Article about intense high schools, less being more.

Parents Forum
61

<p>hmm my H doesn't like them foreign cars- ( he drives a ford thunderbird and a 64' ford pickup)
But have you read this story about the Carhartt ball?
( Sorry I am off track I have ADD)
<a href="http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200210/200210_carhartt_1.adp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200210/200210_carhartt_1.adp&lt;/a>

[quote]
Grab a pair of XXLs and head up to Talkeetna, Alaska, where Carhartts aren't just the clothes the plumber wears and every year the populace gathers to swap tales of heroic trousers and death-defying overalls. Can you survive the Carhartt Ball?

[/quote]
</p>

62

<p>emeraldkity4,</p>

<p>The Carhartt Ball is the place I would go to meet women...yeah, I'm that dumb. However, I lucked out and meet the women of my dreams long ago--I should say, dumb but lucky.</p>

63

<p>NMD,
I wonder if you realize how frequently within this thread you have been contradicting yourself.</p>

<p>You say "Yes" to my question regarding your assumptions about <em>all</em> Ivy applicants, yet in the next breath, state that you wouldn't know about the motivations of those applicants, when the Ivy Mania description you provide in fact encompasses motivations.</p>

<p>You're quite free about your sweeping generalizations, yet reply to one poster who cites his son's motivations as a contrast, that generalizations are not useful. (I agree, they're not.)</p>

<p>You're fine with Absolutes when it comes to the world of Ivy applicants, yet admit that you work in a "hotbed" (relative to interest in the Ivies, etc.), suggesting disproportionate interest not applicable to all US regions, let alone foreign countries. Simply put, your work environment is not representative of the universe of those students seeking admission to one or 8 Ivies. Possibly you are in a position to assess accurately, or approximately, the overarching reasons for Ivy interest among your contacts in your environment. Period.</p>

<p>In my D's small senior class, there were 4 Ivy applicants. Three of them had a Short List (one or two) of particular Ivies for specific reasons, which did not relate to the "Ivy Mania" you describe. The fourth person seems to be esp. into "bragging rights" & "prestige," fueled somewhat by her parents, somewhat by herself. (Neither parent went to an Ivy, but seem particularly invested in them emotionally.) Does this mean that I can even generalize to saying that as many as one-quarter of all Ivy applicants are "Ivy Maniacs"? Maybe it's one quarter, maybe 3/4, maybe another figure. Neither your nor my environment has any value when it comes to generalizing, which you are doing.</p>

<p>There are thousands of Ivy applicants who do not live near, have parents working in, or have a legacy pertaining to, any Ivy. These same applicants may be applying for reasons not pertaining to "Mania." Certainly often they are applying (ironically) quite <em>against</em> their parents' wishes.</p>

<p>There are phonies in every environment. There are parents at my D's school who enrolled their children there for reasons of prestige, etc., rather than for the intellectual atmosphere it provides. Does that mean that my D should not have chosen that school -- which in fact provided her with the top-notch education she sought, & anticipated 4 yrs ago, without respect to "prestige"? She should not have even associated with a school that includes wealthy non-achievers among its student body?</p>

<p>You will find, btw, that many Ivy applicants with non-"Mania" motives also applied to U of Chicago, as well as some highly reputable LACs here & there. That might give you a little clue as to what those Ivy applicants are seeking in a 4-yr education (beyond "Mania").</p>

<p>Or perhaps we should just do away with the Ivies altogether, being that they're imperfect (some of them, lol, are "mundane") & contain imperfect students, parents, professors.</p>

<p>When you find the pristine academic environment which can guarantee a student body with 100% virtuousness of motive, do let us know.</p>

64

<p>
[quote]

Evanston is definitely NOT the school in Mean Girls. I'm pretty sure it was filmed in Toronto.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>GuitarShredder: I just checked it up and I am mistaken. Evanston is the school the movie was BASED off of, not where it was filmed.</p>

<p>From <a href="http://www.currentfilm.com/dvdreviews5/meangirlsdvd.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.currentfilm.com/dvdreviews5/meangirlsdvd.html&lt;/a> - "The film takes place in North Shore High School, which is apparently based upon the very real Evanston Township High School in Evanston, IL. However, it often seems like a more accurate portrayal of Evanston's nearby rival, New Trier."</p>

