<p>Our EFC is around $11,000. The rest would have come from need-based aid; we are hoping to avoid any student loans. Therefore, we can not pay full price for any of the colleges.
Also, pl. remember that my S is only 16 1/2 years of age; although he likes biological sciences, shows an interest in volunteering at a hospital & shadowing physicians, and wants to help the needy, it would be presumptuous if he were to be sure of his future career in medicine at this age. Who knows, he may change his mind, should something else catch his fancy. Just planning for any changes along the way.
WUSTL along with univ. such as Vanderbilt are great places; just not sure if they will tip the scales against Michigan (Cost / Benefit), knowing that Michigan sends a large number of students to Med schools.</p>
<p>Considering your EFC I would recommend taking a good look at schools which meet 100% of need without loans or with loan caps.</p>
<p>GO BLUE! With those stats you will have your pick of the litter!! Are you in state Michigan? What about Stanford or Cornell??</p>
<ol>
<li>Thanks. My S is currently exploring the following majors for his UG (not in any order of preference)</li>
<li>Bio Chemistry / Molecular biology 2. Chemical & Bio Molecular Engineering 3. Bio medical engineering. 4. Optometry (maybe?)</li>
</ol>
<p>There are many colleges that provide need based aid without incurring loans (<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/878096-colleges-meet-full-need-check-out-us-news-chart-3.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/878096-colleges-meet-full-need-check-out-us-news-chart-3.html</a>), P. 3. </p>
<p>Among the ones above, only UPenn, Columbia and Yale offer UG majors in 1-3. These are, in my opinion, very high reach schools for my S. Some folks have alerted (thanks) that these schools do not provide any merit aid. </p>
<ol>
<li>Neither Univ. of Michigan nor Vanderbilt office of Financial Aid can provide any estimate of expected scholarships / grants given an EFC of $11,000. Other schools respond in a similar fashion, stating that the financial aid will become clear after submitting the admission application & FAFSA / CSS profile. </li>
</ol>
<p>Side note: Apart from the statistics, my S is very collaborative & quite modest; he may not fit in with hyper competitive student body.</p>
<ol>
<li>Yes, we are residents of Michigan.</li>
</ol>
<p>Regarding the discussion of majors, I will use Williams as an example as it is the school with which I am most familiar as my daughter is a student there. At Williams, there is a biochemistry program within the biology major. Same for genetics and some other specific areas. The degree would be a BA in Biology but any grad program or professional school would see the course work in biochemistry. You are correct in that there is no engineering major (Swarthmore has one) but the undergrad courses are there to set up a very strong foundation for a post-undergrad engineering program. You said earlier that he might not want to be an engineer or a doctor anyway. There’s no down side to considering some of the very generous LACs in his mix of schools. (Well, not Amherst as their science facilities are said to be lacking) These schools could be the right fit for a more collaborative, less hyper-competitive type kid.</p>
<p>“1. Bio Chemistry / Molecular biology 2. Chemical & Bio Molecular Engineering 3. Bio medical engineering”
Stanford offers all of those majors AND is very flexible with students who want to combine related science areas into new majors. Stanford is determined to become a Boi-tech powerhouse and wants students whose interests are in this area. Stanford ALSO offers very generous FA packages for middle class families, which do NOT include loans. With your S/s ACT score, and his interests, he would be making a mistake NOT applying to Stanford, especially if he is thinking about applying to Yale as well. You may want to PM DAD II , whose D goes to Stanford and who was very afraid of how little FA Stanford would offer, being in the upper-middle class bracket, until he actually saw her FA package .A GENEROUS no loan FA package is as good as merit $$.</p>
<p>Thank you Menloparkmom & Electronblue for your input.</p>
<p>Based on UG admission results for the past 2 years, Stanford admissions has deferred valedictorians with high standardized test scores, great ECs & leadership. My S, though may have great score, is not a valedictorian, and his ECs are deep but few and leadership is limited to 2. IMHO, Stanford may be a far stretch, perhaps no more than Yale. </p>
