<p>"the world is a meritrocracy in every possible way and the only way to do it is to ruthlessly polish one's resume. "</p>
<p>Interesting. I never thought the Ivy Mania was about meritocracy. I always thought it was about prestige, bragging rights, connections and a host of other things not related to meritocracy. How else to justify the inclusion of some fairly mundane institutions in the "must have" category?"</p>
<p>No, the real problem with New Trier, and so many like places, is the importance families put on having the "right" things - clothes, transportation, address, college, clubs. </p>
<p>Frankly, I don't think a school itself can ever affect the underlying dynamics. The HS is merely a tool used by parents to achieve the parents' goals. I suspect many of these same parents view their kids in the same light.</p>
<p>Newmassdad, it is about connections and other stuff. But many parents see it as a meritrocracy....they are wrong, but that's how they see it. And getting into Ivies gets them into the meritrocracy (or their view of the meritrocracy) and the "right path". Many are extremely clueless as to how the wheels of power turn in this country and elsewhere. Or at least the wheels of money.</p>
<p>As a parent, I put great value on the 20 minutes lunch period at my S's school. Not only does it give him time to eat, but it is also a great opportunity to get together with friends who are quite diverse in every way. Many of these friends are in none of his classes or EC clubs. It's too bad that it's not mandatory at other schools.</p>
<p>20 minutes?
i will have to show this to students at my daughters school
They have been complaining to no end since their 60 minute lunch was reduced to 40 minutes! The whole school ( 1600+ ) does have lunch at the same time and since virtually everyone ( including freshmen who technically aren't allowed) goes off campus for lunch , that gives them a little more time to come back</p>
<p>marite, I agree with you in theory, but, as I said in my post above, at our school it would mean students like my daughter would have to drop either art or music (which are both major interests of hers which she plans to continue in college) if lunch was mandatory. So, even though our school has a lot of aspects which need improvement, in my mind, it is a plus that they allow students to not have a lunch so they can take the extra class. I agree with your point about the desirability of socializing with friends not in classes or ECs, but as far as stress, I don't think band and art class are very stressful classes, so they are still getting a break from sitting in class. listening to a teacher, taking notes, etc. in these classes.</p>
<p>Our school, c. 1800 students, runs two lunch periods, each for 20 minutes. I agree it's too short; I make lunch for my S, so he does not have to stand in line or go to a local restaurant or deli and stand in another line. He and his friends all seem to eat their lunch outside, rain or shine or snow.</p>
<p>Yes, a lot of the ivy wannabees are impressed with the power and connections of ivy grads. What they don't understand is that the grads' power and connections have nothing to do with their college, and everything to do with their families. </p>
<p>Of course, the ivies and other elites have no problem perpetuating the "misunderstanding". All to many ivy alums I know have commented on the balkanization of the student bodies between the preps and non preps.</p>
<p>I agree that it is important to take at least art or music and both would be great. This year my daughter had her slots filled with academic classes no art * or* music. ( Spanish/English/History/Biology/Math & a study skills class) when she was taken out of her study skills class a week after spring term began she was put into marketing, at least it was with her best friend that she otherwise didn't have classes with & it counts for an occupational ed class ( 3 are required for graduation)
I would have loved for her to have been in orchestra or band- the school is internationally known for its music program, but her elementary school quit offering instrumental lessons after 4th grade- middle school didn't have any either. Some parents paid for individual lessons, but we were already paying for tutoring. Art & music programs are among first programs cut around here- not on state standardized tests ya know :(</p>
<p>Recently (last 6 months or so), the Chicago Tribune published an article about either New Trier High School or Highland Park offering summer AP courses so kids could take even more high level courses. Summer school there is becoming the norm for these kids interested in getting ahead. The enrollment numbers were quite high. When I mentioned this to my kids who are at the top academically, they felt this is an awful idea. This was even suggested at our Board of Ed meeting but never moved further -- thank goodness, in my opinion. I know a parent whose kid is at New Trier; because of the large population, frosh interested in activities such as drama have VERY limited opportunities to participate. At our suburban high school, students are required to
have 4 semesters of visual/perfoming arts courses (I do believe that
Music Theory and Music Tech meets this). This is an incentive for the kids not to drop music or art. Recently our high school began offering
orchestra, band, and chorus as an Honors course to further encourage kids to continue and not be penalized academically.</p>
<p>newmassdad,
Just seeking clarification, here. Is it your assumption that every applicant to an Ivy is afflicted with "Ivy Mania" (as you pejoratively define that)? Because if so, I'd like to know how you generalize to know what the motivations are of most, let alone all, Ivy applicants.</p>
<p>And please name the "mundane institutions" in the "must-have" category. If these institutions are so (objectively, demonstrably) "mundane," I do wonder why they're supposedly "must-haves."</p>
<p>BTW, I can name a number of superficial reasons that some applicants have conceded are their reasons for applying to various non-Ivy schools -- both public & private. Some of these reasons definitely include "bragging rights" & a perception of superiority.</p>
<p>"What they don't understand is that the grads' power and connections have nothing to do with their college, and everything to do with their families. "</p>
<p>I strongly disagree. Your family history isn't described on your resume and, thus, has no bearing on your perceived worth. </p>
<p>Perception and reality are sometimes very difficult to separate. Actually, I was once told, by a corporate executive that "perception equals reality". Thus, I don't think it's fair to completely discount the value in a school's name - regardless of what you personally think of the value of that school.</p>
<p>"Just seeking clarification, here. Is it your assumption that every applicant to an Ivy is afflicted with "Ivy Mania" (as you pejoratively define that)? Because if so, I'd like to know how you generalize to know what the motivations are of most, let alone all, Ivy applicants."</p>
<p>Yes, that is my assumption, but who says I need to "know what the motivations are " in order to generalize? </p>
<p>Mundane? Try Brown, or Cornell. Good places both. So are a lot of other institutions. Brown, for instance, until recently, could not even meet all need of students. Endowments? In 2000, U. Rochester had a greater per student endowment than Penn, and almost as much as Brown or Cornell. Some ivies are good places, just not "to die for".</p>
<p>"Your family history isn't described on your resume and, thus, has no bearing on your perceived worth." Of course. And those that have the connections don't even NEED the resume. Dad just picks up the phone, calls the MD at Solly...</p>
<p>...and who said anything about "perceived worth"? Not me. My comment, if you look back, was about power and connections. After all, I've seen all too many comments on these boards about going to an ivy to "make connections" for life. A few do. A lot don't. Sad but true.</p>
<p>I don't really think it's fair to assume you know what most people think or want from a few CC quotes (as if they're typical students.) I don't know what interests my kids the least--power, connection, or money. None of that had any bearings in their choice of colleges (a selective LAC and a nonHYP Ivy.)</p>
<p>We've always seen education as an end in itself, not a means.</p>
<p>I take your point. I wonder if the competitiveness at New Trier has to do with its size. If there is only one orchestra, one football team, etc... being one of 4,000 halves one's chances compared to being one in 2,000.
