Asian Americans

Applying to College
61

<p>OK, so you don't account for everyone. and the fact that you have only applied to a few ivys may make you the rare bird.</p>

<p>By the same token, my D who attends an Ivy (she only applied ot one, and wasn't trying to chase a name) and is Black, did not make it in to her school with the "lower standards" that seem the be the rhetoric on this forum. </p>

<p>I am by no means wealthy, and yes, I am an american black whose roots are in the south and whose ancestors have been here since slavery. </p>

<p>So when these types of statments are made, it minimizes the fact that my D went to an excellent public school, had 4.0/4.0 gpa, 4/5's on her APs as a result of taking the most rigerous curriculum her school offered, has taken college courses, stellar SAT & SATII scores don't matter, thad the time and commitment to her EC's, has held leadership positions does not seem to matter because hat simply got in because of the color of her skin.</p>

<p>You state:</p>

<p>But it's also unfair for you, sybbie, to assume asians are not looking to schools beyond the HYP circle. Have you read some of the "stats" on the chances board or for the individual schools- nuff said!</p>

<p>But you seem taken a back by generalizations. Do you have the monopoly on feelings? How do you think blacks who have worked their ass off to get into good schools feel? Do you feel that black parents aren't working just as hard for their kids to have better opportunities.</p>

<p>You stated:</p>

<p>"if you pull up the statistics for asians, you probably won't find TOO much of a difference at most of those schools - excluding Harvard probably."</p>

<p>So in the spirit of of equal time the Number of Asians at Ivy league schools for the same period of time are as follows:</p>

<p>238 Harvard
93 Dartmouth
394 Cornell
214 Brown
150 Princeton
207 Yale
189 Columbia
423 Penn</p>

<p>With the exception of princeton the number of Asians are more than the number of African Americans & Hispanics COMBINED.</p>

<p>Regarding your statement: </p>

<p>It's also a little skewed to compare the number of black students at a HISTORICALLY black college with the numbers of black students at the top universities in the country.</p>

<p>This is to let you know that all blacks with grades that could get them to the Ivys are not flocking there but are looking at other options such as the HBCU's (especially Howard, Spelman, Morehouse & Hampton)</p>

<p>But the one thing that we do agree on is that this whole situation has just blown the competition between races and friends way out of proportion, when we are being blind to the FACT that almost 90% of those that apply to all of the ivy's combined will be rejected.</p>

62

<p>VernonWe, Sybbie, ect</p>

<p>Continue to ignore the issue at hand and give irrelavent information on the matter. The point isn't whether college have a legal right to considure race, but if it moral or ethical of them to. You have said nothing to show why it is morally and ethically right for a rich black person should get extra considuration over a more qualified but highly impoverish vietnamese student, because that is what you are adovocating.</p>

63

<p>It seems that you are the one who is missing the point! no matter how many people tell you that it is about more than number, you keep coming back to that (BTW my D had numbers that put her incontention to be admitted in to her ivy)</p>

<p>Where did you see where I said I was rich???</p>

64

<p>"And colleges do reject students because they are asian that is the basis of AA"</p>

<p>VTboy, did you go to law school? i've never heard a better explanation of affirmative action.</p>

<p>"These schools that are advocating racial peference and discrimination during admissions are getting federal money. I am paying for them to discriminate and I shouldn't have to."</p>

<p>yeah, VTtaxpayingadult!</p>

<p>"I am not going to justify this highly racist and offensive post with a responce."</p>

<p>ceci n'est pas une reponse</p>

<p>what made you change your mind? and why was my post removed? why is it offensive to say that i consider more than half of the chinese students i've met boring grade-grubbers? i didn't make any race related general remarks, i only made a statement based on personal observation. btw. here's an example: <a href="http://www.julianhan.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.julianhan.com&lt;/a>. he's asian AND he got into harvard, how do you explain that? </p>

<p>WOW, You need to learn some facts before you attack people. All you have done is use ad hominem attacks. Anyone with a brain knows ad hominem attacks don't work.</p>

65

<p>"Where did you see where I said I was rich???"</p>

<p>YOU ARE ADVOCATING AA, The basis of AA means giving extra considuration to all blacks including rich blacks, even over an impoverish Vietnamese, Asian, or other non URM.</p>

66

<p>Let me ask you a question, why was AA the greatest thing since sliced bread when people of color began flocking to schools that they would have not otherwise had gotten into with out it. Asians have been one of the biggest benefactors of AA.</p>

