<p>We were looking in New York and Mass. for colleges and Fordham (rosemont) was ranked fairly well in Peterson's guidebook and on other lists. Not top 25 but top 75. If a kid is borderline Ivy or top L.A.S., would Fordham be a "safety" school or would you suggest some other colleges. My son's guidance counselor (could be better) said he should apply to Amherst,Wesleyan, etc. but have some backup since the competition is so stiff and in her opinion, graduate school is the one that counts. I've heard that many times, but you still want a solid 4 year program. Thanks for any tips or info if you know someone that went there.</p>
<p>I would say yes, Fordham could potentially be a safety. Of course, it is hard to say for sure without the actual stats we're talking about. And, Fordham is getting more competitive each year.</p>
<p>I have heard that. A college review site by students had a couple of seniors saying that it is getting more competitive and the average stats are rising. My son is a junior and an honors student, takes at least 3-4 honors class's (2 AP next year) has a 3.94 gpa (weighted 3.70) did 60,60 and 50 on verbal for his PSAT but didn't study for it. He has EC's he likes, etc. but isn't an overachiever. He wants to do well, but doesn't use up limited free time studying excessively. An easy example is when he hears of a kid taking a 4000.00 course for 7 weeks over the summer, he is glad we can't afford it. He would do 2 or 3 weeks maybe, but not the whole vacation. Hasn't taken the SAT or ACT yet, but will in May. He leans toward the ACT because it seems more suited to him and it's only 1 test vs two or three.</p>
<p>My guess is that if his SAT or ACT scores are similiar to those PSAT scores, Fordham will be a match, not a safety. </p>
<p>Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that the guidance counselor is pushing schools like Amherst or Wesleyan. His PSAT scores don't really put him
in the range for those schools and his unweighted GPA is not really exceptional for that caliber of school. His lackluster EC's won't stand out either. </p>
<p>I would call Amherst a high reach but perhaps the guidance counselor knows something I don't. Is he an Under-represented minority perhaps? Or exceptional in sports? Then the suggestion to aim at Amherst and Wesleyan would make a bit more sense in my mind. In any case, I'm not sure I'd call him a "borderline ivy" unless there is more to the story that you haven't said. You might want to read through the individual school threads to get a better sense of how your son might compare. He could be helped, perhaps, by applying Early Decision but if financial aid is an issue for you, you might not want to go that route because it will not allow you to compare aid packages.</p>
<p>More realistic reaches for your son might be schools like Colgate, Colby, Bates, Connecticut College. Skidmore, Lafayette, Bowdoin. Of course, if his SATs turn out to be outstanding (say 1300 plus on math and verbal alone - he especially needs to get that verbal up), or there are other circumstances such as URM status, then I could very well be way off base. And, of course, the guidance counselor probably has a better sense than I do of your son's class rank and how people at his school have faired at those types of schools in the past.</p>
<p>If the SATs don't come up, you might take a look at the schools listed on <a href="http://www.fairtest.org%5B/url%5D">www.fairtest.org</a> where submitting SATs is optional. There are some very good schools on the list.</p>
<p>But, I'd be very sure to steer him towards some more solid matches and definite safeties just in case those SAT/ACT scores don't pan out.</p>
<p>Wanted to give you a few specific data points.</p>
<p>Fordham
Accepts 54% of students
Average H.S. GPA (unweighted) 3.6
25-75 percentile SAT scores
combined: 1090-1282
Verbal 540-642
Math 550-640
Note: your son falls in the 25-50 percentile on SAT scores and his unweighted GPA of 3.7 is pretty close to the mean. I'd say Fordham is a match.</p>
<p>Amherst
18% of regular decision applicants accepted
82% in top 10% of their high school class
No GPA info. available
25-75 percentile SATs
Combined 1320-1540
Verbal 660-770
Math 660-770
To consider Amherst a realistic reach, I'd say your son needs to get his M/V SATs close to 1400's so he is solidly in the middle of the pack.
