^ I wouldn’t overestimate the effect of #6. Adcoms certainly want to see that you have challenged yourself and have a rigorous course load, but as far as “I personally take as many AP courses as possible”, it won’t help beyond a certain point, and if it impacts your GPA, standardized test scores, or participation in ECs then taking more beyond a certain point could have a net negative effect.
Serendipitously, we had a college info night last night and I was able to ask my D’s counselor to define “Most Rigorous” as viewed by the selective state flagship in light of the heavy use of APs at my D’s school. the GC is a graduate of the flagship and claims to have good knowledge of how they evaluate applicants. I specifically asked “Is it just about collecting APs and padding GPA?” Her answer was no, the AO is not looking for the number of APs, they are looking at the sequencing of courses and the implied motivation of the student to succeed. The best applicants do take a lot of APs, but the right APs with the right motivation.
In a previous post I said 7 APs were seen as “very rigorous” but not “most rigorous” here is the rationale:
While 7 APs is “very rigorous”, since the APs to be taken are not specified, they could be just a mis-mosh of subjects like AP Human Geo, AP STAT, AP PSYCH, APES, AP Art History, AP GOV, AP ECON. This course selection, while boosting GPA, would not demonstrate the motivation of the student to consistently challenge them self to succeed. So the number of APs alone do not make a schedule “most rigorous.”
Most rigorous would include the following:
- A sequence of math that ends in AP Calc, preferably BC Calc, but AB would be OK. The CG recommended AP Stat for college credit if it could be worked in, but it does not distinguish an applicant. If you are qualified to take Calc, then take Calc, not STATS!
- At least one AP Science with lab A student does not need to take all AP Sciences, but once they move to AP, they should continue to take AP sciences. My D took Honors Bio, Honors Chemistry and is in AP Physics 1 now. The CG suggests retaking Bio as an AP in senior year, that sequence would be evaluated as challenging herself to take the next step, plus she could get meaningful college credit. Taking APES when there is option to take a core AP lab science, even if it is a retake of an honors course, would not be viewed as the most rigorous option. Either of the AP Physic Cs are well respected but not expected of all applicants.
- Social Sciences starting with Human Geo and sequencing through AP World, AP USH, AP GOV. Key here is while Human Geo may not be viewed as most rigorous by itself, when part of a sequence that gives the student an AP Social Science every year, demostrates the student continuing to challenge themselves. AP Gov is not seen as most rigorous, but dropping back to Honors Gov in senior year would appear to be slacking off.
- Four years of a world language culminating in AP in level four is most rigorous, but it sounded like if a student only had three years due to starting late or scheduling conflicts it would not be detrimental.
So, taking the following 8 APs would not be viewed as most rigorous (think cherry picking):
AP Human Geo
AP STAT
AP PSYCH
APES
AP Art History
AP GOV
AP ECON
AP Eng Lang
While the following 8 may be seen as most rigorous (think building a sequence and taking on challenges):
AP Calc AB
AP Physics 1
AP Eng Lang
AP Lit
AP World
AP USH
AP Gov
AP Econ
If a student takes on more APs due to interest or desire for college credit, that’s good, but not necessarily a boost. Also the expectation is mostly all As in APs, along with strong EC and test scores.
Please note, this applies to a specific instance of my D’s AP heavy school and our selective state flagship. But, the bottom line is the AOs know what to look for in their applicants, they are not impressed with cherry picking or piling on APs.
Interesting analysis, but you don’t address what many students face. If you are in an AP class, but don’t feel you will do well on the test, should you:
A. Not take the test
B. Take the test and not report the results
C. Take the test and report the results
All of these may be red flags, but which is least objectionable?
^ I don’t think I’m qualified to advise between these options, all of which may be red flags, as you note. There as an “Ask the Dean” thread on this recently:
I think the upshot of this discussion was to report all scores of 3 or above, and not report scores of 1 or 2. Not taking the test, or taking it and not reporting the result, may be equated by adcoms with having taken it and scored a 1 or 2. So students may be better off taking fewer AP courses and focusing on doing well on their associated exams then cramming in more and being less prepared.
Generally, I agree with the OP. One does not need to be overwhelmed with AP to be considered “most rigor” by GC. Being overloaded with AP may end up with a lower GPA and that would actually hurt the chance. In addition, not all AP credits are useful. Having extra AP credits would do nothing but may potentially cost you more. For instance, you need to pay upperclassmen tuition rate at UMich once you have 55 credits.
Here is a successful story from my D. She had planned to take 7AP in high school in subjects that would be useful for her intended major. At the end she only got 6 AP between sophomore and senior due to schedule conflict. The school offers 14 AP including 4 for world languages and anyone with 5 or more would be considered most rigor as there are less than 10% students doing that and most of her classes are honor or accelerated anyway. So she only need to prepare up to 3 AP exam (which was her senior year that she has no other test to take) each year and scored 5 in all of them. Without overloading with AP, she maintained GPA 4.0 which is very critical or admission and merit aids. From the 6 AP exam, she got credits for 4 pre-req courses and 4 courses for humanity electives (a total of 33 credits). There were two other AP that would be useful for her major requirement but she could not take due to schedule conflict anyway. Any additional humanity AP credit would be a waste as she does not need any more other than a 300 level class that cannot be fulfilled by AP anyway. At the end, she got admitted into many great schools, received multiple scholarships, can graduate 1-2 semester earlier, and has a very light workload in college (12-15 credit per semester only after freshmen year, which would help her to get better GPA and receive even more scholarships).
