Are many middle/high school students being pushed too far ahead in math?

<p>@texaspg, I think many public schools offer Calc AB junior year.</p>

<p>hmmm, IJD, I love long summers!? I wish not to take that away. I sent my D away every summer since 5th grade and day camps before that.</p>

<p>Pushed too far, isn’t that up to an individual student? At my D’s HS, the math goes up to multi-variables. Some kids are done with it in sophomore and go to a local college to advance further. Some kids on the other hand struggle so much in the advanced track that their parents hire a private tutor. The school has 7 levels of math to choose from but some parents refuse to sign their kids up for anything other than the advanced. Should they get rid of all the adv level to calm down some parents?</p>

<p>IMO, the biggest problem with school math classes are school math teachers. Most just don’t know how to teach anything beyond working through the problems in the book. The essence of math is proof, which does require mathematical maturity. Most high school math teachers can’t prove their way out of a brown paper bag and those who can are told not to. The tragedy is that kids are told that memorizing formulas is learning math.</p>

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<p>I think it’s great to have a lot of levels of math because everyone learns at a different pace. I think the breakdown occurs when ‘parents refuse to sign their kids up for anything other than advanced’. That should not be allowed unless the parents have concrete proof that their kid deserves to be in advanced math, and ‘my kid is bored’ is not evidence enough. Concrete proof should be in the form of an ‘entrance exam’ into the class (son’s school administrated one for many AP courses), an A in the previous level and a teacher’s recommendation. Standardized testing should probably not be the only criteria. My son has scored in the 95-99th percentile in every part of every standardized test he’s ever taken (including the ACT). He’s brilliant but he wasn’t ready to be on the super-duper math track in high school. Achieving at that level requires a combination of different qualities including maturity, discipline and focus.</p>

<p>Kids in our high school avoid Calc BC because the only person who teaches it is way over his head when it come to math at that level. He doesn’t understand it himself and cannot answer students’ questions. He can only write on the board sample problems he, or someone else perhaps, solved years ago but he no longer understands how to do them. Some kids were getting help from the AP Physics teacher, and others had private tutors. D didn’t walk that road because I can’t help her and Calc BC tutors are among the most expensive (over $100 an hour when I checked several years ago.)</p>

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The “normal” track I listed is actually not “standard.” It’s the route a lot of the students take because I happen to go to a competitive high school with extremely well-performing students (to the point where a teacher from another HS in the county can’t believe how different the kids at my school are, but that’s neither here nor there). I think the “normal” track includes trig after algebra 2 and before pre-calculus. But most skip trig, take precalc and then AP Calc (or AP Statistics).</p>

<p>“College algebra” is the name of a course that is offered at the local community college. Based on what I’ve seen from helping one of my friends with some of his assignments, it seems to be nothing more than algebra 2 and precalculus topics. Just in college and for college credit.</p>

<p>Ohiomom - Not in Texas. For someone to do Calculus AB, they need 4 years of Math (Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, Precalculus). However, regular public middle schools are not structured to offer anything more than Algebra I, and that too to only advanced students in middle school. So when one gets to high school, they still need 3 years of math to get to Calculus. There are very few school districts in the entire state where Geometry is covered in middle school or they allow their kids to go attend a high school geometry class in the first period.</p>

<p>So for an auto admit state college to make Calculus completion a requirement when the kids apply early in 12th makes it out of step.</p>

<p>I have kid in middle school and the only choice I seem to have is to send the kid to summer school for Geometry in order to get to Algebra II in 9th.</p>

<p>Eh,
I took calc 3 and linear algebra in 10th grade and kind of burnt out after that.
At the time, it seemed like I was being pushed too far too fast.</p>

<p>Later on, I realized that I could handle the material just fine, the issue was the quality of the teachers. </p>

<p>If you’re interested in the material/enjoy math or related fields, there is no reason why you shouldn’t challenge yourself.
Also, especially if you’re taking it at the high school level, calc bc is watered down to the point of ridiculousness.
Had friends in school who got 5s on the calc bc exam who struggled immensely with calc 2 in college.</p>

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I disagree. D has survived 2 years in the Honors sections, and is now in Honors Precalc. Her teacher from last year recommended she be kicked down, and her math grades aren’t great, but she is capable of doing the work and we refuse to just let her take the easy way out. She has to at least make an effort to survive another year of advanced track math.</p>

