<p>Both are fairly synonymous terms, that you apparently fixed your own specific definitions to. Fewer competition makes for a less challenging environment. Either way, we agree, we’re just using different words to convey the same thing. So what schools did he turn down? Any regrets? He got into his first choice medical school?</p>
<p>jc40,
I am happy for your D. My kid went to the best (and the most expansive) private HS in our area (included kids driving whole hour one way every day), where she was on a Merit award and graduated #1 (no other kid had 4.0 uw). This HS did not even believe in AP, their vision was to teach at the higher level than AP (which they did as D. ended up being an SI in college for Gen. Chem. prof and has tutored many who had AP Chem, while she did not). According to her, there was a huge gap between HS level and college level with one exception in her case - Gen. Chem., where she never had any collger grade below 100+ % (with extra credit). She felt that she was pushed very hard in some classes, notebly ALL Bio, starting with the first one that she thankfully did not skip despite of having 5 on AP Bio (one of the very few AP classes that she had in her HS). After saying that, I have to admit that D. had always strived for A and so far did not have a single B in her academic career (not done yet, still have to see about her Med. School 3rd year grades as all 1/2 years were p/f, and she passed all of them). D. went to non-flagship state public college where she also graduated as a top pre-med in her class (received award, otherwise we would never knew).
You can consider your D. exceptionally lucky with her college prep.</p>
<p>The words “less challenging” alone conjures up the idea of an easier curriculum. “Less challenging environment” can be different. The title of the thread questions whether the programs are harder at elites, which suggests a more difficult curriculum. The words may seem fairly synonymous but the differences are significant. </p>
<p>A person might wrongly think that a less-elite school won’t teach him the needed info for the MCAT or provide the foundation for med school.</p>
<p>S2 only applied to schools in the SE area and Calif because he doesn’t like cold weather…he turned down UCLA, Emory, Tulane, and Duke. He also turned down Santa Clara…forgot about that one. (We’re native Californians, who now live in the SE.) He didn’t apply to a whole bunch of schools because he really loves Bama. We made him apply to more schools…lol.</p>
<p>He got into his top choice med school, which is where he’s matriculating. </p>
<p>lol…why would he have any regrets? He adored Bama, had the time of his life watching his school win 3 BCS championships (he loves sports), and will be attending his top choice SOM. What’s to regret? </p>
<p>(BTW…S1 got accepted to every PhD program that he applied to. He was also a Bama grad)</p>
<p>From D’s comments, the MCAT score depends on how hard you work on preparing for the MCAT. In regard to academic prep. for Med. School, forget this one. The academics at SOM are soooooo much harder and the clinical experineces are sooooo challenging that NO college will prepare you for that. D. commented that the challenges in UG and SOM exists in different universe, they do not connect in any level. Actually, it is a good idea to load yourself with everything to the point that you feel that you have no time whatsoever. This will teach you to manage time and this skill is absolutely invaluable at Med. School. This is one way to prepare, even though, no matter how much you load upon yourself at UG, you will never come close to the time demands at SOM.</p>
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<p>Read my post #3 in this thread, then start your own comparison using real tests and real students from these schools. At least for Bio, Chem, and Calc, (all pre-req classes) there IS often a difference based upon the selectivity of the school. Many schools go into higher levels of difficulty in higher level classes that mainly majors take. Others start the in depth early since the majority of students coming in are ready for it. Bio 101 is NOT the same class no matter where you take it.</p>
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<p>This is true because the more in-depth subject matter in the deeper classes is not needed for med school. Find a school (and academic level) that fits the student. Either type can work. Sit in on classes and talk with current students - see if they’ll show you notes - to get a feel for the level of academics.</p>
<p>I’ll also freely disagree that no high school prepares students well for college… Some students end up feeling their first semester of high school is a repetition of high school - or even easier. Others struggle. It all depends upon the quality of the high school and the level of academics at the college (as well as individual teachers/profs).</p>
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<p>Is there a list of where the 95 percentile MCAT scores attended UG or is this a vaulted secret that colleges wouldn’t want discovered? If those statistics existed, that would diminish some of the uncertainty of the conversation in this thread.</p>
<p>“Some students end up feeling their first semester of high school is a repetition of high school - or even easier.”
-Incorrect schedule for the first semester.</p>
<p>“Is there a list of where the 95 percentile MCAT scores went to UG?”
-Irrelevant, incorrect way of choosing your UG, why to waste any time on this at all? The list will reflect the type of kids going to UG, not the UG. If Ivys accept much more valedictorians than other UG (just a guess, no research), don’t you think that Ivys would have the highest percentage (which prooves that if a hard working High Schooler will continue working hard in UG, including prep. for MCAT, then she/he will again end up on top).</p>
<p>Differences exist between professors at the same school teaching the same class. Therefore, it is definitely expected that elite schools will teach these courses differently. I would probably phrase the question as, do research institutions teach their pre-med courses differently than non research institutions? Lastly, no matter what you do in UG, you will never be prepared for the rigor medical school.</p>
<p>I have seen 2 types of students who were over-prepared for medical schools and aced everything. Former veterinarians during the first 2 years of MS and midlevels (NP, RN, PA, AA) during the last 2 years.</p>
<p>“Lastly, no matter what you do in UG, you will never be prepared for the rigor medical school.”