<p>Since my S is still going through an exploration phase regarding the majors, I am leaning more towards guiding him to apply to Universities (as opposed to pure LACs), so he has the option of experimenting with a plethora of majors (including Chem E, Bio Med E / Optometry, …), thus avoiding to transfer (to another institution) for lack of pursuit of his interests.</p>
<p>Hopefully, the total # of universities under consideration (including many for BS/MD) for application can be reduced to a manageable set.</p>
<p>I am leaning more towards guiding him to apply to Universities (as opposed to pure LACs)</p>
<p>This was my son’s trajectory as well 4 years ago. When he started to make a list of colleges- it was only LAC’s that were preferably thousands of miles from home. And where did he end up? At the biggest in state U he applied to! The reason he decided on USC apart from the merit scholarship was it had many more classes in the scientific major he was interested in than any LAC, a nationally recognized research center specializing in the same field, and a terrific school of music where he would have the chance to take lessons, make friends with other talented musicians and practice all he wanted on any of the dozens of concert grands in the practice rooms.</p>
<p>He ended up applying to 15 colleges,[ accepted at 13] We were [correctly] advised to “cast a wide net” because we were looking for top colleges, FA, merit aid, and the most options that any of the above would allow. So don’t be too quick to reduce the number of colleges he applies to.</p>
<p>Applications to Vanderbilt and Wash U St. Louis are directed to a particular college. In other words, your son will need to decide ahead of time whether he would rather major in the sciences/econ or an engineering field such as biomedical engineering. Both schools allow double majors across colleges once one is admitted, however. A fair number of the biomedical engineering majors at Vanderbilt are pre-med; I do not have any information about how successful they are at med. school admissions compared to non-engineering science majors. I believe BME is the largest single major in VUSE.</p>
<p>I don’t know the current AP policy at Wash U. At Vanderbilt, the engineering school (VUSE) is far more liberal than Arts and Science in awarding advanced standing and credit. Engineering students with exceptional AP records find double majors quite doable. In addition, if an engineering student is not inclined towards humanities, good scores can be used to bypass some of the liberal arts requirements.</p>
<p>The named merit scholarships at Vanderbilt are awarded by the individual colleges. Students who are stronger in math and engineering-type courses and activities probably stand a considerably better chance at getting a merit award through VUSE than A and S, but it is highly competitive in both cases. A separate application is required.</p>
<p>Most people think Vanderbilt’s financial aid is very good. They are ‘loan free’ for students, i.e., loans have been replaced by grants. Work study is part of the mix, however.</p>
<p>The diversity question: the percentage of students at Vanderbilt who self-identify as Asian/Asian American is lower than that at many peer institutions, but that is changing quite rapidly. The campus as a whole is much more diversified, racially/culturally/geographically, than it was a decade ago.</p>
<p>Trinity,
It seems that you can be reasonably assured that your son will be offered enough need-based aid to allow him to attend a private school. I wouldn’t cross any schools off his list because of finance just yet, but I would develop a financial safety list as well as an admissions safety list, just to be safe.</p>
<p>Engineering and 6 year medical programs require highly focused commitments. It is very, very normal for smart multifaceted 16 year olds not to know what career path they will eventually choose. I would encourage your son to keep his options open. To me a general liberal arts degree – BA or BS depending on the school and major – should be one choice for him right now. Just to be clear, science and math are included in the liberal arts, not just humanities.</p>
<p>Definitely plan to apply early to UMich under their rolling admissions arrangement. This could then be his safety.</p>