^^ @CaucAsianDad, this is a very good discussion, and highlights some important points:
- Curricular rigor, including number of AP courses, needs to be defined in the context of each school.
- It may not be entirely clear what constitutes "most rigorous", so getting guidance from the GC is important. He/she is the one who is going to have to check off the box.
- "The number of APs alone do not make a schedule 'most rigorous.' " I think this is very important. It's key to demonstrate rigor, but that doesn't necessarily equate to number of AP courses. Showing a deliberate and thoughtful approach to course selection with increasing rigor may work well. As you note, "the AO is not looking for the number of APs, they are looking at the sequencing of courses and the implied motivation of the student to succeed."
- "A student does not need to take all AP Sciences, but once they move to AP, they should continue to take AP sciences." I think this is good advice, though at some schools there may be more advanced science courses that are not specifically AP. But the general idea of not going down in rigor is an important one - it could be a red flag.
- "If a student takes on more APs due to interest or desire for college credit, that's good, but not necessarily a boost. Also the expectation is mostly all As in APs, along with strong EC and test scores." More APs beyond a certain point is unlikely to be an admissions boost. There may be other valid reasons for such a course, but not to impress adcoms. And loading up with more at the expense of maintaining GPA and ECs is probably counter-productive.
Thanks for following up.
In the case of my D’s HS, they pay for AP exams and requires all AP tests to be taken to receive HS credit for the class. For the state flagship in question, they do not consider AP exams, you can get a 1 on all them, they do not care. They are looking at how you are matriculating through HS.
You need to know how your target schools evaluate AP courses AND AP scores and incorporate that into your course selection.
21:okay, that makes a lot of sense!
Indeed, AP’s are divided into three, unequal groups: we shall call these groupes “core”, “complementary” and “light”.
The “core” APs are the most important. A very strong student should have one in each subject, or a very strong/well lopsided student would have all in his/her related fields. Those include AP English Lang&Lit, AP Foreign Language, AP bio/chem/physics (1, 2, and C), Calculus (AB or BC), and all AP History. AP Lang is often considered a “given” for high-level colleges where this course is basically the default preparation course for college-level writing.
The “complementary” APs are recognized as having high course rigor but aren’t as “necessary” as the above. Those include AP CS, AP Art History, AP music theory, 2D, 3D, AP Gov, AP Econ (Micro+ macro).
The “AP Lights” are good as complement to core AP’s (ie., AP Bio AND APES, AP Calc AND AP Stats, APUSH AND AP Gov); as a good way to increase rigor for students who are not otherwise taking core/complementary APs, are in regular and honors courses and want to challenge themselves; as gateway courses for freshmen/sophomores to learn about AP rigor and format; as substitute for Honors Classes in HS where the class is only offered as an elective or AP. Those include AP Stats, AP Environmental, AP Human Geog, Ap Psych.
At Harvard, a student who has 7 APs, but the 4 AP lites, AP Lang, AP Gov, and AP Macro, does not have the same schedule as someone who also took 7APs include APLang, AP Physics, APUSh, APHistory, AP Foreign Language, AP Calc AB, and AP 2D, provided both attend the same school and have similar grades. Taking 3-4 per year with 2-3 core, 1-2 complementary/light AP each of junior and senior year, after 1 “gateway” AP freshman/sophomore year, would cover pretty much any scenario a college may wish.
Note that for a student whose HS offers only 8 APs, the first schedule would be considered very, very rigorous.
In any case, a student applying to Harvard with the second schedule (above) wouldn’t be at a disadvantage compared to a student who took 12 or 14 APs, and would be at an advantage if that freed more time to devote to meaningful or unique ECs.
So, it’s not about the number, it’s about how meaningful the choice is (SO glad to hear your GC clearly stated it’s not about how many Aps you take!)
Not sure yet about which group AP Seminar and AP Capstone belong to.
There are plenty of high schools where many people take up to a dozen or more AP classes and I don’t think they feel overwhelmed or get low grades. They do get maximum multiplier for weighted GPA, will get a higher class rank, and if OOS and applying to UCs only AP courses are weighted, so they will help you get in.
Obviously, if you are overwhelmed or fear being overwhelmed, you can either take the easy AP tests or take non-AP classes.
And at college, you can either repeat these classes or get credit and either take less classes or take more advanced or more interesting classes. Again, the advice to repeat Calc 1 or even 2 could be absolutely wrong if the high school has a vigorous AP program and the student is confident of their skills, passes the assessment tests, and is willing to work harder if there are some holes in their prep.
Or you are super ready to get an A in that class (you still want to keep up with the class so you understand the prof’s emphasis and what will be on the tests).
As an aside, taking AP-Econ can place you right into sophomore or higher econ classes and may let you get a minor with very few credits.
If you are really struggling with APs in high school, you should assess whether the classes have really impossible demands or if you are overloading on ECs or if you have poor study habits or inability to do the most essential things to keep up grades (don’t strive for 100%, study efficiently, ask for help etc). This could be an early warning sign that a really rigorous college may be really difficult to … so either fix any issues or maybe be happy to go to a match rather than reach school.
Note that there’s a limit of 8 APs for the UC weighted GPA.