-This is exactly what my D. said, she is not an MD, she is just an MS3, her pre-clinical (lecture based) experience is very fresh, just started her clinicals and she is completely overhelmed. We do not even discuss what she is doing, we are trying to figure out shoes that would enable her to be on her feet for 12+ hours, I really wish her best on her clinical exams, but I am not even thinking about her doing well, I am just concerned with her physical survival, not getting sick, just finish the current rotation and I started feeling like falling apart myself thinking about her constantly.
Do not connect the UG challenges to Med. School challenges, there is no connection at all, not comparable…despite the fact that D. has always felt plenty challenged at her UG…</p>
<p>MiamiDAP, tell your daughter to invest in some really good review books. During my rotations I used the Blueprint and Secrets series for each. That was ages ago, I bet there are probably newer and better series. She can do exceptionally well using review books but she had to use them as often as possible.</p>
<p>She needs some really good insoles and a very good workout plan (yoga or aerobics) on the physical side. It doesn’t get easier in private practice.</p>
<p>lakeforest: I can tell you where one 99% MCAT scorer went to UG. Hint: Not an Ivy but a top 20 university.</p>
<p>lakeforest: I can also tell you where a MCAT 98%ile scorer went to undergrad. Hint: not an Ivy or a Top 20 university. (University ranked between #150-200 by USNWR)</p>
<p>That is great, but without the data, it’s possible your kids are simply outliers at their institutions. Further, there is an opportunity cost in attending a less prestigious UG. The student at a Top 10 UG is going to a more successful and far reaching alum base, have more opportunities and be around a more concentrated group of overachievers, that are more likely to go onto to do more interesting things, etc.</p>
<p>Brown prepared me very well for the rigors of med school. Sure, I have to spend many more hours doing work and reviewing than I did in UG, but the questions on the exams in my bio classes in college were generally more difficult than the questions in med school. My friends who were ahead of me (and who all went to different med schools) just told me that you have to stay on top of the workload and that is pretty much all the advice you need.</p>
<p>There was a thread on CC recently about Harvard not having classes that meet MCAT requirements, thus needing students to take external coaching.</p>
<p>No one teaches to MCAT. People go deeper in depth in some classes allowing some school students to perform better on their MCAT.</p>
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<p>Ok… you tell the schools that their required courses shouldn’t be. 
Generally, those who feel college is easier are those who pick up things quickly, then choose a college below their academic level, BUT there are exceptions. Some kids are just bright and some teachers are just really good at prepping their students. ps I never said none of the material was “new,” only that the expectations for grades can be easier - pending college and level of student one is with + prep going in. It can be new material and still be an easier class.</p>
<p>Lakeforest - I forgot to respond to your “negative vibe” question. That’s just a local thing. Where we live (rural) there are some colleges people wouldn’t be impressed with if a student went there or graduated from there. Negative vibes probably exist to some extent everywhere (though the names and attributes change pending location). I see no need to stir up a hornet’s nest by naming names. I’m a believer that all schools are good for the correct student and any school can be bad for someone who doesn’t fit. If one is planning on living locally AND cares, then they should ask around locally - to the man on the street so to speak. In medium/large cities it really won’t matter a hoot as one often doesn’t even know their neighbor all that well. In small towns and rural - well - gossip can spread.</p>
<p>lakeforest: By definition anyone in the top 1 or 2% of the MCAT is an outlier. Of the roughly 45,000 people who apply to medical school every year, that’s only 450 in the top 1%. Even if all of them went to the top 20 schools, which we know isn’t true, that’s only roughly 20 per school. Any statistic with such small numbers is almost meaningless.</p>
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Yeah! You tell 'em mom2ck. You made my day! Congratulations to your son and Roll Tide! Tell your son (he probably knows already), that the 4th BCS title is on its way. Now, if only I could convince my second kid (didn’t work with my first one, who was actually born in Alabama :() to go to my alma matter … Actually, if I could convince his mom … :D</p>
<p>“The student at a Top 10 UG is going to a more successful and far reaching alum base, have more opportunities and be around a more concentrated group of overachievers, that are more likely to go onto to do more interesting things, etc.”
-Yes, very true experience that my D. had at her state public, not any close to top 10. She did not even expect to have half of what she had. She still praise her UG and pat herself on a back for a great decision (also tuition free because of Merit awards). Now that she is closely familiar with other schools and the graduates from the very top colleges in the country (plenty in her Med. School class), she believes that she has chosen absolutely the best UG for herself. There is no academic inferiority, while she feels that her personal growth in these most important years has surpassed many others. And why? The only answer is various and very wide experiences outside of academics, the opportunities that were not missed, while other just walked by.<br>
It is up to a student, not the place. Ivy will fit some, state public will fit the others, but what they do there is the only thing that will make the difference in there future.</p>
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<p>And everything in between. The vast majority of students (I see) who head off to college end up loving where they go - even when it wasn’t their #1 choice. The exceptions are those who over or under match themselves academically or don’t consider other “fit” aspects (urban, rural, etc) and those with huge debt loads. The latter may still love their school, but wonder if it was worth it.</p>
<p>Since one can get to med school from oodles of undergrad options, 'tis best to look for a good (for the student), affordable fit.</p>
<p>The sports lover, deep academic lover, Greek lover, urban lover, small class lover, research lover, rural lover, far from home lover, in my town lover, (etc - and some of these overlap, of course) can all find great fits - AND get to med school if they put forth the effort.</p>