<p>First of all, I realize how ignorant this sounds. You only have to take two SAT Subject Tests even for the most prestigious colleges, and anything more is a waste. However, I'm an incoming senior and I'll only have two AP tests to show on my applications. It's not that I've taken easy classes; it's just that pretty much every AP class at my school has the honors version of it as a prerequisite and I just haven't had time to take a lot of AP classes so far due to having to get prereqs out of the way. Of course, this does mean that my schedule, aside from the APs, has been all honors classes (aside from a few art/elective/mandate classes in which honors is not offered). I'm taking five AP classes this coming year, but I won't have any tests to show colleges for them; the best they'll be able to do is see my grades in my previous AP classes and my AP scores, guess that my school probably doesn't practice grade inflation because they confirm each other, and assume that I'll do well on senior-year APs.</p>
<p>I'm not talking about taking seven SAT Subject Tests, but would it be to my benefit to take four or so, just to prove to colleges that I can handle difficult material beyond the requirement of two? If not, what can I do instead? I don't want to have to look like an uncommitted, unintelligent student just because of the way my school's AP curriculum is set up.</p>
<p>Well, I’m sure that colleges will know your school and understand your prerequisites, that’s how Ivies are usually designed. One admissions officer handles one region so they can better understand the school systems.</p>
<p>That being said, yes, it may weigh down on your application that you do not have as many APs, because many students will. I’m not sure that taking SAT II’s can really help too much, but think about it this way, it can’t hurt. It will only show that you are committed to learning even if you can’t finish prereqs in time. </p>
<p>Did you ever think about self-studying APs? You could list that under your senior year plans.</p>
<p>If you are able to explain your situation some way, usually you should be okay. What should matter is that you have a good GPA, SAT/ACT scores, and good SAT II scores.</p>
<p>Emily556, I did try self-studying two APs this past year, but I started way too late and didn’t work hard enough (though I don’t blame myself too much for that because, never having taken any before, I didn’t really know how much work was needed), so I got 2s on both and am going to cancel them. I don’t think that it’s impossible to do well on an AP without a class; I just think one has to treat oneself as though one is. I can self-study a couple APs senior year - in fact, I’ve even been considering doing so for a couple of them - but I’m afraid not only that it’ll be difficult for me to balance the workload with my AP classes (though I guess I can slack off with self-studying until application time and they won’t know) but that it’ll be too little too late.</p>
<p>Other posters, my GPA is good but not great (though I’m bringing it up and they’ll definitely see an upward trend), my ACT score is above average everywhere I’m applying (and, actually, at pretty much every college in the US), my SAT score is about average at the most highly ranked places (I’m retaking it in the fall), and my ECs are good if a little nontraditional. I’ll work on what I can.</p>
<p>The question to ask is when asked how rigorous will has your course load been per your counselor? </p>
<p>ivies are academic powerhouses, the first thing they need to see is that you’re top 10% of your surroundings and that you thrived and succeeded there. Some school require 2-3 SAT II’s take the 2-3 that would be required for those schools. (Math I/II, Science, other)</p>
<p>Ask ivies admissions officers if SAT II’s submitted and not required if they are considered.</p>
<p>You describe your gpa as good not great and you’ve spent time taking honors prereqs not APs. If you are at one of the (somewhat rare) competitive hs where they discourage APs and feel their honors classes are equally rigorous, that’s one thing. If you are behind the top performing kids in your hs, that’s another. Many kids applying to Ivies will have taken a few key honors prereq classes early enough to get in the APs that matter. </p>
<p>Taking more SAT 2’s doesn’t replace the rigor in your schedule that adcoms need to see. That’ll be the real question: does your hs consider (and state) that honors are designed to be as rigorous as APs?</p>
<p>div301, I will likely be in the top 10% by the time I apply. I’m close to being there now. My high school is competitive, though, so it means a lot more than being in the top 10% somewhere else. At this point I’m not sure I have the ability to squeak by on just the required 2-3 SAT IIs. I mean, maybe - that’s why I posted this thread - but what I’m wondering is whether or not - and, if so, by how much - four would be better.</p>
<p>lookingforward, my high school is competitive but I wouldn’t characterize it like that. I don’t know how my school or state look at it, but you can be sure that my school does not practice grade inflation. I’ll admit this right now: I am behind the top-performing kids in my school. Not by a lot, though, and the reason that my rank isn’t higher is that so many people have 4.0s because it’s so competitive. I’m also not willing to give in just because I don’t have one of the best GPAs my school has ever seen; I think I stand out in other ways. The purpose of this thread - and of pretty much my having joined College Confidential - is to milk every last chance I have of getting into one of the best schools possible. I will be taking a lot of AP CLASSES this coming year - it’s just that they won’t have my AP scores - but, doggone it, if more SAT IIs than are required can help me get in, it looks like I’m hitting the books.</p>
