This issue has undoubtedly been discussed before, but has come up a lot in different forms recently. My impression is that a lot of applicants overestimate the value of APs are don’t understand their relative lack of emphasis in admissions, so I thought it was worth putting this out for people. Here’s my take, FWIW:
Having a transcript which is rigorous is important, and AP courses are a common way of showing that applicants push themselves and take a challenging schedule. So that's good. Overcrowding with too many AP courses for the sake of it may be counterproductive, or even harmful, as it may be taken as being obsessed with impressing adcoms. If AP courses are not offered, then no one is penalized for not taking them. IB and DE are valid options.
AP exams do not generally count towards admission. The SAT I/ACT and SAT II scores are what count. Adcoms will be impressed by a bunch of 5's on APs and will certainly take that as supporting evidence that an applicant is able to handle the college workload; but beyond that APs are more for placement and credit than for admissions.
Taking an AP class and not taking the test may be a red flag, as may taking the test and reporting a score less than 3. This may suggest that the class didn't adequately prepare the student. If the applicant did well in the class, then a poor AP score can suggest grade inflation. Doing poorly and not reporting the score is equivalent to taking the class but not taking the test - it will look suspicious.
Taking 10+ AP tests does not particularly impress adcoms, especially if the applicant did not take corresponding courses. Self-studying for an AP can be valid if there is a specific reason (e.g., the applicant is going into physics and AP physics was not offered at their school), but self-studying for a bunch of AP tests will raise questions about what the applicant's priorities are and how he/she might have better used their time. Self-studying for "easy" APs is particularly suspicious of "padding".
There is probably no general need for IB students to take AP exams corresponding to their subject areas.
It seems to me that this is a bit of a tricky issue for students. I’ve seen all kinds of issues come up - too much focus on APs and self-studying, focusing on AP exams more than on SAT/ACT tests, not pushing hard enough to take the most rigorous courses, taking the classes but not the tests, how to handle poor test results, etc.
I’m curious to hear other’s thoughts on these issues.
I agree with all of the points above, with the exception of 5 and partially #4. From what I’ve heard, the AP exams are easier than the IB and so it is easier to gain college credit for an IB course if you also take the AP exam.
In regards to #4, I would also like to add that self-studying is OK if you are trying to earn college credits and potentially save money. This includes “easy” APs like AP Psych and AP stats that might satisfy general education requirements in college.
Couple of things to consider… 1) some colleges do give credit for AP grades, depending on school and score. I’d check the schools you are interested in. Some kids enter their 1st year as sophomore due to AP scores. Other schools only use it for placement and some not at all. 2) if you are looking to be high ranked or Valadictorian in HS you may find others take a crazy amount and to be highly ranked you may them if your school uses weighted GPA. You can have straight A’s in all Honors classes and not get into the top 10% (for example)
Two points: IB kids should consider taking the AP tests if they are looking at schools that will give them credit for AP tests.
Second, my D took APGov and did not take the test. At the time, we didn’t think any school gave credit for it so she didn’t take it. (We later found out we were wrong about that!) Anyway, she reported all of her other scores, but obviously not this one, and she had good results. I’m just putting that out there because I’ve seen a lot of people say it looks really bad not to report a score for a class that’s on a student’s transcript.
1-3 are spot on. I agree with @guineagirl96 's clarification of #4 and offer my own clarification of #5. I’m not so sure that the AP exams are “easier” than IB, but it is easier to earn a 5 on AP than a 7 on IB, which makes sense. So if the college only gives credit for a 7 on IB or a 5 on AP (as is the case with mine), taking the AP exam may make sense.
@guineagirl, I said that self-studying could make sense for particular reasons, such as placement or credit in a particular subject. But not to impress adcoms, and I’d personally recommend making sure it was appropriately targeted. This kind of thing is what I was trying to suggest avoiding:
From an admissions perspective, I’m not sure that self-studying in order to earn credit and save money is something that I would highlight. I’m not sure admissions committees would regard this particularly favorably. It might be better to take the tests but avoid highlighting them for application purposes.
@skieurope, I agree that the specific circumstances can make a difference re IB and AP, which is why I added the qualifier “general”.