As for the lunch period, it's particularly valuable b/c my S has not been with his agemates in many of his classes, and indeed, not been at school at all for some classes. So this is a good time to socialize and keep up with old friends and make new ones. But--he is not into music. or sports. His EC clubs are another good opportunity for socializing but they are less diverse in every way than his lunchtime crowd. That includes some academically average but artistically very talented kids.</p>
<p>My kids attend a large urban high school with 2000 students. The school has 7 periods of 50 minutes each and 2 30 minute lunch periods. Lunch is not an option. My kids were able to get all the academic classes they needed and then some. Each one took English, History, Science, Math and Foreign Language every year. That still left them with 2 periods a day for other things. PE and Health ate up one of those periods freshman and sophomore years, but they all were in band or orchestra every year as well. They were also able to fit in classes like music theory, creative writing and drama. </p>
<p>Youngest one wanted to take a "zero hour" (before school) class last year in hopes of taking an 8th class, but this was not allowed, and we, his parents, were not at all disappointed. And our school still gets kids admitted to top schools every year. I think that kids need some balance in life and cramming them full of absolutely everything is not the way to go.</p>
<p>Garland, who's talking about fairness here? I never said my assumptions were fair. More importantly, I'm only speaking of generalizations. Of course there are many exceptions. And, of course, a generalization is of little relevance when it comes to individuals. </p>
<p>I do find it amazing how sensitive so many folks are about any suggestion of "ivy mania". Yet many of these same folks (none in this discussion, of course...), while giving a long list of standard reasons for seeking an ivy admission, would never consider a Rochester, a Hopkins, a Northwestern (or any of a long list of fine schools) as a top choice, only as a safety. But heck, you don't get much in the way of bragging rights at Hopkins.</p>
<p>we had 9 periods in high school, one of them being lunch. lunch runs through periods 5,6, and 7. although it is mandatory to be scheduled, i know some kids who would leave and go to yearbook, or leave and go to the music rooms.. or art rooms. i believ ethey were 45 minutes each (it might be 40, i forget) with 5 minutes between. all seniors are permitted to leave campus for lunch, and juniors with a certain gpa are as well. seniors and juniors (with a certian gpa) are also aloud to spend their study halls as free periods wherever. (i'm not entirely sure how this works since they didnt do the free period thing when i went there, and my sister is only a sophomore). anyone with a study hall as their last period (9) can leave after 8th period, if their parents sign the permission slip.</p>
<p>my senior year looked like this:</p>
<p>Gym/Study hall - period 1
Humanities/Research Paper - period 2
Physics - period 3
pre school - period 4
Economics - period 5
lunch - period 6
calculus - period 7
italian/ computer graphics - period 8
study hall - period 9</p>
<p>So i went home after 8th period every day. my little sister also has 9th period study halls, but she doesn't have a ride home, so she has to stay for them.</p>
<p>Well, I find it amazing why one group of schools provokes so many people who aren't interested in any of them to opine on them at such great length.</p>
<p>And (though you weren't talking to any one else on the thread, of course) in our case, S had zero interest in the other seven members of this arbitrary group. Close second choice school was UMich (better not have been looking down his nose at it as a "safety" as he's the son of two alumni!). Made the choice in the end on the basis of location, size, and core curriculum. Had a few regrets during Football season!</p>
<p>See, your S is why generalizations are just that!</p>
<p>My angle on this mania is several fold. I work at one of those august institutions. I live in a hotbed of ivy mania - had friends basically say they'd d-- if their kid did not get into one. And, having grown up in the midwest, having gone to grad school on the west coast, I know first hand that there are other equally good (IMHO) choices.</p>
<p>My daughter has one of those 9 period school days at a medium sized school, 10th-12th=700+ students. She has gone without lunch all three years, at first because of band and then a combination of band and scheduling the classes she liked.</p>
<p>She snacked throughout, as she would have done at home in fact. When they attend a smaller school it is often very difficult to schedule the classes they want, as those classes are normally offered only once per day and often only one semester per year.</p>
<p>I don't know what to make of newmassdads comments. As I have come to learn, a rather disproportionate amount of the parents in the parents forums children attend either an ivy, or an elite university/LAC. Im old fashioned, if I want to know, say, the taste of honey, Ill ask someone who has tasted it, not someone who knows someone who has tasted it. Id probably apply the same thought process to a particular school and the pros and cons of attending, and the motivations of those who attended.</p>