we are discussing ways to change the course of his life - including leaving this school. Apparently extricating oneself from the frat scene is not easy but that is what I am asking him to do. I don't want to do this but it's clear that it's too easy to get sucked up into the brotherhood, the traditions, the pomp and circumstance, the partying, the elitism and the perceived identity of it all and lose site of what college is all about. My son pays his own dues from summer earnings (dues are $900/year) but we have sent him spending money. I just stopped that back door support of this ridiculous distraction as well. Believe me, son #2 is not even looking at colleges with frats and if by chance one shows up on campus that he wants to join, it's going to be a definitely no. </p>

<p>To the OP - my son had a roommate freshman year who was the only male on the floor whose parents said absolutely no to his joining a frat. He wasn't happy about it but guess what - he goes to all the parties, hangs out with the same kids, but is an RA, is participating in several school sponsored activities, is tutoring and has a much better GPA than my son. You CAN say no - and I strongly recommend that you do. Independents are free to be many things and pick their own friends. Your son will not be isolated but will find a different path through college and you will not be dealing with the disappointment of seeing your son giveover his post-college dreams to the brotherhood of........illlusion? In my experience with administration, frats are tolerated because they are historic, and many of the administrators participated. They are out of control now, though, and administrators appear to be confused about how to manage the risks while keeping the traditions alive. </p>

<p>Interresteddad has it right.</p>

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<p>Speaking of just saying NO. </p>

<p>My daughter's school as two remaining frats. For the most part, they integrate into the broader campus reasonably well and have membership well under 10% of the male students, but still account for virtually all of the alcohol related mayhem and destruction on campus.</p>

<p>The men's soccer coach just says NO to the frats. Join a frat; off the team. End of story. I've never met him, but I like him a lot.</p>

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<p>brooklynharris says:

[quote]
For me, dues and house bills replace the meal plan/dorm costs normally levied by the school. It is essentially paying for food, utilities, taxes and national dues. Even then, living at the house costs $6500 a year instead of $10,000 a year for school dorms, and the food and accomodations are far better. The bill can be paid through the school along with normal tuition.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, but living in a dorm isn't necessarily the alternative choice. Living in a student apartment (sans the $300-$800 "dues") may be.</p>

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<p>Rileydog, thanks for sharing your story. The cult-like draw of frats is quite ominous. I wish you luck with getting your son back on track.</p>

<p>Idad: I like that coach, too.</p>

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<p>ID and I attended the same college, which had eliminated frats before we set foot on campus.</p>

<p>Frankly, I think they should bring 'em back, but make sure they are at least two miles from campus. Maybe the drunks, feces droppers, and excrement spreaders would move there, and leave at least some of the rest of the students in peace.</p>

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<p>Mini, there are two frats off campus ... about 5 miles north in Pownal. Been there going back to the 70's.</p>

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<p>(You mean the St. Anthony Hall thing?) Anyhow, doesn't count unless it moves the students off campus.</p>

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<p>I think that was one of them; KA or something like that was the other.</p>

<p>Anyways, we digress.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Apparently extricating oneself from the frat scene is not easy but that is what I am asking him to do.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Evidently this is very true. Son's roommate joined a frat, made it through most of pledge time. When demands and silly time-wasting activities/hazing became too much, he dropped. And guess what? He was ostracized by those who had recruited him--no longer spoken to on campus and other frat guys labeled him a "quitter". He ended up very unhappy this semester and is not coming back in Jan.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
ID and I attended the same college, which had eliminated frats before we set foot on campus.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It was one of my primary criteria in selecting the college.</p>

<p>Ironically, I now think the school should go back to a full fraternity system and sell the Greylock Quad to some sororities. I think there is a "disconnect" between the administration's view of housing/student life and the student body the admissions office is tasked to enroll. A clear delineation between Greeks and GDIs on campus would go a long way towards addressing the housing interests of both groups. GDIs would just never venture beyond the Science Quad/Theater line of demarcation.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
You can't belong to a frat and not be involved in it.

[/quote]

Partially true. There are required meetings and things like that that you must come to or be fined, but if you have a legitimate reason, its excused. But other than pledgeship and rush when you are a sophomore (sophomores are usually most involved with rush), your level of involvement is up to you, at least at my school. My pledge class made it through pledgeship with a 3.5 GPA, and our GPA this term (after spending a lot of time on rush) is around the same thing, maybe higher. I had a 4.0 during pledgeship and again this term after spending a lot of time rushing kids. A lot of us also have outside activities like band or club sports. It is possible to be in a fraternity and have time for academics and extracurriculars, it just takes a lot of work (and willingness to sacrifice things like sit-on-the-couch-doing-nothing-time) and not everyone can do it.</p>

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<p>Dima, Thanks for the telling us the positive story. So, how many "W"s were there among the pledge class to achieve a 3.5? Maybe a better question, is also how many students needed to drop a class to achieve that 3.5 and how many students were in the pledge class?</p>

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<p>As with anything, take a look for yourself before you close your mind to a subject. A VERY broad paintbrush is being used here. Each situation is different, each group of people are different. Mine has had a great experience with the Kappa Sigma fraternity at his school. At first I too was against his joining because like many I listen to the horror stories some have had. The thing is, I did raise an individual who would not do anything he really didn't want to, so I had confidence in his ability to say this is "bs" and move on. His situation wasn't like some mentioned, yea they stayed up all night, had to answer quizes on the history of the frat, maybe did a little exercise (no idea) but nothing he would be ashamed of.</p>

