<p>My experience is different. My kids and their friends have all had a pretty clear idea of what was available and framed their applications with this in mind. Often they were told that the family could and would afford in state tuition, we have an excellent though huge state flagship and a number of lesser second or third tier state schhols. If the child chose to apply elsewhere and was admitted it was their responsibility to cover the difference. Others new the dollar amount in their college funds etc and used that to frame their decision. I can't think of one of my childrens' friends that was faced with the sticker shock that these kids are communicating.</p>
<p>Teenagers are by definition not-yet-mature. So, it is sort of illogical and circular to blame the mindset and behavior of high school kids on immaturity. </p>
<p>"Adolescence is the transitional stage of development between childhood and full adulthood, representing the period of time during which a person is biologically adult but emotionally not at full maturity."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage</p>
<p>And dreams by definition are not based on reality.</p>
<p>And while I agree with the posters above that this is more of a parental issue, I disagree that a child should be steered away from his dreams. Is it better to give up before you even try? "Tis better to have loved and lost then never to have loved at all." St. Augustine </p>
<p>Most of the fun of buying a lottery ticket is in the dreaming, not the reality.</p>
<p>"I disagree that a child should be steered away from his dreams. Is it better to give up before you even try? "Tis better to have loved and lost then never to have loved at all." St. Augustine </p>
<p>"</p>
<p>IMO, fine to encourage a kid to apply to a dream school that the parents know that they can not afford (even with the need-based aid the school is likely to offer). It's fine if -- the parents also make reality clear to the kid -- that if the kid were to get in, the kid would need to have raised major merit aid plus probably take out loans and work during the school year and summers in order to afford the college.</p>
<p>IMO it's not fine to steer a kid blindly toward a dream school while acting like everything will automatically be fine even though the parents know that they can't afford the college.</p>
<p>I do want to add that I do not not that many families where the kids absolutely could not go to HPY and like because of money. In some cases, the parents just did not want to sell property or compromise their nesteggs, but most of the time,nearly all of the time, something is worked out.</p>
<p>The biggest pitfall I see for families, and this just kills me, is when I see families break their back and banks to send a kid to a school or program that is just unaffordable and not worth it. It is still mind boggling to me and I see this too many times. I know a single mom who is a school teacher who went into terrible debt sending her son to Pitt as though he came from a family with money, because she could not bear to have him share the brunt of the reality of their finances. He did not work. He went abroad. He lived in a place with his friends. His mother was determined that he would have a full college experience as if she could afford it. I see other families put their kids in a private school that is really not worth the money....the kid just got hooked on the school for some truly stupid reason, and it becomes the object of desire. And the family goes into debt when some public options are much more practical and really serves the purpose better. My friend has a step daughter who is taking out $15K a year in loans to go to a business type college that none of us have ever heard about. Her friends are going there so of course it is to die for. And her mother and grandmother are doing everything they can for her to go there instead of an number of good state optons she may have. The girl is going to come out of there with $60K in debt and I doubt she will find a job paying anywhere near enough to easily repay the money. Plus her grandmother and mother are scrimping for this "prize" school. People get caught up in this because they so want to give their kid what he wants, and sometimes the reasoning is not there.</p>
<p>Though teenagers are by definition less than fully mature they should be getting close by the time they head off to college. If not they are probably not mature enough to leave home. They are going to be faced with many decisions that require them to balance benefit vs cost and if they are not able to do it they are at great risk of wasting their college investment.</p>
<p><<though teenagers="" are="" by="" definition="" less="" than="" fully="" mature="" they="" should="" be="" getting="" close="" the="" time="" head="" off="" to="" college.="" if="" not="" probably="" enough="" leave="" home.="" going="" faced="" with="" many="" decisions="" that="" require="" them="" balance="" benefit="" vs="" cost="" and="" able="" do="" it="" at="" great="" risk="" of="" wasting="" their="" college="" investment.="">></though></p>
<p>You're not much of an optimist, are ya?</p>
<p>Anyway, most posts like this should really be phrased "My child would not have had to turn down the college b/c of money, so why did you take his spot?"</p>