67

<p>" Let me ask you a question, why was AA the greatest thing since sliced bread when people of color began flocking to schools that they would have not otherwise had gotten into with out it. Asians have been one of the biggest benefactors of AA. "</p>

<p>First back then it was different, back then due to racist laws that kept minorities down all minorities where under represented, and all minorties had high poverty rates, but to day AA is about giving extra benfits to someone of one color over somone over another. There are races with poverty rates much much worst than blacks, but they don't get AA. </p>

<p>Second many Asian subgroups have never benifited from AA, or havn't benifited in any significant way. For example Vietnamese refugee, who children didn't get any extra benfits when applying to colleges simply because they where Asian.</p>

68

<p>Sybbie said:</p>

<p>"Let me ask you a question, why was AA the greatest thing since sliced bread when people of color began flocking to schools that they would have not otherwise had gotten into with out it. Asians have been one of the biggest benefactors of AA."</p>

<p>The is absolutely basis in truth for the statement above</p>

<p>Please click on the Parents Forum for a complete discussion:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=1592%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=1592&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>There is much information on this issue, but the media does not publicize this issue because it is politically incorrect.</p>

<p>Asian Americans to my knowledge HAVE NEVER received race-based AA in elite
college admissions. They never asked for it, nor they want it or require
it for admissions to Harvard or the elites. Race-based AA discriminates against Asians Americans with de facto quotas limiting their numbers, not increasing their numbers,
no matter what criteria or standards are used for admission EVEN EXCLUDING
SAT SCORES AND GPAs. Asian Americans have all the characteristics necessary
for admission, including sports, special talents, motivation, hard work,
creativity and the overcoming of hardships and economic disadvantage.</p>

<p>Of course if you factor in SAT scores and GPAs Asian Americans will win
hands down without considering other criteria for admissions. What I am
saying is that even if you FACTOR OUT SAT scores and GPAs and use holistic
criteria only, leaving race out as a factor for admissions, Asian Americans
are also disproporrtionately qualified. THEY ARE NOT ONE-DIMENSIONAL
PRE-MED VIOLINIISTS, according to the RACIST stereotypes used by some,
because they are in every field of study and endeavor and in every field of
extracurricular activities on the college campus.There is no truth to this
stereotype. For instance, just look at the writers for the Harvard Crimson
or any other college newspaper. There are hardly ANY Blacks or Latinos as
writers on the college newspaper staffs, but many Asian Americans .Students at Brown even bemoaned this fact. Look at Harvard's 41 varsity sports teams which are
non-contact, such as tennis or gymnastics. Asians are well represented. The
Yale women's team in Gymnastics won the Ivy Championship last year with
their best NATIONALLY ranked female gymnast, Ms. Fong, a Chinese American,and a graduate of St. Ann's School in Brooklyn, NYC, a prestigious day prep ranked as a top feeder for the Ivies by Worth Magazine and the Wall Street Journal. The best tennis player on the Exeter's New England Prep League Championship team was a Chinese American last year which enabled the team to dominate in its league. Andover's best female swimmer on their women's League championship team this year is a Korean born swimmer who qualified for the summer Olympics and enabled the Andover team to dominate female swimming. I could go on and on tto break these racist stereotypes of Asian American students.</p>

<p>We must eliminate race-based admissions. Admissions must be race-neutral.</p>

<p>Asian Americans are required to meet a higher standard of achievement for
admissions and this most highly qualified group are admitted at the lowest
rates compared to very other group, including whites.</p>

<p>Studies (done internally when charges of bias were presented) at Brown and
Stanford have clearly disputed the stereotyped image of an Asian American
applicant as being "one dimensional" with no extracurricular activities
except for music. This image only existed in the biased views of the some
of the admission officers. These studies have shown that there was an
unexplained bias in admissions and in fact, the Asian American group
appeared better prepared by any standards used, yet had only a 60% to 70%
admission rate compared to the white applicant group at Stanford. The
Admissions Dean of Stanford could not explain the disparity, but at least
she admitted that there was one. Many of the heads and admission officers
of the elite schools don't even acknowledge that the problem even exists.
The Asian applicants were better prepared than the white group, yet have a
lower admission rate.</p>

<p>Stanford's Committee on Undergraduate Admissions and Financial Aid
discovered, after an inquiry, that between 1982 and 1985 Asian Americans
were one-third less likely than whites to be offered admission, even though
they were on average better prepared than white applicants. Annual Report
of CUAFA, Stanford University, 1986, reprinted in "Campus Report",
November 12, 1986.</p>