ACT median 29-34</p>
<p>Wesleyan
27% of regular decision applicants accepted
73% in top 10 of high school class
No GPA info. available
Test scores
Combined 25-75 percentile: 1290-1460
Verbal 650-720
Math 640-740
To consider Wes a realistic reach, I'd say he needs to get his test scores into the mid-1300's.</p>
<p>Hope this helps. I don't mean to be discouraging, and I tend to be overly cautious, but I also believe it's better to focus on realistic reaches, matches and safeties. No harm in having one or two high reaches on the list but they shouldn't be the exclusive focus either. I'd especially avoid focusing on them before you know for sure that his SATs are going to be in range. In the meantime, look at schools that are solidly in his current range, maybe just a bump or two higher. There's a huge range of terrific and solid schools between Fordham and Amherst!</p>
<p>And by the way, I'm not sure what you meant by the ACT being only one test vs. 2 or 3. The ACT actually has 5 sections now, compared to the new SAT which has 3. Of course, you may be talking about the SAT subject tests which your son will need in addition to the SATs for the Ivies and many of the highest ranked schools. You might want to make sure he is signed up for the SAT II tests for June. That way, he will have a second chance to take the SAT I in October if he needs to.</p>
<p>I wouldn't decide his chances base don his psat score. Mine went up a LOT from psat to sat, as did most of my friends'. I would say that at this point Fordham is a safety/match. If he gets a 1450 he's up for a full scholarship.</p>
<p>Yes, I agree totally with you dressagechick. SAT scores can often be higher than the PSAT scores. But he scored 1100 on his PSAT, with a 500 in verbal. Getting a 1100 PSAT score up to 1450 is an iffy proposition under the best of circumstances. That's a 300-plus point rise. The average increase is around 100 points so he'll have to do some MAJOR prep work to get a 300 point increase. Just getting his verbal into the 700 range from a 500 is going to be a challenge as the critical reading section is the hardest to "study" for. That's not to say it won't happen but nothing is definite until it DOES happen.</p>
<p>Thus, I think it would pay to be on the conservative side with his preliminary list UNTIL he has that 1400 or better SAT score in hand. Once he definitely has scores in that range, he can add those high reaches to his list. </p>
<p>If he had outstanding extracurriculars, had already taken a full slate of AP classes (he is taking his first two next year) or was an URM or an athlete who might be recruited, that would be a different story. Again, some of that may be in there but working just with the information his mother provided, I don't see anything that sets him apart from the many other candidates who will be aiming at those schools. With acceptance rates below 20% like Amherst and the ivies, you better have something unique to offer if you're not yet in the "ballpark"</p>
<p>In the meantime, he should be looking at more realistic reaches, matches and safeties. It's easy to add those "prestige" schools on the list down the road because there is so much information about them out there; it's much harder and time consuming to identify and research realistic reaches and matches.
A good starting point would be the schools that don't look at SAT scores - there are some excellent choices in that category. (<a href="http://www.fairtest.org%5B/url%5D">www.fairtest.org</a>) That way, even if his SAT scores don't go up much, he'd still have a solid shot at excellent schools such as Bowdoin, Bates, Colby, Dickinson, Connecticut College, etc.</p>
<p>Again, I tend to be cautious because I've seen too many stories of kids who ignored the realistic reach-match-safety search, only focused on those high reaches, and then ended up either not getting in anywhere or having to settle for a lesser school than they could have attended simply because they never identified any possibilities in between. As I said, there's a wide range of schools between Amherst and Fordham. I'd make sure my child considered the full spectrum and fell in love with many options.</p>
<p>I know his PSAT wasn't stellar but he really didn't study at all, it was a test to see how he would do without studying (didn't tell me this until test was over) He always test higher on the preps (online/book) and is strong in math and vocab. His reading was much lower than the year before because he said he skimmed somewhat and didn't really apply himself. I can't control that, just sigh. : )Even with those scores, he got TONS of mail from colleges saying they liked them.(?) He doesn't have a lot of EC's but he does what he cares about and Wes and Amherst said they like that. He tutors children a couple of hours a week, plays in Scrabble/Chess touraments, sings in regional chior,plays B.ball, etc. His school didn't offer a lot on AP courses and had strict requirments for getting them or even some high honors classes. (catholic school) He was shocked what some schools offered when he saw 6 AP's on some forums. I think Amherst is a BIG reach, but a relative went to Wes and said they are a lot more understanding of what school you went too, what was offered, etc. He's taking him next week to look at it. I want him to have a range on the conservative side, but I think his teachers/counselor know what he's capable of and want him to not lock himself in. I agree though, waiting until he takes the tests a couple of times will say more. His senior friend went up 300 points in his second try! He liked ACT because it was one big test and aptitude, and not a 4 hour test and then 2 or 3 seperate subject tests, but he'll take those too. I appreciate the feedback and wish everyone well. One last note, the fact his father and I didn't attend college was also brought up, but I don't know how much that matters.</p>
<p>Debruns, Again, I'm not trying to be discouraging. I'm sure your son is a fine young man. But, just keep that 18% admissions rate in mind when looking at Amherst and similar schools. Doesn't mean he shouldn't apply, doesn't mean he won't get in, but it is best to help him fall in love with some of the other great schools out there where he will have more than an 18% chance of acceptance. Extracurriculars are very important at top level schools and he will be competing with kids who done amazing things. But, of course, his guidance counselor and you know him better than I do!</p>
<p>As I said, there's a big range of schools between Fordham and Amherst.
There are many excellent schools out there that will not limit him or lock him in and, of course, if money is going to be any sort of an issue you need to cast a wide net to be sure you get the best aid and merit scholarships. This site is a great place to learn more --- I'd suggest you visit the parent forum here and ask other parents besides me to give you some additional suggestions about various school options. Best of luck to your son!</p>
<p>He didn't want a very small school andwe are looking at other schools in New York and Mass. and Rhode Island. He didn't love Amherst really, but got a weekend visit email for the fall. Wes will probably be his reach, but on the Princeton Review, it was a match. Who could figure these things?