My general point was that many applicants over-estimate the value of AP exams for admission purposes, and that over-focusing on these can actually have a detrimental effect.
Self-studying can lead to not being able to find a seat for the exam. For example, our dd is taking Purdue’s CS 180 HS class which prepares students for the AP CS A exam. Finding a local school offering the exam that will allow her a seat is another issue. Some schools refuse to let you sit in on the exam. There is only 1 school anywhere in our area offering it. If they won’t let her take it with their students, she won’t be able to take it. (I’m waiting until after the PSAT to call bc I figure that is their primary focus right now.) Even finding a local school offering some APs like AP Latin or both physics C exams can difficult. So it can be a case that the student completed the equivalent coursework but can’t take the test. (I realize our scenario is atypical, but amg homeschoolers, the issues exist. No simple generalities.)
I also agree with #1-3 and the qualifiers that taking the AP test for an IB class can be useful. (We’ll find out, as my son plans to take the AP Spanish test after taking the IB Spanish SL class this year.)
At our school, some students are advised by the GCs not to bother with the corresponding AP test for dual-enrollment classes offered on the HS campus. They may be unaware that the dual-enrollment credits work fine at any California public, but don’t transfer to privates. At the time they take the dual-enrollment class, they may not have thought about privates or OOS colleges.
Regarding #4, self-study can also be of use in particular subjects where an AP score could permit more advanced coursework during high school.
Going off-topic, but if a school offers any AP courses, it can order an exam even if the course is not offered by the school. Of course, getting the school to agree to order the exam if the student is not matriculated at that HS is another story, but the lack of offering the class should not be an obstacle.
It really is not that easy. Even if you are willing to pay for a proctor, it is not unusual for the answer to be no. This is a source of serious contention for homeschoolers every spring. I had a difficult time finding a school to agree to let my 11th grader sit in for the PSAT. A private school finally agreed.
When CB controls the tests, it seems illogical to not have testing centers which provide equal access similar to SAT and ACT. But, access is up to individual schools. Some districts are more friendly than others.
Some students are ready for college level work in HS, but socially and emotionally are better suited to the HS environment. Maybe this only the top 10%, but there is a group that needs more challenges than the typical HS curriculum provides and a heavy AP course load can fill that gap. If that is seen as “being obsessed with impressing adcoms” that is short sighted.
There are plenty of good universities that highly weight course rigor, the kids that challenge themselves with a heavy AP schedule (and corresponding high GPA) will still be a good fit for those universities. This is reflected in the “GPA of the top 25% of Admitted Freshman” statistic. How do you graduate with a weighted GPA over 4.5, without a heavy AP course load? Look around and you will find PLENTY of schools whose adcoms were impressed with heavy AP course loads.
“If AP courses are not offered, then no one is penalized for not taking them.” - What about the higher achieving students that find regular level classes too easy, they are penalized for not being challenged enough. What about the student that gets a 98% in regular Chemistry with little effort while another student gets a 91%, both get a 4.0. How is that fair to the student who could has done much more, but has no way to show it?
Being in an IB program is not the same as taking AP classes.
DE is not the same as AP. Most AP classes at my D’s school are more rigorous that the corresponding courses at the local CC. Also, the students in the AP classes are the high aptitude / high achievers that tend to push themselves and each other. The local CC, while a good school, mostly caters to those that did not get into a four year college after HS or are returning to school. There are very few “I never made lower than A in my life, and I have a 2250 SAT” in the local CC.
I agree with NCmom14 especially if you are in a Texas school where rank is very important. It is not possible to make it into the top 10% in our high school with out several AP courses, which are weighted.
D will graduate high school with two years of college credit from APs and DE which will allow her to study the wide variety of interests she wishes to pursue (science, math, language, music) and still graduate in four years.
S will follow a similar path with APs and DE but hopes to graduate early to begin working on his masters degree.
You can choose to take credit for the AP or not (if the school accepts them) but you can’t got back and take AP exams once you’re in college.
"They found that students who take more AP or IB courses do better in college – but only up to a certain point. If two students have similar SAT scores and high-school grades, and one takes zero AP courses and the other takes five, the student with five AP courses will probably have a higher first-year GPA (3.26 versus 3.07). But above five courses, there’s no significant increase in GPA.