<p>That's not true at all. My children applied to a variety of schools. A safety/saftey one we knew they could get into and that we could afford without merit or need based aid and a range of others. Each have ahd schools on their list that we thought they would get into but that we expected they would not get enough aid to afford. They knew this going into it. If they fell in love then there job would be to apply for every scholarchip available. Since they are fairly normal teenagers the work involved in that seemed excessive so they kept there emotions and expectations in check. My D is in the process of making the same kind of decision that many of you are. She is accepted at 7 schools, 2 large ones that are affordable but she doesn't like, 2 small LAC's one with excelletn aid but that aren't good fits, and 3 excellent schools, not Ivys, but all top tier LAC's. Two of the 3 have given her enough merit aid that we can afford it, if she works summers and while at school, the third has offered her merit aid that will help but will still leave her with at least 20k of debt on graduation. Not a huge burden but enough. She has reasonable choices because we tried to look realistically at the situation before she got her heart set on any school. She will decide after her last accepted student visit this week. She wants to make sure that she has all the information before deciding. </p>
<p>And as to my statement regarding the necessary maturity it is a result of seeing far too many students who have made a mess of their college experiences due to lack of maturity. I teach at a cc and see many students come to us each year after earning less than 2 or less than 1 gpas at other universities becasue they didn't have the maturity to make good decisions. Success in college involves more than academic preparedness and unlike any previous record it doesn't go away. I have had several very bright, very quailified students find their way back to the cc burdened with a terrible gpa. I had one student who had been accepted at a top 25 LAC but decided winter in Minnesota was just too cold and Yukon Jack in his dorm room was much warmer. Needless to say his parents refused to subsidize him after receiving his report card with a 1.2 gpa. He came to us worked very hard and got straight A's. He had been a straight A student at a prstigious private prep, he didn't lack intelligence. After completeing the 2 year program he applied for transfer to our mid-level, not flagship, state university. His gpa was still too low and he was rejected. He spent a third year at the cc, retaking classes he had taking at the LAC and paseed but with less than an A and trying to raise his gpa. At the end of that year he was admitted to the state school. Academics preparation is important but so is maturity. If you lack either one you can make your future much more challenging.</p>
<p>You're imputing all these life experiences on kids who are just venting b/c they might not have the financial resources to attend their dream schoosl. </p>
<p>Maybe it's enough just to say "gee, that sucks"? And to encourage them to think positive as they move forward?</p>
<p>I've never quite understood the concept of retroactive advice. </p>
<p>Yet another quote, I am having a quote kinda day. "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." Maya Angelou</p>
<p>Dream on.</p>
<p>Even if the parents are completely aboveboard with the fact that the non-merit aid schools may be a huge stretch, or completely out of the question unless a great financial aid package is forthcoming, this is an ambiguity that may be tough for a kid to comprehend if they get in and want to attend. In our case, as I have mentioned, there was the odd situation with the non-custodial parent - no way to predict how the colleges were going to consider that circumstance in a financial aid decision.</p>
<p>Even with no false promises made, no hint of "bait and switch," it is disappointing for both parents and students to have to make a prudent assessment of where the economy is going, look down the road 5-10 years, and determine the family's willingness to undertake one degree or another of financial risk, given their specific situation within the overall economic climate. It would be much more fun to wave a wand and conjure up the dough - sufficient to ensure that money is no object!</p>
<p>This unpalatable turn of events, which we can expect to be an ever-increasing difficulty for more and more middle class and upper middle class families, reminds me of one of my philosophy professors, who reminded us that "Socrates only taught the rich." (Big uproar in the egalitarian, liberal classroom of the 70s) "Why?" "Because they had complete freedom to choose - 'shall I be a poet?' 'an architect?' ' a philosopher?'" </p>
<p>Perhaps the elite colleges are moving further towards that polarity - where only the moderately+ wealthy and those of quite straitened circumstances can attend, the rest are just left out unless they are willing to bite the bullet. The college's assumption that 'you should be able (and willing) to pay' may be increasingly out of kilter as the economic climate falters.</p>
<p>I do not think that, in general, we should blame either the students or the parents - the times they are a-changin'</p>
<p>I know a senior at my high school who's been facing a similiar problem and for the past few weeks was planning to attend a state school. However, ever since he received acceptance letters earlier this month, he's been searching and applying to various scholarships. As a result, he's now considering going to a private college; however, nothing is for certain in his case - it's all in a flux.</p>
<p>(Great Socrates quote, by the way.) </p>
<p>Thanks for your post. I totally agree.</p>
<p>I'm in a fix-- I'm not wealthy, but apparently-- on paper-- wealthy enough to pay 40,000+k for college EVERY year. That isn't true at all. My family is under strain as it is. Add to that tens of thousands of dollars for just one year of school-- it's a very hard decision whether I should go to my dream school or not, simply because of the money issue. I know my dream school is where I'll be happiest and get the BEST education, but I don't want to break my parents' backs. </p>
<p>To reitarate your point, yulsie: The kids getting decent fin. aid these days are those who are poor and disadvantaged-- and I am very glad that they are getting aid. And the wealthy, well, it doesn't matter if they're not bright enough to get scholarships, because they can afford full tuition anyway.</p>
