<p>Sounds of Silence- I disagree with almost all you are saying. You are obviously a young adult who has experienced a bad emotional growth placement. Hidden Lake is an excellent program. I caution the parents on here to seek further information- from me or elsewhere. Sounds of Silence is not providing correct information. I generally try to avoid confrontation on these boards, but I am familiar with the agenda of the people who bash parents who place their kids in emotional growth programs. I've heard all this before.</p>
<p>Alcohol, DUIs, some acting out, depression - I'm not a psychologist but would hazard to guess that there is more than straight-up depression going on here. Has she done Esctacy (sp?)? History of bipolar or alcoholism? Blood sugar problems? Perhaps some psychological, non-chemical issues - past abuse? sexual assault by someone she dated?</p>
<p>Therapy, not boot camp, might be the answer here.</p>
<p>MomofWildChild: I don't want this thread to turn into a pro-program/anti-program debate. I am able to back up everything I said. I have posted correct, truthful information about the dangers of placing a child in an emotional growth program. </p>
<p>I have no agenda. My only agenda is to give people truthful information, and to bring to the closing of abusive programs. Unlike the programs, I have no financial interest in this issue.</p>
<p>You, however, do sound like you have an agenda. You sound like a program parent to me. </p>
<p>I don't want this thread to turn into a debate, which is why this will be my last post here. If anyone wants additional information about this issue, please send me a private message.</p>
<p>1) College is not the issue now 2) Read daughter the riot act 3) Apply some tough love 4) focus on what she should do the next two years - then apply to college - work would help her focus on what's important, especially work with those less fortunate than her 5) figure out how to get her away from the "friends" with whom she's partipated in this drinking</p>
<p>whew.</p>
<p>Time to go hug my daughter...</p>
<p>You really have to wonder how she still had a car the second time. My parents would have removed the car and then my head.</p>
<p>I had a DUI at a similar age (18) and my license was supspended immeadiately afterwards, not even giving me the oppurtunity to drive for another year almost. The top private colleges might consider this a option to not take her, but most if not all state unis do not take into consideration crimes, unless its for drugs, which affects financial aid. Otherwise she will be fine. As for the alcohol problem, it is a total struggle to quit when you become addicted at such a young age. I was told to quit by the courts a couple of times and only recently was able to quit on my own after 13 some years of hardcore drinking. She will probably only quit when she is ready. Forced sobriety in my opinion did not work for me, and is a reason why many people continue drinking.</p>
<p>To the point about the car keys-- EXACTLY. Some of the parents have ceded all control. It is these parents who may not be equal to handling it on their own within the family.</p>
<p>I was the one who suggested an educational consultant-- but I also said to choose one who was experienced and referred.</p>
<p>I have had 3 2nd hand experiences with this situation. One was a friend whose child was totally out of control (poor parenting choices coupled with wrong peer group) and on drugs, one was a friend whose child had clinical depression, and one whose child was into Crystal Meth.</p>
<p>These parents could not control their situations. All three kids were in therapy and it was not solving the problem. </p>
<p>The first 2 kids went into the residential treatment/emotional growth programs that were recommended, the kind where the kid is grabbed in the dead of night. One was a year-long school style program recommended by an educational consultant and one was a three month outdoor ed program recommended by a psychologist. </p>
<p>Both these kids were helped very much by the programs-- in part because they were pulled out of destructive peer relationships and away from passive parents who had ceded control. The girl who went for one year is FINE, 3 years later; no drugs, in college, good family relationships. The kid who went to the 3 month program seems better but it is too early to tell. </p>
<p>In the third case the actions were delayed and delayed until the kid was over 18 and had gained the right to check herself out of anywhere. This one is still foundering. </p>
<p>I agree that these programs can be scary and some out there are bad. others are good. Listen to your instincts, and do everything you can to research any program. Buyer beware. But for some people these programs are life saving.</p>
<p>I partially agree with Big Green- college is not the issue- this young woman living to her 21st birthday is.