65

<p>"Three of them had a Short List (one or two) of particular Ivies for specific reasons, which did not relate to the "Ivy Mania" you describe." </p>

<p>Yes, one always has "other" reasons for selecting such places. Heck, when asked, I bet most would say they applied IN SPITE of their prestigious reputations. Then when one gets in, watch how fast the decals go onto the car (sorry, the Lexus SUV.)</p>

<p>If it is any help, did you ever stop to think that the word "all" is a collective noun (or as in this case, a collective adjective), as opposed to "each"?</p>

<p>You asked a simple question, got a simple answer. You want a nuanced answer, ask an appropriate question. </p>

<p>Geesh, some folks sure take this stuff seriously. Lighten up.</p>

66

<p>"Geesh, some folks sure take this stuff seriously. Lighten up."</p>

<p>You are funny....lighten up huh.</p>

<p>I always thought of Chicago as a great school. You should be able to be proud of it without the additude. I see decals for Ruters day in and out; for our local schools of Caldwell College and Montclair State, for community colleges; heaven forbid, but I've seen UChicago; are you saying they are all doing it for the prestige? That would be a very cynical view indeed. I’ve always thought it was for the pride of and devotion to their schools—not themselves. It must be a real trial for you to drive down the highway everyday and see all these people and their “prestige, bragging rights.”</p>

<p>What's your point with the decals--it seems obsessive. Many people are proud of and loyal to their schools and the schools of their children. We don't have any decals on our car right now--our daughter's a senior in high school--but if she wanted to show her pride in and loyalty to her school I'm not such a hard a s s that I would say-- no, I'm dad and I insist on no add ons, blah blah blah.</p>

<p>“I would describe Chicago as the "anti-Ivy", because so many people outside the academic world don't know of it. Many here think it is a state U, for instance”</p>

<p>don’t be so sensitive, lighten up massdad, Chicago is a great school! You should be proud not resentful.</p>

67

<p>Actually, on CC at least, it seems many Ivy admits don't rush for the Ivy decals because Merit U $$ is too tempting. Just my observation. Not a generalization. God forbid.</p>

<p>But speaking of intensity...funny how 'intense' this consversation has become. Funny how the point of the OP--perhaps we're creating a 'too intense' atmosphere for our kids--fell by the wayside. Along with lunch. </p>

<p>I love lunch. My mother lives for lunch. It's in the genes, but it sometimes results in too tight jeans. :(</p>

68

<p>Geesh, the decal comment was only meant as one example. And, as for Chicago, who said anything about being resentful? To the contrary. But, if you note the screenname, you might (correctly) conclude that I live in a part of the country where only one athletic conference means anything.</p>

<p>It seems a few people here are pretty sensitive about the prestige issue, and are spending a lot of time denying it???</p>

69

<p>Hey, I bet there is many a striving parent who thinks, I'm glad that New Trier is slacking off. Now if some other top schools would just do so, than my kid will have a better chance at an Ivy.</p>

<p>For what it is worth my kid sees many top students in his school who use UT Austin as a safety since they meet the top 10 % rule and are auto admits. They then apply to 8 to 10 of the top 15 schools. Hard to think prestige doesn't have something to do with that, though many will deny that.</p>

<p>Also how can some parents applaud the reduction of pressure at New Trier when they seem to seek those colleges that promise the hardest work load.</p>

<p>Reed, a college I was predisposed to like, sent us a brochure that struck me as just frankly obnoxious. "We're Reed College and we are the toughest school in the country" seemed to be the message.</p>

70

<p>We didn't really get flyers from Reed- my daughter was below their stats- but we did seek them out because a neighbor had attended and because teh description he gave piqued interest.
I agree that is one of the more obnoxious traits of Reed, that they can aspire to do things the hard way- just because- not necessarily the best way or the only way- just the hard way. Like * if you can make it here. you can make it anywhere*
I don't think my daughter paid too much attention to that message, she wanted to find out more about Reed initially because of the "cat" dorm- that was just too cool for her.</p>

