<p>^You expressed it absoutely right, I agree 100%. D. did not question at all her chances at Med. School (never mentioned Med. School) when choosing her UG. She knew exactly what she wanted and happened to choose her original #2 (confirmed many times over after several years, that #2 happened to fit her much better than her original #1). Yes, think how you personally will feel at the place. Then make decision, try your best and never look back. It will work, happiness will produce results, misery never does.</p>
<p>Is there a list of where the 95 percentile MCAT scores attended UG or is this a vaulted secret that colleges wouldn’t want discovered? If those statistics existed, that would diminish some of the uncertainty of the conversation in this thread.</p>
<p>No it wouldn’t. You’re wrongly assuming that those 95 percentile students performed that way BECAUSE of their elite undergrad. No. Those kids performed that way because of their natural abilities - which got them into those elite schools. If those SAME clustered kids were scattered amongst other good schools, their MCAT scores would still be very high.</p>
<p>^^Correct. While I have never seen a list of mean mcat scores by undergrad, the LSAT scores are readily available by undergrad. And what it shows, not unsurprisingly, is that HYP undergrads have the highest LSAT scores, on average. But that does not mean that such students learned the LSAT stuff while in college. All is shows is that an undergrad college that admits only high testers (SAT/ACT), will matriculate only high testers; thus, such students will test highly for grad/professional schools, just as they have tested high all of their lives.</p>
<p>But is also does not mean that some high testers don’t exist at state public flagships or directional state U’s. (There are just a lot fewer of them in total number and as a % of the class.)</p>
<p>As an example, one LS applicant this year has a 99% LSAT, and he attended a no-name, barely accredited college in a small town. He attended that college because it was local and he had a job, he could go to class PT, and had never experienced cc. :)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is certainly true in some cases, but it’s definitely not always the case.</p>
<p>I went to a really good high school with similar demographics to the one I work in now. If anything, the school I work at now has “better” demographics for success, but they’re similar. Both are public local high schools. However, the school I attended regularly sent kids to top schools nationally with top scores. Where I work it’s rare, and those who do succeed do a ton on their own to “make it happen.”</p>
<p>The difference? The school I attended noticed which students had academic aptitude and provided them with the education they needed to attain their levels. The school I work at doesn’t give much of a hoot about higher capable kids figuring “they’ll succeed no matter what” and spends its energy trying to bring up low stat kids. Those higher capable kids get really shortchanged by a “less than ideal” foundation (even in “top” classes) and do not score where they should on tests making it tough to get into higher level schools, much less, succeed when they get there. Both schools have equal caliber students along the whole bell curve.</p>
<p>It’s why I chose to homeschool my two older boys when they reached middle/high school. Both scored where they should and are doing well. Youngest insisted on returning to school for high school and we let him. His scores are right in line with the school’s top students (meaning low by cc standards or his brothers). He’s just as “smart” as my other two… but didn’t get the foundation needed to do well and isn’t motivated enough to do it on his own (typical for the age).</p>
<p>Between middle son and his equally capable peers, the difference in ACT scores are high 20s (them) to quite close to maxing it out (his).</p>
<p>The same could easily happen at the college level when students are mismatched, but again, it’s not the highest 5% score one needs to get into med school… it’s just a high score AND other attributes. Kids from our school do well in colleges when at the appropriate level and some make it into med school. Could they have done “better” along the way? Definitely yes, but our “average” school didn’t stop them from getting into an undergrad or med school if they put the work in. It may have stopped some who could have used an extra push or better foundation. I seriously doubt all of my peers would be where they are now if they’d had an education where I work (some needed the push). I doubt I would have done as well either… esp since merit aid is generally connected to good scores.</p>
<p>It really is good to get a good match IMO.</p>
<p>“Those kids performed that way because of their natural abilities - which got them into those elite schools.”