Has a history of depression- doesn't sound like she is getting help- is having to act out to get help.
I frankly agree that a well researched facility that has experience in helping young people find the strength to get through their adolescence may be the answer.
If I knew her mom, I might suggest a two week treatment program or at least a complete evaluation of the situation including the whole family, not making this girl feel like she is the only problem. I am all too familar with one family member being the "trouble" when she actually is the symptom not the cause.</p>
<p>This sounds like a major problem waiting to happen. Denying the drinking in the face of hard evidence is the kind of denial that is common in alcoholics. </p>
<p>Here's what I would recommend. Chances are, the very least Jane can expect with 2 DUI is referral to AA by the court. Her parents should go to Al-Anon NOW. Jane will resist AA, but since she will be required to sign in and out to satisfy the court, she will go. The success rate is very low because of the involuntary nature of the attendance, but her parents can increase their chances of success if they go to Al-Anon so they know what to expect. They should also see if they can get her to some Ala-teen meetings so she can hear from peers what they see when their parent(s) is drunk, and the tremendous stress it puts on them.</p>
<p>It really doesn't matter if she is "alcoholic" or not--the fact is that her drinking is causing major problems in her life.</p>
<p>My MIL was an alcoholic. That why I know this: on average, anyone caught driving drunk has driven drunk an average of 200 times previously. It is safe to assume that anyone caught driving drunk is an alcoholic. You can brush this aside as much as you want, perhaps get the record sealed at age 18, but the child needs alcoholism treatment. It is both an addiction and a physical illness. There are many reputable residential treatment programs for alcoholism. (I know, my MIL was in a dozen of them.)</p>
<p>dmd, you are correct in that most drunk driving goes unpunished. You are, however, wrong in assuming that anyone who gets a DWI is an alcoholic. An 18 year old who has 1 or 2 beers before driving on most weekend nights isn't a dangerous driver or an alcoholic, but could very easily get a DWI because of 0 tolerance laws, especially with the ridiculous roadblocks police set up. Plus, with BAC thresholds falling all the time (despite the lack of credible evidence that any bac <.10 has ANY significant impact on driving), more and more responsible drinkers of all ages are getting DWIs, espeically with all the time and effort police spend on catching DWI offenders (roadblocks, passive alcohol sensors, etc....).</p>
<p>Any DUI given out when the driver's BAC is below .10% is not for the public safety, it is just a forking money grab for the state, plain and simple!</p>
<p>Lucifer, glad you don't live in my neighborhood. A 16 year old girl who might weigh 110 lbs is most definitely impaired after 2 beers-- this is a kid who has been driving, what- 3 months? Lots of road experience there.</p>
<p>Thanks all for your thoughts...</p>
<p>I very much agree that college apps aren't towards the top of the priority list in this situation, but my mother and I were discussing Jane's future, and it came up... This info is really for my curiousity, and not for the family.</p>
<p>There is also a piece of information that I was missing when I started the thread. Apparently Jane had come home from friend's house drunk. The mom asked if she had been drinking, and Jane said no, although she obviously had been. Mom told Jane she was grounded, but Jane yelled at her, ran out, got in the car, and drove away. Mom, knowing Jane was heading to a certain friends house-- drunk-- called the police, and tipped them off, hoping that it would finally be a wake-up call to Jane.</p>
<p>This mother and daughter have had many struggles. Jane was sent to therapy, but would skip, she was put on medication, but would skip, was grounded, but would run away. The mother has reached the end of her rope. She is a single parent who works full time... really trying her best.</p>
<p>After Jane had her first DUI she was sentenced to alcohol counseling and community service. Her mother is revoking her license. The alcohol was being furnished by older teens at Jane's place of work, and now she will probably be forced to quit. We'll see what Monday's hearing brings...</p>
<p>Allowing this child to attend any college except one that requires she lives at home under supervision is asking for trouble. She can't handle freedom as it is.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Lucifer, glad you don't live in my neighborhood. A 16 year old girl who might weigh 110 lbs is most definitely impaired after 2 beers-- this is a kid who has been driving, what- 3 months? Lots of road experience there.