<p>since when do schools care about aps much the less use them to make admissions decisions. ive never seen a college that cares about aps. just meet the requirements and stop doing this like weird testing mix and match.</p>
<p>The most competitive schools do care about APs, though they care more about having taken the classes than about just taking the tests. The reason I want to take SAT IIs - aside from the fact that they’re required - is that I have to show colleges that I can do well in advanced work since so many people have more APs than I do. It’s not a “mix and match” any more than taking 15 APs or seven SAT IIs (both of these I’ve seen). You think taking that many is required? No, it isn’t. But it does help you come off as a more capable student.</p>
<p>Of course colleges care about APs, if the hs offers them- and the corresponding grades and scores. The more competitive the college academic environment, the more adcoms need to know a kid has stretched himself and succeeded. </p>
<p>OP, so many applicants will have top grades, through all four years, plus depth, breadth and impact in their activities. Pull copies of the Common App and supps; see how you can best present yourself. I don’t know any of your stats or ECs. Do some thinking about how you have shown leadership, taken on responsibilities with substance (not just the usual hs clubs or occasional easy vol effort,) and committed over time. And, understand that many fine LACs operate as what I sometimes call “mini-Ivies.” They may not have the huge research grants, Nobel scholars, etc, but they have distinguished faculty, push for internship opps, and can be immensely empowering- and that’s what it’s really about. The better ones are usually filled with the same bright, motivated, dogged, competitive kids who had all the goods but simply didnt get into an Ivy.</p>
<p>lookingforward, I’m not in doubt over whether or not I need to show that I’ve stretched myself, only over whether or not more SAT IIs will help toward that end (or whether or not listing AP self-study plans - in addition to an AP-laden senior schedule - will).</p>
<p>The main thing I’m afraid of with regards to APs comes from within my school, not from the entire pool of applicants: My school OFFERS a lot of APs (15 - 20 or so), but due to the setup of the curriculum almost no one takes more than 8 or 9 during his or her entire high school career, and even that many is seen as quite a lot. For example, some people take AP Chem as juniors after taking honors Chem as sophomores; I didn’t because then I wouldn’t have had time for honors Physics (and, subsequently, AP Physics) and because, at my school, AP Chem just isn’t seen as that much more difficult. For another example, I haven’t yet taken AP Calculus (isn’t that sad?), but the only way to take that before senior year is to have done extremely well (like top 2-3% or so) on an aptitude test that’s given in 7th grade (I ALMOST made the cut). However, adcoms may look at my school’s course list and think, “look at all these APs - why hasn’t this student taken them?” Students at most schools don’t have this problem.</p>
<p>OP – I had a similar problem entering my senior year; I had only taken four AP’s (the most of anyone in my grade). I recommend focusing on your SAT II’s, but not necessarily taking a huge number. If you already have perfects on your two or three centerpiece tests, then by all means look into taking a couple more (I’d stop at four or five – that should be more than sufficient) or perhaps upping your ACT or SAT. My one true regret from my senior year (this past year, if it makes a difference for context) is that I didn’t do more to sure up my standardized test scores. </p>
<p>I hoped that a #1 rank (~500 in the senior class), extensive extracurriculars, and near perfects on my tests would be enough. Instead of taking more time to study and improve my tests – because I know there was room for personal improvement if I sacrificed the time from other involvements to put the energy into them – I focused on making an impact in my extracurriculars and athletics (I knew it wouldn’t necessarily show on my app, but it was a point of personal pride). I ended up getting snubbed by all the ivies. </p>
<p>A friend of mine overcame a lower (#3) class rank by taking time away from extracurriculars to bump his SAT II’s from great to perfect as well as turning in a very respectable SAT I score. He was admitted to his first choice (arguably one of the two most prestigious of the ivies). </p>
<p>The fact that I come from an area (and a school) that isn’t necessarily known for funneling students to the ivies certainly worked to my detriment, but a surefire way to combat that – as the story of my friend illustrates – is test scores. If there’s a way to make a last-minute push and bolster your application, it’s test scores. You should consider, though, whether the best course of action is to improve your SAT I (or ACT) and SAT II’s instead of simply taking more SAT II exams.</p>
<p>Adcoms won’t look at the course list and get stuck on the total number of APs offered. They will understand the actual opps and limits in your hs- either by knowing your hs directly or by reading the “school profile” the GC will send. Some GC’s will mention the limits on a student’s ability to pound APs into the schedule.</p>