Where does your daughter want to go?</p>
<p>i believe you asked about fordham. it has a beautiful campus with mostly gothic architecture. it is not a harvard or a princeton but it is probably a better school than about 90% of the colleges in the u.s.. across the street from fordham is the bronx botanical gardens and what used to be known as the bronx zoo. the surrounding neighborhood is not the best but i would not call it dangerous. i believe most fordham students would describe the social life at fordham as very good.</p>
<p>Thanks ursdad, we will see it on our N.York tour. I remember, unless I mixed the name up with someone else, that you had a son at James Madison. My niece is there and a sophmore and loves it. Lots of work this year, but she's doing very well. Being in CT, my sister just wishes she a little bit closer.</p>
<p>Debruns, One other thing I wanted to mention. There is a world of difference in terms of the student culture at Fordham and Wesleyan. Fordham students tend to be more conservative, both politically AND socially. Wes students tend to be very liberal. Do suggest to your son that he keep an open mind when he visits and I would encourage him to do an overnight to see if Wes is a fit.</p>
<p>Some other excellent schools besides those I mentioned above that your son might want to take a look at include:</p>
<p>High reach: Williams College, Swarthmore, Brown, U of Pennsylvania</p>
<p>Realistic reaches: Boston College, Vassar, Tufts, Oberlin, Colgate, Bowdoin, Cornell, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Haverford</p>
<p>Possible Matches: Skidmore, Dickinson, Kenyon, Lafayette, Bucknell, Franklin & Marshall, Muhlenberg, Gettysburg, Villanova, Loyola College of Maryland, Boston U, University of Rochester, Lehigh, Bates, Colby,
Wheaton College (Mass), George Washington U, Catholic U, U of Maryland-College Park.</p>
<p>Possible safeties: Marist, Fairfield, Providence College, Goucher College, Syracuse U, Alfred University, American U, SUNY Binghamton, Rutgers (Honors college), Penn State (Honors College), U of Pittsburgh, the College of Wooster.</p>
<p>Thanks, he is aware of that. He's down the middle, so his visit will help. Boston College visited his school and the guy liked him. Tried to sell him on the 3 chiors,etc. since he sung too. Quite a few kids go to BC from his school, it being catholic, but it's usually a good mix. He always had a multi-cultural school and hates the thought of just preppy rich kids with no diversity, but says he'll keep an open mind. At Wes, I think he'll see a LOT of diversity of all kinds! I will look at your list for schools I might of missed. Thanks again.</p>
<p>Might want to look at Holy Cross-Jesuit school with a great national academic reputation. Fordham is getting better over the years but not in same category as Holy Cross, Bucknell or Colgate. Also Boston College is popular but question its academic tradition as it was a commuter school until 20 years ago and mostly not strong in grad placement.</p>
<p>Debruns, </p>
<p>Anything is possible with crazy college admissions these days, and it seems you are keeping things in perspective, but I have to agree with carolyn. To be competitive he'd have to bring SAT's up a good 100 points on each, and even then he'd be on the lower end of Wesleyan/Amherst. I think they will be significant reaches for him unless I am missing something, which is entirely possible. Don't judge anything by the amount of mail he is receiving.</p>
<p>Of course it's not all about just SAT's but with only 2 AP's next year he'll be competing with kids who have many more. And if that's all your school offers they may expect him to have taken courses at a nearby college or community college if he is beyond what the school has to offer. His activities are good and he sounds like a well-rounded kid but schools of this calibre look for something special or different, or one or two activities where the student has devoted a lot of time to get to a high level.</p>
<p>I agree with you. I know he didn't prep at all and was not feeling well, so I think I will see a definite change, he usually tests pretty well and his PSAT scores were higher before. His school frowned on community college courses and this year, he can get permission, but it's up to them. It's so strict there that he had a teacher tell him in his freshman year (with all 90-95 grades) that he would sign for an honors class if he just took 2. If he was taking 3, he wouldn't. I was "huh?" I know there is a lot of favoritism, but this was crazy. I went to the office and he got 3 which he did very well in. It's always a hassle though. My relative that graduated from Wesleyan said they would note that, they know the schools, and to try to get a community college course this summer. He didn't take any extra courses and went to a big city school, but they saw something in his "uniqueness" (he is a Wes guy in a number of ways) I know I mentioned Amherst, but that was just because he got a weekend offer to stay there this fall. Brown was the one that the school thought, depending on grades, etc. that was more flexible. They had a few students go there in the past. We have to compile a list of 10-15 for his guidance counselor, so I am taking recommendations on a pretty good range and researching with him. Hopefully we can see a few before May. His heart isn't set on any "reach" schools, so he wont be crushed. If he works hard at a good college, he can have a shot at going to grad school at a more competitive college. That, I must say, I see more often than not.</p>