<p>I would suggest that your son try to leverage his South Indian heritage. Many of the most prestigious universities – especially those in urban areas – are flooded with Asian and South Asian applicants. However, many of the small liberal arts colleges – especially those in more remote locations – actually recruit Asian and South Asian students. </p>
<p>I’d start with Williams, Carleton and Grinnell in this category, but there are others as well. All have excellent academics and excellent graduate and professional school admissions records. Small liberal arts colleges are not to everyone’s liking but don’t be mislead by the “liberal arts” nomenclature. These schools can be excellent for science, math and econonmics, especially for a “laidback” student who would benefit from a wide range of academic disciplines before making a final career decision.</p>
<p>Definitely look at Case Western. He would easily get accepted, probably with excellent scholarships. If you apply EA (Early Action), you will be able to have that offer early. Keep watch of the college mail next fall - he may get a postcard for free application.</p>
<p>Your son sounds like a cool guy. I liked that you described him as laid back and collaborative. </p>
<p>I got my engineering degree from Case Western. They had a very good biomedical engineering department at one time. He would be exposed to premeds, which would give him a sense about whether he could stand to deal with them regularly. A million years ago Case had a fabulous MD/Phd program. </p>
<p>I think its interesting that his career path is kind of either engineering or medical. They are very different sorts. </p>
<p>I dont really know much about schools these days, but I will say this here because Ive been thinking it for years. I love the engineering kids that come out of Virginia Tech.</p>
<p>Trinity7,
My D. is in bs/md at state school. Case is famous for Merit $$. She got substantial Merit $$ there (we would be paying only $5000/year in tuition if she ended up going there) but did not get into PPSP. Strongly recommend Case and overall bs/md choice. It gives them peace of mind.</p>
<p>Thanks for excellent feedback.</p>
<p>I have tried to present probability of admission, Cost of Attendance etc. to help myself with quantitative feel for various colleges. The first 3 sets of numbers (Admissions Chance , # Students data, Prediction accuracy (admissions) came from a web site that predicts HS student’s chances for admission to college; the Admissions Chance is specific to each student; in this case the admissions chance is applicable to my S. </p>
<p>The last 4 data sets (except “Avg. need based shortfall ($)”) came mainly from US News (premium) web edition. I apologize for the way the excel data is displayed on this page. </p>
<ol>
<li>Barring Stanford, Yale, Pennsylvania & Williams, the rest of the colleges seem like either matches or safety. I am not sure if my S would gain by applying to so many. </li>
<li>It is hard to beat State Universities, from a cost stand point of view. </li>
<li><p>The out of pocket expense / year (termed “Avg. needs based shortfall ($)”) is still high. This is calculated to be the difference between COA ($) & Avg. need-based scholarship / Grant ($). </p></li>
<li><p>For brevity, the data for BS/MD list is not included. The BS/MD list includes the following under consideration:</p></li>
<li><p>Wayne State</p></li>
<li><p>Alabama, B’ham</p></li>
<li><p>Baylor</p></li>
<li><p>St. Bonaventure / GWU</p></li>
<li><p>Kentucky UoK</p></li>
<li><p>Toledo</p></li>
<li><p>Northwestern</p></li>
<li><p>Pittsburgh</p></li>
<li><p>Ohio State</p></li>
<li><p>Case Western</p></li>
<li><p>Miami (FL)</p></li>
<li><p>Virginia Commonwealth</p></li>
<li><p>Penn State</p></li>
<li><p>Drexel</p></li>
<li><p>NEOUCOM</p></li>
</ol>
<p>It is very difficult to predict the probability of admission to the BS/MD programs, since admitted student profiles, in many cases, are not available. </p>
<p>==============================================================================================
Table</p>
<p>Univ., Admission Chance (%), # Students data, Prediction accuracy (%), COA ($), Avg. need-based scholarship / Grant ($), Avg. need based shortfall ($), % of full-time students receiving grants: </p>
<p>Michigan State 99.8%, 89, NA, $20979, $7147, $13832, 24%,</p>
<p>Michigan 98.7%, 333, 94%, $23466, $9358, $14108, 25%</p>
<p>Yale 26.5%, 449, 81%, $51270, $36668, $14602, 58%</p>
<p>Williams 43%, 86, 80%, $52437, $36375, $16062, 49%</p>
<p>Grinnell 91.5%, 36, 78%, $47712, $30751, $16961, 60%</p>