<p>Some admissions officials have complained that Asian Americans tend to be
lacking in extracurricular and personal qualities, which universities
consider along with grades to ensure that they get well-rounded
individuals. But there is no systematic evidence to this; indeed a report
by the Corporation Committee on Minority Affairs (CCMI) at Brown,
established to investigate charges of anti-Asian discrimination, found such
assumptions to be the result of "cultural bias and stereotypes which
prevail in the admissions office." In the early 1980s, these attitudes
contributed to a 14% acceptance rate for Asians, who are on the average the
best qualified applicants to Brown, compared to the other students who
averaged an acceptance rate of 20%. See Report of CCMI, Brown University,
February 1984. Between 1978 and 1986, there was a 430% increase of Asian
Americans applying to Brown, but the number of these students remained
fairly constant. Grace Tsang, "Equal Access of Asian-Americans", "Yale Law
Journal", January 1989, pp. 659-78.'</p>

69

<p>Correction:</p>

<p>Sybbie said:</p>

<p>"Let me ask you a question, why was AA the greatest thing since sliced bread when people of color began flocking to schools that they would have not otherwise had gotten into with out it. Asians have been one of the biggest benefactors of AA."</p>

<p>There is absolutely no basis in truth for the statement above.</p>

<p>Please read the post above.</p>

70

<p>Also you talk about increasing diversity in school, then why not give AA to all URM groups.</p>

<p>Look at vietnamese only 16% of vietnamese have a college degree which is about equal to that of blacks, what about other SEA groups who only have a 5% college degree rate. Out side of Vietnamese SEA have the highest poverty rates, the highest school dropout rates, and the lowest college attendence rates. Much worst than those of blacks, yet many schools with AA don't give any preference to these people. If it trully was about increasing diversity why not give preference to URM Asian groups.</p>

<p>This will be my last post on any topic on AA. It just ugly when you talk about it since everyone has their own opinion and is really passionat about it.</p>

71

<p>Sybbie, </p>

<p>That's 15,000 blacks alone admitted under race-based AA using racial preferences for admissions. You conveniently forgot all the other schools that practice AA. These other 15,000 blacks, admitted under lowered standards thru AA, have "displaced spots" from more academically stellar students relatively speaking , in the most competitive to just competitive schools in the country. That's 15,000 spots that are displaced in all these 150 schools which practice race based AA. It's all relative. What about the elite state universities which admit hundreds of blacks under lowered standards with race based AA? Race based AA is practiced in more than 150 schools, not just the 8 Ivies. What about schools like U.of Texas, U.of Florida, U.of Georgia, U.of Washington, U.of Michigan, U.of Oregon, Northwestern, U.of Chicago, MIT, Duke, Stanford, Rice, Wellesley, Barnard, Bryn Mar, Williams, Amherst, Carlton, and so on??? It was estimated by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Eduaction, that if raced based AA was not practiced in all the competitive schools with blacks admitted with lowered standards, these 150 schools would only have less than 2% blacks instead of the 6 to 8%. Race based AA placed these 15,000 blacks into these spots, displacing more academically stellar students..</p>

72

<p>wow, i have numerous things to say on this issue! first of all, i don't think many people understand how the admission process works. adcoms seperate applications into Hispanic pile, Asian-Am pile, African-American pile, Caucasian pile, and so on... therefore, Asian-Americans are only competing with their race. The truth is that many African-Americans, Hispanics, and American Indians obtain low scores, so they don't have as much competition. When it comes down to it, you are only competing with you race. So for a white person to say that a black person took their spot is just rediculous. A black person did not take your spot, if anything be mad at the white person, or better yet... be mad at yourself for not having the sufficient credentials to be admitted in the first place.</p>

<p>I also agree with VTBoy that Asian-Americans are unfortunately sometimes descriminated. My uncle is a college professor at a private university. He once told me there were 5 openings available for a specific program that thousands of people applied to. He said that out of those thousands were many Asian-Americans with perfect scores that they simply pushed aside. They ended up giving the spots to: 2 caucasians, 1 hispanic, 1 african-american, and a professor's daughter. That simply irritated me!</p>

<p>i think it's funny how people here argue if they're for or against AA, but you all know that when it comes down to it: the athlete will submit their tape, the african-american will write a wonderful essay regarding the difficulties of being a minority, and the legacy will make sure the college knows they are a legacy. With all that being said... I'm hispanic and will be checking the hispanic box.</p>