From now on, when Kretchmar and Farmer read applications, they won’t be looking for more than five AP or IB courses. “There’s no penalty for taking more than five,” Farmer said, “but once you have five, you’ve jumped through the meaningful hoop, as far as we can see.”
Starting with the 2013–14 admissions season, this is how the whole admissions staff reading applications plans to view AP and IB course loads."
@CaucAsianDad, I think you misunderstood my point in #1.
AP classes certainly have a prominent role in a rigorous high school curriculum for most students. The are more common than IB or DE offerings. Whether they are more rigorous depends on the individual school and setting. All students who are applying to competitive or selective colleges should plan to challenge themselves academically through their curriculum, and if AP classes are offered, I would expect to see this as the most common route.
That said, there is plenty of "cramming" that goes on. In some schools, AP courses are not necessarily the most rigorous, but people take them anyway to pad their weighted GPA or make their transcript look superficially more impressive. People check off the number of AP courses and exams they have taken, and sometimes try to squeeze more and more courses in for the sake of appearances, even at the expense of their overall academic experience. The second link in post #5 above is one such example, and it's not an uncommon one. There are schools at which 8 APs are "normal", and where some people feel compelled to take double that number in an attempt to stand out. I would argue that such effort is mis-placed.
"Being in an IB program is not the same as taking AP classes". From an adcom's perspective, it is similar rigor. IBD is a demanding and rigorous curriculum, and attempting to throw in a bunch of AP classes or tests on top of it doesn't necessarily work well. It certainly won't do much for admissions purposes, because being in an IBD program by itself is sufficient to show curricular rigor. As several posters have mentioned, there may be specific cases where taking an AP test makes sense on top of IB, but usually not for admission purposes. The major exception I can think of is taking a second or third science, since IBD generally limits the number of science subjects which are included.
I was NOT advocating in #1 that talented HS students do not take AP classes that are available. That would be ridiculous, and harmful to their competitive status as applicants. But I think a lot of kids go way overboard.
Some schools (like ours) do not provide an honors level of classes between “regular” and “AP.” Our school only offers honor classes for math prior to calculus and English prior to 11th grade. There are no honors classes for science or history.
The AP class can be taken instead of the regular class (not necessarily after). So, kids who aren’t the type that really need the extra challenge are still forced to decide between regular classes where the teachers are told to assign no homework that can’t be done in class (yes, really) and high-workload AP classes. This is because of some plan by the district to make the upper-level classes more integrated and equitable, but it has had the opposite effect. Kids who don’t need all that challenge still end up with ~8 APs just to avoid taking the low-level classes.
@renaissancedad , I generally agree with your points. My point of view is APs should not be seen as a way to make a transcript more impressive, but as a way for some students to get more out of HS. However, if a student is successful with the more rigorous AP work, that should appeal to many selective colleges. If they do not want to give an extra boost to more than 5 APs, that is their choice, but if an adcom penalizes an applicant for more APs because they think they are gaming the systems, that would be unfair. Hopefully, adcoms can look beyond the number of APs taken deduce the motivation.
He is where I am coming from: My D goes to a school heavy with APs (about 30 offered). They offer a diploma option that among other things requires at least 7 AP courses. Getting that designation earns a “very rigorous” check mark from the CG, not “most rigorous” just “very rigorous.” The high achievers (not necessary high GPAs) graduate with at least 10 to 12 APs (and over 40 credits hours toward a degree at a state school!). They are not cramming in APs like the example in the referenced post, but when given the option of an honors vs an AP course, they generally choose the AP course. And the school is not trying to game the system, it is the culture of the school to take advantage of the AP offerings and the free college credit. They take this approach instead of DE. If you do well grade wise, you will be in the top 10%. It is hard to get a meaningful advantage by trying to cram in extra APs, the best gain their advantage through outstanding ECs. I am sure adcoms know the school’s philosophy and evaluate applicants accordingly.
Point of IB not being the same as AP is not that AP is better, but that IB is more structured, some feel too structured for a HS curriculum that should be a little more exploratory. Eliminating APs in favor of IB or DE would not better for all students. My point of view comes from our school district that has AP schools and IB magnet schools. Different kinds of kids thrive in each environment.