<p>Stanford 18.5%, 477, 83%, $53879, $36400, $17479, 46%</p>
<p>Columbia (Fu Eng) 98.8%, 25, 92%, $51546, $33751, $17795, 46%</p>
<p>Rice 91.1%, 158, 82%, $45078, $24104, $20974, 37%</p>
<p>Duke 65.8%, 360, 77%, $53730, $30890, $22840, 40%</p>
<p>U Penn 31.6%, 313, 75%, $53800, $30153, $23647, 40%</p>
<p>Vanderbilt 99%, 172, 87%, $54718, $30416, $24302, 37%</p>
<p>Carleton 91.1%, 43, 70%, $52360, $26391, $25969, 55%</p>
<p>Washington (Seattle) 99.7%, 133, 98%, $37120, $8722, $28398, 29%</p>
<p>Wisconsin 99.9%, 152, 93%, $34240, $4461, $29779, 23%</p>
<p>USC 97.6%, 290, 78%, $54857, $24663, $30194, 37%,</p>
<p>UIUC (Illinois) 98.7%, 196, 91%, $39840, $9490, $30350, 32%,</p>
<p>Berkeley 75.2%, 503, 76%, $49982, $12496, $37486, 46%</p>
<p>Toronto 99%, 15, 100%, $24723</p>
<p>McGill 99%, 51, 96%, $18866</p>
<p>UBC 99%, 2, 100%, 17372,</p>
<p>Whoa! I think, in fact I KNOW , those “admission chances” are way off! OOS students applying to Berkeley, even those with top stats like your S, are far less likely to be accepted than instate, and a 75% chance is nuts…And the Rice, Colum %'s chances are also way too high. My advise is to ignore those statistics, as they are more likely to set you and your S up for disappointment.</p>
<p>I agree with menloparkmom. Vanderbilt’s overall admit rate last yr. was about 19%. Even if your son applied for a binding ED, which has a much higher admit rate, I wouldn’t say he–or anyone else–had a 99% chance of admission. I think his chances are very good, but 99% implies that selection is entirely on the basis of objective factors, and that is not true.</p>
<p>I am using the probability of admission only for comparing each college versus others. From a directional stand point of view, the results seem logical; i.e Admission to Stanford is way more difficult than Michigan State. However, from an absolute value, I agree the results are over optimistic. </p>
<p>Since the admissions outcome for the BS/MD list is expected to be abysmally low, many colleges which may turn down my S for early admission to MD, may offer admission to the UG. Case in point: MiamiDap’s D who didn’t get into Case Western PPSP (BS/MD) program, but was admitted into regular UG. Rejections is part of the process, however much my S may not like it; hopefully, this approach will lead us to the “right” college at an affordable price. In other words: What are the optimal (not necessarily the best) colleges that will come close to our EFC?</p>
<p>Go Blue! He sounds perfect for Michigan honors.</p>
<p>"What are the optimal (not necessarily the best) colleges that will come close to our EFC? "</p>
<p>There is no way of knowing without further research, but this website can give you an idea of which colleges have deep enough pockets to be able to eliminate loans entirely from their FA packages. Its a start…</p>
<p>here you go:
[FinAid</a> | Answering Your Questions | No Loans for Low Income Students](<a href=“http://www.finaid.org/questions/noloansforlowincome.phtml]FinAid”>http://www.finaid.org/questions/noloansforlowincome.phtml)</p>
<p>"Colleges Eliminating Loans from Financial Aid</p>
<p>Colleges that have eliminated loans from the financial aid packages of all undergraduate students include Princeton University, Davidson College, Amherst College, Harvard University, Pomona College, Swarthmore College, Haverford College, University of Pennsylvania, Yale University, Bowdoin College, Stanford University, Wellesley College, Columbia University, Claremont McKenna College and Vanderbilt University. </p>
<p>Scroll down to the beginning of the table which lists more colleges that have eliminated loans as part of some or all FA packages.</p>
<p>Trinity, Unfortunately due to continued instability in the economy, college funding is undergoing a seismic shift which I believe will continue into the next year. Thus it’s hard to pin down likely dollar amounts and I would be wary of using 2008 figures as an indication. Need blind and no loan policies are under revision all over the country.</p>
<p>The best approach, I think, would be to use Michigan rolling admissions as your son’s safety – both in selectivity and tuition (though I’m not sure when they will give you your financial package). Then with that admission in hand he can cast as wide a net as he’s able to handle.</p>
<p>I would also apply “against the grain.” Think about which schools are going to want to encourage a high achieving South Indian in order to up their diversity figures. This is the best route to merit money.</p>