73

<p>VT said,</p>

<p>"Look at vietnamese only 16% of vietnamese have a college degree which is about equal to that of blacks, what about other SEA groups who only have a 5% college degree rate. Out side of Vietnamese SEA have the highest poverty rates, the highest school dropout rates, and the lowest college attendence rates. Much worst than those of blacks, yet many schools with AA don't give any preference to these people. If it trully was about increasing diversity why not give preference to URM Asian groups.'</p>

<p>The most unfair part of this is that this higher performing impoverished Vietnamese American with stellar grades, scores and ECs is rejected while a more affluent lower performing black with the all the advantages of his affluence (prep school, SAT Prep, travel, suburban schools, etc.) is admitted with lower grades, scores, etc.. in this zero sum game of admissions..</p>

<p>The proof of this is in the demographics of the admitted blacks in the elite colleges where the vast majority are underperforming and underacheiving (relative to the rest of the class) admitted with lowered standards despite coming from the middle, upper-middle and the upper economic classes. Over 2/3 of Harvard's blacks are affluent. Less than 10% of Harvard's and also the Ivies' and elite colleges' blacks, qualify for a Pell Grant, given to students in the lower economic class. Why do these AFFLUENT blacks desevre admission solely based on the color of their skin? This race based AA does not benefit lower class blacks who are even MORE underperforming and underacheiving and solves absolutely nothing in closing the racial gaps in academic achievement. </p>

<p>The beneficiarcies of race based AA at Harvard are lower performing middle and upper-middle class blacks admitted with lowered standards, 2/3s of whom are not even descendants of black American slaves, but of Carribbean and African immigrants. Race based AA does not benefit underachieving poorer lower class blacks, AA's intended target, but gives preferential treatment to underacheiving and underperforming affluent blacks who are admitted with lowered standards based solely on race. This simply wrong, unfair, unjust and immoral.</p>

<p>The biggest little well-kept secret in this scenario is the fact that the richest and most affluent blacks with family incomes of over 100k/year and parents with college and graduate degrees, underperform and underachieve when compareed to the poorest Asian Ams and whites with family incomes of less than 30k/year and parents with less than a high diploma. Also, poor Asians even outperform affluent whites. It is all RELATIVE.</p>

<p>Think about this fact. Many are in denial of this statement above. All studies have proven the above statement.</p>

74

<p>Veronwe, my point is simple. Nedad based his arguments on the fact that the elite schools are private and therefore allowed to do what they want. Well, if you follow that argument, then you must agree that what the elite colleges used to do prior to the 50's as far as their deliberately racist admissions and hiring policies was also perfectly legit. In other words, if it is fair that elite colleges are allowed to admit or deny certain people admission today based on race because they're private colleges, then it is just as equally OK for those same colleges to have deliberately denied admission to blacks, Hispanics, women, and whoever back in the 40's and prior again because they were private schools and could do whatever they want to do. So those black students who complained about unfairness back in those days were completely wrong to complain, because nedad said it himself -those colleges, because they are private, they decided who they would admit or not, and those spots that those blacks were complaining were denied to them were never theirs in the first place. So those blacks were completely unjustified in complaining about discrimination. Right?</p>

<p>The point is this. You can't have it both ways. If it it's fair today, then it was fair in the past. Hey, if that's what you believe, then fair enough. Just say so.</p>

<p>Furthermore, your argument about laws unfortunately dodges the issue. Please don't tell me that just because something is the law does not necessarily mean that it's necessarily right. Again, racial discrimination was perfectly legal before the 1960's. Surely you're not saying that the deliberate discrimination that the elite colleges engaged in the past was justified simply because it was legal? So if you ask Harvard why they admitted so few blacks in the first half of the 20th century, and they reply that that was because they were perfectly legally allowed to discriminate against blacks back in those days, are you going to accept that as a good reason? </p>

<p>So I might go along with your statement that colleges build communities based on what they want in a particular year. Funny how prior to the 60's, those colleges wanted very very few minorities and so few women. But, again to follow your logic, if those colleges back in those days wanted to build such communities with only WASP-y males (which most apparently did), you see nothing wrong with them dong that, right?</p>

75

<p>i think america take asians for granted...asians be smart and sh!t and initially a minority, but since asians be smart, they aint no minority wen applying for a school...asians should be considered a minority and be given the admission lenience latinos and african americans get...cuz asians are being punished for being smart...that is not right</p>