<p>"Animals son?...no dad, no farm animals."</p>

<p>His frat has a gpa requirement and the school requires the frat to have a higher than the school average. That includes the female student body, not an easy feat for a group of guys. In fact his was the only one allowed rush one year because of gpa's. </p>

<p>Among the terrible experiences he has participated in because of his involvement with KSig: </p>

<p>Working with Special Olympics 3 years.
Working with habitat for Humanity 3 years.
Working with local elementary children reading programs 3 years.
Homecoming 3 years.
Fraternity/Sorority community services programing 1 year.
National scholarship winner KSig.
Discovering LAX, after Soccer coach cut him because he's premed. (I guess that cancels out the soccer coach who cuts frat boys.)</p>

<p>And before we crown him as the second coming..</p>

<p>He also enjoys partying and drinking.
Doing dumb things kids do.</p>

<p>His frat brothers are a wide range of people from different economic backgrounds who for the most part:</p>

<p>Haven't learned that cleaning doesn't count if the floor is still sticky after your "done". </p>

<p>That staying up till 4 am isn't all it's cut out to be. </p>

<p>Food tastes better if you wash the pots once in a while. </p>

<p>While their personal hygyne seems good (based on the products and colone smells) they haven't learned girls really don't want to stick to the floor or see last weeks dirty pots and pans in the sink. </p>

<p>My take on them:</p>

<p>While they do "dumb" things, they don't do "STUPID" things. </p>

<p>An example of a Dumb thing:</p>

<p>Milk chuggin contest (inspired by chemistry professor who told them it is impossible to consume a gallon of milk in an hour. they wanted to see for themselves. It's true.) </p>

<p>A stupid thing by comparison:</p>

<p>Driving drunk. They have 2-3 guys (switches around) who job it is to pick up brothers who've been drinking and bring them back. They also use this at house parties to keep track of things. </p>

<p>While in the begining I totally expected what the poster and some others have cited, in reality, it just hasn't happened. He's met some great guys, learned a new sport, made the dean's list and had a great time. </p>

<p>So again, it isn't always a certain bad experience. Do some homework, listen to pros and cons and see what holds up. In our case, he ended up with a decent group of guys... not choirboys (actually he's in choir too) but certainly not devils some are painting here.</p>

<p>It really does come down to who you rasied, if you can't trust what you've grown for 18 years, should you be blaming someone else?</p>

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<p>Pledging a fraternity can be an intense time commitment. But as a freshman who recently pledged, I?d like to briefly offer a few comments. </p>

<p>Rileydog's son obviously had a difficult time. But stories like his are the exception, not the norm. Many, many students rush, pledge, and remain involved in fraternities, while still excelling in academics and extracurricular activities. </p>

<p>At my school (USC), the average GPA of fraternity members is higher than the average GPA of non-Greeks. And many Greeks are actively involved in campus organizations (the new Editor-in-Chief of the Daily Trojan, for instance, is a fraternity member). </p>

<p>It'd be cliche for me to comment on the large number of prominent CEOs, politicians, and community leaders who were fraternity-members. But it is a point worth considering. </p>

<p>Fraternities are under significant pressure to maintain high house GPAs and they will often offer strong academic support to facilitate this. Many require study hall sessions, at least for pledges. Additionally, younger students benefit from the presence of upperclassmen. If an underclassmen is struggling in a given class, chances are that someone else in the house already took the class and did well in it. This kind of informal tutoring takes place all the time, and in my opinion, the mentorship offered by older students to younger students is one of the greatest benefits of fraternity membership. </p>

<p>Interesteddad said: "My daughter's school as two remaining frats. For the most part, they integrate into the broader campus reasonably well and have membership well under 10% of the male students, but still account for virtually all of the alcohol related mayhem and destruction on campus."</p>

<p>I can't speak for your daughter's school, but if it's anything like mine, this is mostly illusion. It looks like Greeks cause all the "alcohol-related mayhem" because non-Greeks don't party on campus. They go out to clubs on Sunset. They go to off-campus apartment parties. </p>

<p>Don't be fooled: fraternities are not the be-all and end-all of alcohol problems. If you don't like the idea of your kids going to fraternity parties, I can hardly imagine that you'd feel better about them partying with the creeps that often frequent Hollywood clubs. </p>

<p>Not to say that everyone in college drinks and parties - far from it. Many students - Greek and non-Greek - avoid both the frat-party scene and the clubbing scene. I just don?t want any parents to fool themselves into thinking that alcohol-related problems would be eliminated if only fraternities would be eliminated. They wouldn't go away at all, they'd simply change in form (change for the worse, in my opinion). </p>

<p>Fraternities, despite the stereotypes, offer students a chance to form a solid network of close friends, bringing a greater sense of community to universities that might otherwise feel overwhelming.</p>

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<p>When I started college 30 years ago, I did not go through rush. At the end of freshman year, I felt my social circle was not as fulfilling as I had hoped. So I went through rush as a sophomore, and although many of the experiences seemed "dumb" at the time, I stuck it out and was ultimately rewarded with a tremendous payoff. Thirty years later, my 5 best friends are still those fellow pledges. Through thick and thin and geographical separations, we have maintained a special friendship "bond." I believe this is a common experience among Greeks, and a rare one among non-Greeks.</p>