<p>It's the regular, middle-class and more upper-middle class kids (like me and many of the others at CC or anywhere, really) that are totally getting screwed. Just because our parents make a decent amount of money every year DOESN'T mean that they can also shell out 40,000 dollars a year, either. </p>
<p>I think perhaps the best option for me now is to go to the scholarship school, get some GEs out of the way while paying practically nothing, try to do extremely well academically, and then transfer out for sophomore year, hopefully being able to net a nice scholarship at the new school. It's just a pain in the neck to go through all that, plus all the psychological issues one goes through by starting at a new school late, and trying to get into sync with the already differently-educated, different-culturally acclimated kids.</p>
<p>Whatever. I have less than two weeks to decide.</p>
<p>"It's the regular, middle-class and more upper-middle class kids (like me and many of the others at CC or anywhere, really) that are totally getting screwed. Just because our parents make a decent amount of money every year DOESN'T mean that they can also shell out 40,000 dollars a year, either. "</p>
<p>We actually fall into that category, but I don't consider us as "totally getting screwed."</p>
<p>Yes, it would be very difficult for us to pay $40,000 + for college for S. Still, there are many good alternatives, including colleges offering great merit aid. </p>
<p>Given a choice between being very poor and S's having to sell blood in order to help pay for college (and when I taught college at a low cost state university, I knew students who had to do things like that) and S's having to pass up a first choice college for a place giving merit aid, I'd choose the latter.</p>
<p>I also am fairly sure that S will not have to drop out of a low cost state college because he can't afford the costs, which is what I saw lots of students have to do. Some took 7 or 8 years to finish because costs that would have been easy for my family to pay were very steep for them. As is the case with many public institutions, the college where I taught did not guarantee to meet 100% of students' documented need. Many very low income students did not get much aid or had to take out huge loans.</p>
<p>I feel really fortunate that we are middle class. The advantages for S certainly outweigh the disadvantages when it comes to going to college.</p>
<p>Northstar,</p>
<p>Would you still feel OK if you stretched and sent your kid to the $45K school, knowing that you are subsidizing 50% of the class not paying full freight?</p>
<p>Just curious.</p>
<p>"Would you still feel OK if you stretched and sent your kid to the $45K school, knowing that you are subsidizing 50% of the class not paying full freight?"</p>
<p>If S didn't get merit aid and didn't qualify for need-based aid, yes, I would feel that things were OK. That isn't, however, a choice that I would select because I believe that for virtually any student, there are a variety of colleges where the student could learn and be fulfilled. </p>
<p>I would not stretch and send my kid to the $45 k school when I know that there are colleges where I could spend $20 k-$25 k and S would be equally happy and educated.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, I agree with you 100%. There are many outstanding schools that offer very generous merit aid. There are also a number of excellent schools that are recognized as being great values, under-priced relative to their peer institutions. Students and parents need to realistically evaluate both their ability to be admitted to an institution and their ability to pay for it. That doesn't mean you don't apply to HYPSM because you can't afford the sticker price but that you go into it with realistic expectations. First that they will receive 1000's of applications from wonderful, brilliant, talented students just like you so getting in isn't guaranteed and second that need based aid almost never meets what you think the need is and that part of the package will include loans. With a skeptical attitude a student will recognize the need to apply to other schools where both issues are nearer to a certainty and won't now be faced with going off to a school next fall miserable that they aren't going to their "dream school".</p>
<p>I think you put it very well, Northstarmom. Middle income families have choices, whereas those who are lower income do not or have very limited ones with just a few exceptions. I think when we look at this forum we see too many of these exceptions making it seem as thought the 100% need provided, top colleges are giving away so much money to low income kids. Statistically that is not the case. If you look at the number of true low income kids at those schools (Mini's Pell grant numbers are a good indicator), you will see that there really are not many. Most of the kids accepted consider themselves middle income and it is the choices that are painful. Most of us do tend to define the lowest possible standard of living for us as how we are living today. We NEED to live in this neighborhood, in this house, we need this and that. We are not well to do, this is just modest living. There is a big gap between that lifestyle and the truly poor who are getting full financial packages. </p>
<p>There are truly very few schools that give 100% of need and even most of them seem heavy on loans from the postings I have been reading. It is not as though the money is there for the picking even for those who need it. They too have to squeeze, but they have a lot less to squeeze, fewer alternatives. When a family makes $20K a year, scraping up even a few hundred dollars is a big problem.</p>