<p>The Ivies review holistically. They’re going to try to glean what sort of kid you are, how you operate, etc, how you’ll fit, including outside class- from the whole app. (That’s why it’s important to check the common app and supps now. This also allows you to fine tune your activities or accomplishments over the next 5 months.)</p>
<p>More SAT2’s? Okay, why not two more. You could use Addl Info to briefly state that, in the absence of addl AP scores, you wanted to test your achievement- or some comfortable wording.</p>
<p>If you can’t compete on number of APs, make the very most of what you do have. Make 'em like you. Tip: if you have to answer the “Why Us?” question, have a solid answer. If you have to explain your interest in your major, make it valid. Your determination is clear. Do what you can but don’t forget to breathe.</p>
<p>ConnorR15, I am not anywhere close to being #1 (or #3) in my class because my school is so competitive, but my ACT and SAT scores are quite good (34 and 2230 - and I’m retaking the latter). Do you think it’s worth it to try to get them to a 36 and a 2400? At this point, I’m focusing much more on my SAT IIs than on either of them, since SAT IIs are actually required while SAT/ACT retakes are not (and, in my case, a retake of the latter may not even be necessary).</p>
<p>lookingforward, some of the reasons I haven’t taken certain APs are subtle and my GC might not think of them. This might seem like a cop-out, but, for example, AP Music Theory, which is technically available to sophomores, pretty much requires that you already be in the music program in order to get the connections for admission; AP Computer Science (or, God forbid, AP Calculus), which is also technically available to sophomores and, in rare cases, even freshmen, pretty much requires you to have been designated as an extremely intelligent student AND one with a passion for such a subject more than a year in advance; APUSH pretty much requires you to have been designated as an outstanding (or at least very good) history student early on, and history has never been one of my strengths; AP Spanish, which is available for all four grades, requires, for obvious reasons, Spanish throughout middle school, but I took French in middle school and Japanese in high school, so no AP language test before senior year for me. I mean, I technically could’ve continued to take French in high school for the sake of taking the French AP before senior year, but you see what I’m getting at? I think it’s unrealistic to expect students everywhere to have the same attitude of cramming in as many APs as possible even when they don’t make sense or, more importantly, when they aren’t REALLY possible to get into, but how would I communicate this? Or do I just not seem like a very good student for even asking?</p>
<p>I disagree with Connor that this is a matter of improving scores- especially at 34/2230. Believe me, the holistic angle is where to focus. </p>
<p>The GC has to mark whether your course load has been most rigorous, rigorous, etc. Make nice with the GC. Have those important conversations, nicely. </p>
<p>The more you describe this hs, the more seriously competitive it sounds. Do you want to mention where the school is or pm me? I don’t think I know what your major is. And, are your ECs what an Ivy will like?</p>
<p>I agree with lookingforward. Retaking a 34/2230 is pretty trivial at this point. Have you been talking to your guidance counselor throughout high school? If you have, you “might” be able to sort of tweak what they put on their recommendation by being in their favor.</p>
<p>I would agree with lookingforward and CantConcentrate that my previous point about improving your SAT I and ACT is moot, especially given where you sit with them and if you haven’t taken any SAT II’s yet. </p>
<p>There’s no need to bother trying to better your SAT I or ACT if you don’t have perfect SAT II’s in your pocket, because your SAT I and ACT are nearly perfect themselves. I had a 33 ACT but a much weaker (I took it once and swore it off forever, hoping my ACT would trump) SAT at 2020. Also, I feel that perhaps my case should be seen as an exception to the rule; you’ll certainly get the benefit of the doubt having come from a school with a reputation for being very competitive – something that my school lacked.</p>
<p>In short, ignore my previous post about improving those scores. Now is the time for you to focus on turning in stellar SAT II exams. Besides Math II what exams were you considering?</p>
<p>I’m planning to take Physics and Japanese, and I’m considering taking either Literature or one of the sciences (I still have my notes from Bio and Chem and an old review book for the latter). From what I’ve gathered, Literature is very similar to the Reading section of the ACT (32 both times) and the CR section of the SAT (740). This may be ignorant or an oversimplification, but bear with me. It’s both a pro and a con: since I’ve done well on such material in the past, the test will likely be easy for me, but since it’s so similar, it might not be looked upon as favorably as a different test.</p>
<p>I’m nervous about Japanese because, as it’s only hosted in November, I only have one shot, but the silver lining of this is that it’ll force me to spread my SAT IIs out a little more, since retaking the SAT I is starting to seem unnecessary.</p>