-Yes, the most important “natural ability” is to work extrememly hard. There are geniuses with the photographic memory, if you are the one, why to even care a bit about your UG, go to the cheapest one. For the rest of humanity going the MD route is EXTREMELY HARD WORK, no regular valedictorian / ranked #1 at both HS / pre-med class, straight As, none of it is as important as ability to work very very hard.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If my kid has the numbers and I have the money, I’d rather send him or her into a highly competitive environment, where he or she is pushed by fellow scholars, at a place that has a history of excellence (in this case top percentile MCAT scores). If you want your elite kid to be in the minority at some mid-tier school, that’s fine. But most impressive kids don’t want to be the big fish in an untalented pond, they push themselves, compete and excel in the presence of a lot of elite kids.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’d rather have my kid in an environment of highly motivated elite “test takers” (i.e., SMART) than a place where the kid is one of the few elite “test takers”. Smart people want to be around and THRIVE in the company of other smart people. You’re stunting your child’s growth if you send them to a school they won’t be pushed.</p>
<p>“If my kid has the numbers and I have the money, I’d rather send him or her into a highly competitive environment, where he or she is pushed by fellow scholars”
-Every UG on a pre-med track. If you are not pushed (by yourself, not your pre-med friends), you will not make it, period, no matter the place. Again, the biggest talent needed is a talent to work extremely hard. It will be absolutely required at any lowest ranked UG and the top ranked #1 kid will not avoid it, I promise you. Not only swear by my kid personal experience but by all around her. The Med. School is a huge uqaulizer. It will not care, Ivy, state public, whatever, it will challenge them all and challenge to their absolute limits.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is not 100%. Some do prefer to be the big fish without a lot of effort and there’s nothing wrong with that. However, I know plenty of truly talented students who literally feel “at home” when they reach schools with oodles of their peers and equivalent challenging academic work. They visit the more selective schools and know they’ve found their niche. (This doesn’t mean the school has to be an Ivy.)</p>
<p>This is why I responded as I did in post #3 about “Why does anyone choose more selective schools?” It’s where they want to be and they tend to do well.</p>
<p>However, for the type who wants to do well without as much academic depth or those who need $$ just to go to college, there are other choices where they will do well and enjoy it - and make it in to med school.</p>
<p>Neither choice is wrong, but each can be wrong for any particular student.</p>
<p>^Academic depth will not make any difference, it is still way way off in comparison to a Med. School. How one can compare anyway. As I said, everybody is equally challenged at Med. School, graduation from Ivy does NOT help, not a bit, not in end of block exams, not when taking Step 1, there is no difference whatsoever, so how do you measure the UG academic depth then for the pre-meds? It is just a great theory that some want to rely on. In reality, it is up to a student and very much continue to be the case in Med. School.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Why are so many Ivy grads in elite med schools when Ivy grads make up such a small % of total college grads? Listing outliers doesn’t bolster or justify your claim that a lower tier school is “just as good”.</p>
<p>
Assuming that you are talking about high school, this is very true. When DS was in the elementary school, it was not “politically correct” to devote school’s resources to high performing kids. Actally, the whole school district was like this.</p>
<p>Our family decided to move to a particular school in another school district where it is OK to pay attention to the need of the students who are high achieving.</p>
<p>
While this is true (DS was in one of the elite college/med school so he knows this fact), please be aware that there are no lack of CCers who firmly believe that ALL medical schools are equally good, and there is no merit whatever if they attend an elite med school. Everybody can choose what they want to believe. Some may even acuse these ivy/elite college/me schools of “inbreeding.”</p>
<p>DS did say at one time that while he is in the school (rather than at home), he naturually would work harder after seeing so many of his peer students (more so in med school than in college) are working so hard. It is likely that, like a runner, he needs some "pacer who runs along with him. Not every student is like him in this regards though.</p>
<p>“Why are so many Ivy grads in elite med schools”
-Because they select from the valedictorian pool. Yes, they are overrepresented in my D’s Med. School class, so what? They are as challenged as the rest, including my kid who came from state public.<br>
There is no better or worse, not all. Go where you will be happy for 4 very important years of your life, you personally, not your best friend, not your BF, or GF, you should feel that you belong there. If it is Ivy, have $$, go there, if it is no ranked local college, then go there. You will work extremely hard at either, you will continue working much harder at Med. School, no matter where you went to UG.<br>
Some valedictorians will feel much happier and most will be presented with much more opportunities at state public. Not only by Merit awards. D. was hand picked by prof. for SI job, she got the best job on campus without applying, she did not need to prep. Gen. Chem for MCAT after explaining it for 3 years. Not sure if Ivy will teach her Gen. Chem better than that. I am very sure though, that she would not have this job if she went to an Ivy. Beisdes that, she did not have a single class that was taught by TA, she talked to others at private colleges, they have many of these. Her honors classes were tiny, would she have 15 kids in class if she went to Ivy.<br>
Others will list numerous advantages gong to an Ivy.