76

<p>Sakky said,</p>

<p>"The point is this. You can't have it both ways. If it it's fair today, then it was fair in the past. Hey, if that's what you believe, then fair enough. Just say so."</p>

<p>I agree with you.</p>

<p>Another simple way to phrase this is; </p>

<p>"If racial preferences in admissions to the Ivies and all the more than 100 other elite (Amherst., Williams, Vassar, Bryn Mar, etc..) colleges for White Anglo-Saxon Protestants were legally and immorally wrong before WW II and the 1960s, then racial preferences for blacks and latinos are most immorally wrong today.</p>

<p>Simple to understand. </p>

<p>The wrong of yesterday (racial preferences for WASPS) in no way justifies the wrong of today (racial preferences for blacks) today.</p>

<p>Two wrongs do not make a right.</p>

77

<p>"Pimpin..ain't easy" said, </p>

<br>


<br>

<p>I agree, IT IS NOT RIGHT, but Asian Americans are not asking for preferential treatment based on their race, just as long as preferential treatment is not given to anyone else based soley on their race in this zero-sum game of admissions.</p>

<p>Asian Ams, as well as blacks, whites and latinos should be given perference for economic disadvantage or "first in family to attend college", but they should not be given preference for the color of their skin. The aforementioned preferences TRANSCEND race.</p>

<p>The majority of blacks admitted to the Ivies and the elite colleges are AFFLUENT blacks admitted with the race preference or given preferential treatment with lowered standards for admission through AA despite coming from the upper-middle classes. If these blacks were admitted with the same standards as the rest of the class, they would not need preferential treatment with AA. It is estimated by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education that if the racial preference for blacks were not given in the Ivies and the other top elite colleges that have 6% to 8% blacks with lowered admissions standards, there would be less than 2% blacks in these schools. There would be less than 2% blacks in the Ivies and the 100 elite colleges that use AA, if Blacks were NOT admitted with the racial preference, simply they cannot meet the standards of admission that the rest of the class was admitted with.</p>

<p>Asian Americans are being punished by race based AA simply because they are a more stellar group of applicants by working hard and persevering which requires them to have a higher standard of achievement than any other group, including whites, in order to be admitted.</p>

<p>American Jews, a most stellar group of applicants, were punished in the same manner with quotas and racial and ethnic preferences for WASPS. Jews were limited to a few in number pre-WW II. Other minorities were limited as well. Today, there are no quotas for Jews in the Ivy League and the 100 elite colleges. Today Jews are over 30% of Harvard and 35% of UPenn and they are 2.5% of the population. </p>

<p>Today, there are de facto quotas on Asians based on "racial diversity", two words synomous with "de facto racial quota" and Asian Ams are limited in numbers.</p>

<p>Admissions should be race neutral and ethnic group neutral.</p>

78

<p>Corection:</p>

<p>Incorrect: </p>

<p>"If racial preferences in admissions to the Ivies and all the more than 100 other elite (Amherst., Williams, Vassar, Bryn Mar, etc..) colleges for White Anglo-Saxon Protestants were legally and immorally wrong before WW II and the 1960s, then racial preferences for blacks and latinos are most immorally wrong today."</p>

<p>Corrected: Replace the word "immorolly" with "morally"</p>

<p>"If racial preferences in admissions to the Ivies and the more than 100 other elite (Amherst., Williams, Vassar, Bryn Mar, etc..) colleges for White Anglo-Saxon Protestants were legally and morally wrong before WW II and the 1960s, then racial preferences for blacks and latinos are most morally wrong today."</p>

79

<p>voronwe, are you Asian?</p>

80

<p>Patientlywaiting, I'm afraid that your post contains an inherent paradox. The very nature of separating applicants into different pools depending on race and then having "intra-racial" competition for spots indirectly implies that one person of one race could be said to be taking the spot of another, because the question is why should one particular race be guaranteed a particular number of admission spots anyway? Sure, the connection is indirect, but it's still in there. If a school has 1000 open spots, and 1000 African-Americans apply and all of them are more qualified than every other applicant, then maybe all 1000 of those spots should go to those African-Americans. </p>

<p>Let me offer this analogy. If you try out for an NFL team you're not just competing for a spot on the roster against people who are only of your own race. You're competing against everybody who is trying to get a spot. Asians can't demand that an NFL team should pick them because they happen to be a very good football player for an Asian person. NFL teams don't have a separate bin where only the Asians are judged, and another bin where only the whites are judged, etc. If they want to get picked, then they have to be better than everybody else who's trying to get a spot, no matter what race. There's only one bin.</p>