<p>I kept my daughter in just the right track that she feels confident in her math ability, ie not getting bored, but not too advanced that she would feel overwhelmed. Somehow she still ends up with BC calculus in her senior year. She enjoys math and all math related activities.</p>

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That’s very HS dependent - sounds like bad luck in your case. Some schools teach Calc BC with a rigor that matches a strong university level.</p>

<p>Also, I don’t understand this idea of taking Calc AB, with the intention of taking Calc BC in the next year; that sounds kind of crazy. If the student has a solid precalc foundation, then he’s ready for Calc - so just take it. If the student isn’t ready, he should really spend the year acquiring that foundation; the watered down Calc isn’t going to fill in the knowledge gap.</p>

<p>In my experience, the sequence for strong students is: algebra (8th grade), geometry, algebra II, precalc, calc (either AB or BC).</p>

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<p>This seems odd. A sample program for ECE at Texas lists M408C as the starting math course for entering freshmen:</p>

<p>[UT</a> ECE | Undergraduate: 2010-2012 Catalog 4-Year Plan](<a href=“http://www.ece.utexas.edu/undergraduate/2010_catalog.cfm]UT”>http://www.ece.utexas.edu/undergraduate/2010_catalog.cfm)</p>

<p>M408C is listed as “Calculus I” here:</p>

<p>[Course</a> Descriptions](<a href=“http://www.ma.utexas.edu/academics/courses/descriptions/]Course”>http://www.ma.utexas.edu/academics/courses/descriptions/)</p>

<p>Note that students with AP Calculus AB credit are recommended to take M408D-AP instead (M408D is “Calculus II” and M408D-AP is “AP Honors Calculus II”). There are other courses like M408K and M408L with more theory.</p>

<p>So it seems odd to require AP Calculus credit for admission to Texas engineering when the suggested course selection for entering freshmen does not require AP Calculus credit.</p>

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<p>What is labeled as AP Statistics is probably a reasonable high school level statistics course that would be useful for those who do not expect to take a college level statistics course. But it seems that high schools needed the incentive of an “AP” label to offer the course, even though many colleges do not accept it as a true “college level” statistics course.</p>

<p>I am a year behind because I took Pre algebra and algebra twice in middle school. I am technically still a year “ahead” though. I have been begging my counselor to allow me to take BC my senior year, but she would not allow me since the prerequisite is AB. So I ended up being stuck in AB this year. The issue is that I already know all this. However, I had the most trouble in algebra. The issue was I did not put on my big boy pants and just get down to work. Now I suffer in calculus (I got a C in the review test since I forgot the trig identities…) Derivatives, integrals, and their applications come easy for me. It is mostly due to the fact that I am taking Physics C. The biggest issue I have with the way calculus is being taught is the fact that most teachers never used it outside the classroom before. They simply have no examples for legit real world applications. Then my Computer Science teacher comes around (PhD in EE with 2 decades of research/NASA experience) and showed me that calculus is used in control systems.</p>

<p>Reason for retaking the classes twice: I got a C in prealgebra in the accelerated summer school class because I never did my homework (literally, never.) So the teacher did not let me go on to algebra. That triggered my bad boy rebel attitude and got D’s in prealgebra the second time. Of course, that attitude carried onto my freshman year.</p>

<p>Quantmech: I was not asleep, just away from home and don’t yet have any kind of device that allows me to carry the internet with me.</p>

<p>Thank you for taking the time to write those posts and give us all that information. It seems to me extremely helpful and I’m going to copy it for some relatives.</p>

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<p>If only you had time to design such a course! I don’t know how we fix public schools, but it seems to me many (most?) students can teach themselves if they just have the right materials available. If they could teach themselves math at home, going at their own speed and without having to worry about grades, it would also seem desirable to me. How can we do that? Is this a possibility? This seemed timely :(:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/technology/a-classroom-software-boom-but-mixed-results-despite-the-hype.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/technology/a-classroom-software-boom-but-mixed-results-despite-the-hype.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>^^This is what I see and worry about. Some students are disadvantaged by not having enough math in HS. This is usually a huge surprise to them and their parents because these students have been seen as unusually advanced within their community.</p>