<p>I didn't pay attention to the brochures and videos etc that were sent & I know my daughter barely glanced at them.All advertising starts to sound the same after a while- Diversity! Challenge! Free Pie!</p>

71

<p>"It seems a few people here are pretty sensitive about the prestige issue, & are spending a lot of time denying it."</p>

<p>Wow. (That would be you, newmassdad.)</p>

<p>I agree with Woodwork's comment: you, nmd, seem to be the one needing lightening up.</p>

<p>And Woodwork, I'll answer for nmd, the question you posed to him: Yes, he is (obviously) saying that <em>everyone</em> seeks an Ivy, and/or puts a decal on a car for reasons of prestige alone (doubtful that my D would; she hates flashing prestige or doing self-promotion). Note the sarcastic & condescending comment he made about "all" -- as if I'm grammar-challenged. I'm not, thank-you.</p>

<p>And, nmd,
Um, no one with half a brain & half a solid high school education thinks U of Chicago is a State School. However, I've noticed how often you have conveniently refused to address the fact that many Ivy applicants also apply to U of Chicago (as well as several LACs & a number of publics -- all simulataneously). Gee, I wonder if those probably well-qualified applicants think Chicago is a State School. (Please.)</p>

<p>I think a term you used in reference to UofC aptly refers to yourself as well. (Anti-Ivy.) We get it: you hate Ivies, & you believe 100% (collective nouns, pronouns, adjectives, adverbs: um, yes, I know what those are) of students applying to any of the 8 Ivies are doing so for suspiciously egotistical reasons, no matter what their backgrounds, circumstances, knowledge of "prestige" is or isn't, whatever their personalities are -- shy, modest, unassuming, or conceited, prestige-seeking, etc. We also understand how clairvoyant you are about students not in your work/live environment, & how entitled you are to pre-judge what their <em>later</em> reactions will be to attending Cornell, Penn, Brown (-- oh whoops, I forgot: Mundane Cornell & Brown), Columbia, etc. They will <em>all</em> ("collectively") put decals on their cars (none of which will be hybrids, sedans, compacts, etc.) I'm sure that news will be interesting to my D, who will probably be so poor after grad school & earn such an entry level salary in her humanities interest that she'll never be a Lexus buyer. (She's so frugal she probably wouldn't buy one if she HAD the $$. Oh, but no, wait: That's right! You know my D; you know she'll be corrupted by those evil Ivies, which will transform her personality overnight into a prestige-flaunting individual lacking any class or restraint. Sorry, I forgot how universal your wisdom is.)</p>

<p>You are too funny. Recently my D and I were talking about how I've never owned anything, including a sweatshirt, with my alma mater's name on it, but that I might want to get a license plate frame from said (Public) alma mater for my next (that would be compact, non-luxury) car, given that it's about time I own up to my pride in being an alum. Dang! If I only realized what an obnoxious statement that would be making. I should have checked first with NMD, the decal-police.</p>

<p>(Rolls eyes.)</p>

72

<p>Epiph,</p>

<p>I'm not sure why you stoop to personal attacks in order to get your point across. Until this post, I have NEVER made any comment about your or your family's motivations, interests or whatever. Nonetheless, you seem to take every comment as a personal affront. You are entitled to read into posts what you want, but you have no right to question my motives "you hate Ivies", drag my family and my D's decisions into discussions such as this or nsult my friends and acquaintences by implying they lack "half a brain & half a solid high school " by not knowing U. Chicago better.</p>

<p>I'm frankly sorry I ever bothered to present an alternative view to you. You seem to be fixated on your own world view. Sad. I hope you are a bit more open to discussion with your own family than you are with strangers.</p>

73

<p>NMD,</p>

<p>I sent you a private message. This thread was not designed for this tired discussion, I suppose.</p>

74

<p>I again apologize for bringing this up and causing this furor. I don't know why I did it. March madness, I suppose. </p>

<p>I promise not to pontificate again and use muddled thinking to do that. It was really stupid of me....but hey people do stupid things too.</p>

<p>Guys, let's move on, close this thread and be friends again.</p>