“Being in an IBD program by itself is sufficient to show curricular rigor” - Agreed
@Mom2aphysicsgeek - that’s the problem we had with APs and my homeschooler, and I didn’t fool around with it anymore after a struggle trying to find a place for DS to take the AP computer science exam (which ultimately didn’t work out unfortunately). We stuck with dual enrollment instead.
The one downside that I’ve noticed is that the more “elite” schools sometimes give credit for AP where they won’t for DE (many caveats to this idea though). Since DS is probably going to a state school it’s not a big issue for us and it looks like his DE credits will transfer.
@CaucAsianDad, I think that every school situation is different, as many of the posts above show. The school GC can hopefyully speak to an applicant’s curricular rigor and how he/she has taken advantage of the courses available in that school. In your D’s case, taking AP courses to be in the “very rigorous” or preferably “most rigorous” category would make sense. I believe that @gibby’s children had something similar in a highly competitive feeder high school to the Ivy’s, and that the school itself encouraged taking a lot of AP tests. Context is important. Something that is done out of genuine love of learning is different than something done to impress or “game the system”, and presumably that will come out in recommendations and the overall tone of the application. But I think that once you get above 10-12 AP classes, applicants may want to be careful about whether they are creating the impression of obsessing about APs, rather than challenging themselves for the sake of it.
When I was a student I took plenty of AP courses - enough to accumulate a year’s worth of credit at Stanford, which helped allow me to do a double major and get a coterminal master’s degree in 4 years - but I never did it in order to do so, only because I enjoyed the challenge; and I took plenty of non-AP courses that were just as challenging as the AP options, despite the lack of formal designation. Today students seem much more conscious of weighting and the overall appearance of courses on their transcript.
I’m also certainly not suggesting that APs be eliminated in favor of DE or IB courses. Different options do indeed work better for different students.
Not for admission purpose, but for credit purpose it’s important because many SL subjects match AP subjects, and AP will carry credit where SL will not.
No. Their role is different. An AP shows the student can handle rigorous course material and challenges himself or herself. In addition, it allows them to cover a broad base while going in-depth if they really like a subject.
DE however can indicate the student is able to handle more advanced material than AP, especially in sequential fields (ie., Calc BC junior year → Senior Year DE: Multivariable, Discrete Math; or AP Foreign Language junior year → DE Level 4 and 5 or 5 and 6 Senior year).
It also indicates the student is ready for college work - not “college-level”, but actual college work.
APs have 5 class periods a week, hw regulardly scheduled and checked, and cover 1 semester of college material over 10 months. DE classes meet twice or three times a week, require a lot of autonomy and personal work, and cover 1 semester of college material over 4 months.
For adcoms, the best indication of being able to succeed in college classes is previous success in college classes.
For instance, for an advanced student, taking Calculus junior year, then Stats senior year, is a bad move. EITHER take Calc BC senior year and don’t rush, or if you love math take a post-BC class through Running Start/PSEO/DE.
Top colleges consider that 6, 7, 8+ is “most rigorous”. In fact, to them, “most rigorous” does not mean"the most rigorous program a student can physically handle in our school without turning to prescription drugs", but “what the most competitive colleges want to see”. If your GC doesn’t check “most rigorous” for a kid with 7 or 8 APs, the adcoms will smile and think “oh, that insanely competitive school again. Let’s assume this kid has 7 APs… yup… most competitive.” Adcoms aren’t stupid. Just because at some HS a few GCs play games like this doesn’t mean colleges follow suit.
I don’t understand why it’d be frowned upon for a student to take as many APs as possible, I don’t think many AdComs are actively thinking “hmm this student took too many APs, they’re shallow and are trying to impress us.” And in all honesty, most kids take challenging courses to be competitive for college in the first place, it’s just how it is. I personally take as many AP courses as possible because of the following
least boring
best teachers
my friends take them
competitive for ranking at high school
possibly save my dad money for college
college admissions
I just can’t find some logical reason as to why taking “too many” APs is even a genuine concern. Coursework is coursework. Personality can be felt through essays and applications.