<h1>153 davidthefat: would you have self-studied math if an on-line course was easily available to you?</h1>

<p>Someone posted about using the summer for more school work because students aren’t getting enough instruction. In my opinion the problem really is not that students aren’t working hard enough or enough hours but that they aren’t working very efficiently. They don’t have the right materials to make the best use of their time. There is too much busywork that isn’t really adding to their education.</p>

<p>MisterK – the highest level of math offered at our school is typically AB. Once in a blue moon, BC is available to seniors, of whom only a few are qualified and/or interested. When it is not offered, those students interested in math pursue dual enrollment if their schedules permit. I did not know until reading this thread that many (most?) high schools offer either AB or BC.</p>

<p>UCB - here are the UT guidelines.</p>

<p>[Cockrell</a> School of Engineering | Be a Longhorn](<a href=“http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/freshmen/admission/majors/engineering]Cockrell”>http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/freshmen/admission/majors/engineering)</p>

<p>Do you know what one needs to know to score an 80 on ALEKS test?</p>

<p>There are significant differences in the math curriculum of the public schools. Some schools (in Texas) don’t offer Geometry in Middle School. Post #147.</p>

<p>Our District does, but does not have a “pre-calculus” class. We also do not have a multivariable calculus class.</p>

<p>This is the accelerted track in our District:
7th: Algebra I
8th: Geometry
9th: Honors Algebra II
10th: Honors Trigonometry/Honors Analytic Geometry
11th; AP Calc AB
12th: AP Calc BC (no option to take BC before AB)</p>

<p>Do any public schools offer multivariable calculus or is this a class only offered in private schools?</p>

<p>Re “holding classes”–our hs offers a course called Discrete Mathematics for students who complete Algebra II but don’t want to take precalc. My D struggled mightily in Algebra II as a junior and I did not want her taking precalc as a senior. I discussed with her GC her taking discrete math instead of precalc but GC discouraged it because for the caliber of schools she was applying to it would look bad. (She was on honors/AP track in English, history, psychology, Spanish.) She struggled mightily in precalc as well and passed only because she had a sympathetic math teacher who saw how much she struggled in spite of doing her hw, getting private tutoring, etc. She will never again take a math class, as she can fulfill her gen ed requirement at college through logic, philosophy, comp sci, or a non-calc-based math class. </p>

<p>Years ago, I was tracked in a high level, experimental math program called SSMCIS (anyone ever heard of this?). It began in 7th grade. I struggled in it and dropped down to Algebra I in 8th grade. Breezed through algebra I and geometry, then was tracked to Intermediate algebra and trig (I’m guessing, the equivalent of Algebra II today) honors as a soph. Had a miserable teacher, hated it, and dropped down to what was then called “Advanced Algebra and Trig” CP, not honors, as a junior (guessing this is now precalc). Breezed through that, and I did not take Calc my senior year as I was incredibly turned off by math at that point. I took precalc to fulfill my college gen ed requirement; no one checked to see if I had taken it already. Fast forward 8 years–I got into B-school and had to take a math placement test in calc. I never took a calc course so I took advantage of a “review” program the school offered where you could borrow videotapes of a professor teaching the full calc course that you would need to take if you failed the test. I got the book, watched the tapes, did the hw, and passed the test with little problem. I suddenly realized, wow, I CAN do math. In retrospect, I think it was the early pressure of the highly accelerated placement, a bad teacher or two, and I was totally turned off to math and did not recognize that I COULD do it. I wonder how things could have been different with different teachers and curriculum.</p>

<p>OhioMom, our public HS offers multivariate calculus for kids who start with prealgebra in 6th grade. The progression is: prealgebra–algebra I–algebra II–geometry honors–precalc honors–AP Calc BC–multivariate calculus. Maybe 30 kids/year, in a typical grade of 385-400 kids–start on this track. I don’t know how many are there at the end; I’m guessing maybe half that.</p>

<p>^ Thanks. I guess we are a bit behind in that respect.</p>

<p>I also wondered why Geometry in our dirstict is taught after Algebra I, instead of after Alegbra II, the way it was in my day. Do not know why they teach Alg I, Geometry then Alg II. Possibly for Science classes.</p>