[/quote]
A swing and a miss... assuming that said 16 year old girl spent at least 1 hour drinking her beers, she would be OK to drive (as in less than .1 bac). Don't believe me? Take a look at these (and for the sake of argument, we'll assume this girl weighs 90 pounds, which is as low as most charts go) - </p>
<p><a href="http://www.health.org/nongovpubs/bac-chart/%5B/url%5D">http://www.health.org/nongovpubs/bac-chart/</a> - the girl would beat .05 (remember, subtract 1 drink per hour, so 2 beers = 1 drink over an hour)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.brad21.org/bac_charts.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.brad21.org/bac_charts.html</a> - .05 again</p>
<p>I can go get more charts if you'd like - bottom line is that 2 beers over 1 hour won't really impair anyone (except, maybe, for some 50 pound midget).</p>
<p>Not to mention that how long you've driven has NOTHING TO DO with how much you know about how alcohol affects driving ability.</p>
<p>Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I take particular offense to misinformation about drinking and driving being spread.</p>
<p>According to the first chart at <a href="http://www.health.org%5B/url%5D">www.health.org</a>, a 90 lb woman nursing one beer an hour would have have a 0.05 BAC and have her "driving skills affected" and "possible criminal penalties," (squares are colored in pink). The site definitely states that impairment comes with the first drink. </p>
<p>Frankly, drinking and driving don't mix. Cellphone use and driving don't mix. Changing the CD in your CD player in the car and driving don't mix. Playing your flute and driving (actually saw this one in San Francisco--he was steering the car with his knees) don't mix.</p>
<p>Kc_lady - I'm confused; first you wrote:
[quote]
Last week she was busted by the police for possession of alcohol, underage drinking and drunk driving. Last night she was arrested for her second offense (in one week!) of drunk driving.
[/quote]
Then you wrote,
[quote]
After Jane had her first DUI she was sentenced to alcohol counseling and community service.
[/quote]
It sounds like there is a 3rd DUI in there. It is extremely rare for a case to get to the sentencing point within a week of the arrest - about the only way that ever happens is if the person is in custody and pleads guilty at the first court appearance. (If the person bails out of jail, usually the first court date is scheduled for somewhat later - but people in custody need to be brought before a judge right away, usually the next morning after they were arrested).</p>
<p>I realize that procedures differ from state to state, but as an ex-lawyer with more than my share of experience handling DUI cases, something is not quite right about this story. Either the time line is wrong (or perhaps the daughter was sentenced on the first DUI "last week" rather than "busted") </p>
<p>As to the issue of DUI's in general, I agree pretty much with dmd77. It's possible for someone who is not a regular drinker to get one DUI -- but only someone with a very serious drinking problem ever gets a 2nd one. The non-drinkers who make a mistake learn from it - its a hard lesson, and one that anyone who can control their drinking would not make twice.</p>
<p>Also to lucifer: a 0.8 blood alcohol (the legal limit in my state and many others) leaves people plenty impaired. I've listened to too many police CAD tapes to think otherwise -- I mean, I've heard the person slurring their words and unable to answer the simplest questions, and then seen the b/a test results. In my state, police need to have probable cause before they can ask someone to take a blood alcohol test - so they administer field sobriety tests first - it is only after the person is unable to balance while walking a line, or to bring their fingers together, or recite the alphabet - that the blood alcohol or breathalyzer test is done. If the person is sober enough to pass that screening, they go home. </p>
<p>The situation is a little bit different for underage drivers -they will lose their license if there is any measurable amount of alcohol in their blood, and the police do not have to believe them to be drunk to require submission to a preliminary alcohol screening test.</p>
<p>Lucifer, I disagree.</p>
<p>I don't have any scientific evidence for you, just my firsthand experience that there are plenty of kids who couldn't safely operate a car after 2 beers.</p>