Comparison does not make any difference whatsoever. Whatever fits whoever, only personal effort will determine your future, thinking the other way may lead to a failure.</p>
<p>cc48009,</p>
<p>the counter argument is that the kids from ivy league school were high achievers before they set foot on an ivy league campus and that had they chosen to go somewhere else, they still would have been successful. The evidence for this is kids who did poorly at ivy league schools don’t fare better than kids who did well at lesser schools. If an ivy league education was really that superior, then wouldn’t that take precedence?</p>
<p>Now, whether or not the ivy league experience (i.e. everything about going to the school - extending far beyond the classes) is better or not is a very different discussion.</p>
<p>One point I keep forgetting…about shiny stars that get those Merit awards at Med. School…in the year that D. was entering, there were soooo many PhD, Masters of Science, lawyers,…etc., many also from Ivy and other Elite, that shiny star status was not exteneded much on those young ones who just graduated from their respective UGs (Ivys, Berkeley, JHU,…whatever). That led the adcom to apologize to D’s pre-med advisor while expressing a great hope that she (and her friend) will choose their Med. School without Merit offer. She did, but the friend went to Northwestern, which D. turned down. Again, personal fit…</p>
<p>"Why are so many Ivy grads in elite med schools "</p>
<p>For some reason, Ivy med schools believe the Ivy grads should be admitted in big numbers. I just don’t get that. :p</p>
<p>
Somewhat tangent to the discussion here, some SDNers claim that while the average STEP-1 score of, say, HMS, is not low by any standard, it is not many points higher than some schools that are ranked much lower if the latter schools recruit a higher percentage of students whe focus more exclusively on stats than ECs (e.g., those who are from California but who got “shot down” by H, JHU, UCSF, UCLA, Stanford because of their somewhat weaker ECs.) It was also rumored that the average STEP-1 score at UCSF is not that high, considering the caliber of the students they admit.) It is likely that the focus/mission of some of these elite med schools are different (e.g., research, more focus on clinical even in MS1/2.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is what many told us when we were investigating the whole “want to be a doctor” deal (since no one in our family has BTDT before). Any med school graduates doctors, but they differ in their focus. We didn’t investigate that further, but it makes sense. I mainly told my guy I’d help get him into an undergrad that fit (remember - he homeschooled middle/high school, so I was his guidance counselor and not just a helicopter parent). It was up to him to figure things out after that IF he decided to stay on the pre-med track (which, so far, he has, but it’s still up to him).</p>
<p>If my kid has the numbers and I have the money, I’d rather send him or her into a highly competitive environment, where he or she is pushed by fellow scholars, at a place that has a history of excellence (in this case top percentile MCAT scores). If you want your elite kid to be in the minority at some mid-tier school, that’s fine. But most impressive kids don’t want to be the big fish in an untalented pond, they push themselves, compete and excel in the presence of a lot of elite kids.</p>
<p>big fish in an untalented pond ??? What the heck? You’re calling a pond filled with kids with ACT scores of 29-36 “untalented”? You are incredibly naive. Those are top 7% of students. Those are the STEM/premed students at the “other” schools. I have news for you…when (and IF) your hiney ever ends up in a med school, your classmates will be from that same pool.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think you might be confusing UA’s Honors College (and UA with what, 25% of students in their HC?) with a mid tier or lower tier U. If I were to look at Millersville (I just did), a school where many of our grads go, I find that only 1% have SAT scores > 700 and none have ACT scores > 30. I also looked at York College of PA (another biggie locally) and the only thing different is 1% > 30 on the ACT. Yet kids get into med school from both these places and they were both recommended (locally) for my high stat guy. He’d have done very well at either, but I doubt he’d have been as happy as he is at his higher level research U.</p>